Will our Head Scout have been scouting last night?

[Woodwardfan]

Will he have clocked the four loanees playing for Swindon with a view to signing one or more for next season.

A 33 year old full back from Wolves who can play centre half. Three Premier League quality youngsters who will not likely be wanted by their parent clubs in due course. Two very good central defenders to boot.

Will our Head Scout have noticed? I ask because they are the type of player he hasn't produced for us yet, either on loan or on contract.

MKD and Swindon get loads of them both on loan and on contract.

 

[Blade58]

Sorry but they aren't on the hit list

The net spreads as far as Derby, Blackpool and Scottish leagues only

 

[super_pig]

and the FIFA console game

 

[Toronto Blade]

The head scout spends his time scouting at the bottom of the garden looking for those little fellows wearing pointy hats and carrying spades tough to sign them they like to disappear .

 

[Russ]

He was there. With his red n white neckerchief.

 

[JJBlade]

Young, gifted players from the Premier League clubs wouldn't come here, they are only allowed to go to Swindon, MK Dons etc

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

Young, gifted players from the Premier League clubs wouldn't come here, they are only allowed to go to Swindon, MK Dons etc

Could that be the problem . Is Clough liked as much as Warnock was by his fellow football manager colleagues . We don't seem to have top premiership clubs throwing there up and coming young players at us , when we have a great academy , training facilities , and play football as god meant it to be played.

UTB

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

We got Coady last year from Liverpool.
A couple of years ago we had a number of loan players and the club was criticized for either not buying or not using our own young players. We either develop our own players, Reed, DSL etc or we buy.
Why should we develop Chelsea's players because they go around vacuuming all the young talent up so that they can own it but then have so many players that they can't play them? Let them rot in Chelsea and we will play players for the benefit of Sheffield United

 

[Bladesway]

Will he have clocked the four loanees playing for Swindon with a view to signing one or more for next season.

A 33 year old full back from Wolves who can play centre half. Three Premier League quality youngsters who will not likely be wanted by their parent clubs in due course. Two very good central defenders to boot.

Will our Head Scout have noticed? I ask because they are the type of player he hasn't produced for us yet, either on loan or on contract.

MKD and Swindon get loads of them both on loan and on contract.

Do you really want to see other people's players in our team? Particularly a 33 year old toward the end of his career? If our scouts started taking players like that on I would really start wondering what the fuck we were doing.

Anyhow I thought you were going to stop railing into Simon Clough? Only last week you said people found it tiresome.

 

[boo radley]

Are our Scouts really Brownies camping in Derbyshire?

 

[grafikhaus]

Could that be the problem . Is Clough liked as much as Warnock was by his fellow football manager colleagues?

...and...

We got Coady last year from Liverpool.

Yes and didn't Liverpool quote us £1.1m but eventually sold him to Huddersfield for £400k? There was also a spat with Steve Bruce over Maguire and a deal for a couple of (sigh) Derby players which collapsed. Could be that NC does rub other managers up the wrong way.*

A couple of years ago we had a number of loan players and the club was criticized for either not buying or not using our own young players. We either develop our own players, Reed, DSL etc or we buy.

But why should it be an 'either or'? Other teams have a good mix of regulars, developing youngsters and the odd quality loanee. As we saw last Sunday with D C-L (and possibly with Reedy), it takes time to ease youngsters in. And it's one thing looking tasty up at Shirecliffe but entirely another when thrown in against battle-hardened pros.

Why should we develop Chelsea's players because they go around vacuuming all the young talent up so that they can own it but then have so many players that they can't play them? Let them rot in Chelsea and we will play players for the benefit of Sheffield United

Because that's the way football is going. Look, we're not expecting an emryo Eden Hazard but we'd be insane to ignore the glut of extremely useful players out there who could help our cause. Preston got Beckford, Bradford got John Stead. MKD got Benik Afobe from Arsenal and - another way of doing things - MKD also sold Dele Alli to Spurs but got him back on loan for the (vital) last 3 months of the season. Is it really inconceivable that we couldn't have got Maguire back on loan as his career has utterly stalled? Or is (*) the reason?

 

[Cyprus Blade]

Weir got Coady last year from Liverpool.

fixed it for you.

 

[Blade58]

Young, gifted players from the Premier League clubs wouldn't come here, they are only allowed to go to Swindon, MK Dons etc

I think we have as much chance of getting these type of players as most other lower league clubs. The problem as I see it is that Clough doesn't go for them

The perception I get is that our scouting is very limited in the player network search and it has become a bit of a standing joke regards signing players who play for Derby or are ex Derby players, with the cheap Scottish leagues being the exception

Yes, after 20 odd signings there are going to be other exceptions, but we seem stunted in our target approach

Next season in this division doesn't bear thinking about. As for this bollox about stability, we've been stable for the past 18 months whilst Clough has been here. It's now time to change priorities and make promotion the priority

Is Clough up to it? On this seasons evidence absolutely not imo. I see more of the same next season and that would be a fkin travesty!

 

[grafikhaus]

I think we have as much chance of getting these type of players as most other lower league clubs. The problem as I see it is that Clough doesn't go for them

The perception I get is that our scouting is very limited in the player network search and it has become a bit of a standing joke regards signing players who play for Derby or are ex Derby players, with the cheap Scottish leagues being the exception

Our scouting network is so limited that when we cast our net, we dredge up some old jetsam that others have discarded.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

fixed it for you.

...and...



Yes and didn't Liverpool quote us £1.1m but eventually sold him to Huddersfield for £400k? There was also a spat with Steve Bruce over Maguire and a deal for a couple of (sigh) Derby players which collapsed. Could be that NC does rub other managers up the wrong way.*
Liverpool thought that they could get more they couldn't and eventually sold him to another club for less money. More an issue with Liverpool than Clough.
McGuire, we held out for the price we wanted and got it, again more of a Bruce issue than Clough.
I think Freeman was one of those players and that was because he wanted more money at that time. As he ended up here it obviously isn't an issue.



But why should it be an 'either or'? Other teams have a good mix of regulars, developing youngsters and the odd quality loanee. As we saw last Sunday with D C-L (and possibly with Reedy), it takes time to ease youngsters in. And it's one thing looking tasty up at Shirecliffe but entirely another when thrown in against battle-hardened pros.
Because Clough maybe has the remit to develop our players not other clubs. Agree there is a big difference but that's Clough's job to see who is ready and how they need to be eased into the 1st team.


Because that's the way football is going. Look, we're not expecting an emryo Eden Hazard but we'd be insane to ignore the glut of extremely useful players out there who could help our cause. Preston got Beckford, Bradford got John Stead. MKD got Benik Afobe from Arsenal and - another way of doing things - MKD also sold Dele Alli to Spurs but got him back on loan for the (vital) last 3 months of the season. Is it really inconceivable that we couldn't have got Maguire back on loan as his career has utterly stalled? Or is (*) the reason?

I again understand and partly agree with what you are saying, I just hate the fact that a club like Chelsea have something like 34 players out on loan...that is just ridiculous and there should be a rule restricting the number.
Maybe Clough thought that bringing Maguire back would ruin the team balance and harmony and did Maguire want to come back? He seemed to think that he was too good for us and Hull would probably prefer to loan him out to a Championship side..he had proved himself at League1

 

[dingledog]

It's clear NC is trying to form a SNP cell at the lane. They were the advanced group. Next season Nicola Surgeon (I know the spelling)and Alex Sea Trout, will be replacing the Prince and the Bishop. We are to play in blue and follow a bag pipe player into every attack, this will surely increase our speed of attack. The new pitch is to be planted with thistles. Worse of all Princess Ann will attend all games and the greasy chip butty will be replaced by flower of Scotland. You heard it here first.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Do you really want to see other people's players in our team? Particularly a 33 year old toward the end of his career? If our scouts started taking players like that on I would really start wondering what the fuck we were doing.

Anyhow I thought you were going to stop railing into Simon Clough? Only last week you said people found it tiresome.

Did I say that? I couldn't resist the live example of what I've been on about for months. In any case we have borrowed Davies and he is a prime example I have mentioned before of not aiming high enough (career goal record)

I wrote months ago about Swindon's recruitment policy and their young quality players and yes I do want to watch better quality players helping us succeed.

The two points you raise are good ones but:

1. Don't you think we should have done what Swindon did to cover our centre half situation? Then Brayford and Basham could have played in their intended roles and what difference that could have made? The loan system is there to use and this has been an emergency. Trouble is Clough wouldn't dare go back to the Board for even more money.

2. Use of the loan system is all about benefits to players and clubs. Swindon overdo it and will have to find more for next season with four or more players returning to their clubs at the end of the season. It's all about balance and of course we would have loved to have watched a couple of Coady quality players for the season, maybe Turnbull and Afobe, that sort. Then the big carrot of forming a relationship with the player and the manager and the player realising just how big a club we are with great fans just might lead to permanent signings, just like the three or more at Swindon. It didn't happen with Coady but should have, maybe he wasn't that bothered. Just for the record Weir signed Coady on loan.

 

[grafikhaus]

I again understand and partly agree with what you are saying, I just hate the fact that a club like Chelsea have something like 34 players out on loan...that is just ridiculous and there should be a rule restricting the number.
Maybe Clough thought that bringing Maguire back would ruin the team balance and harmony and did Maguire want to come back? He seemed to think that he was too good for us and Hull would probably prefer to loan him out to a Championship side..he had proved himself at League1

This is the big boy's 'scorched earth' policy - 'If we can't have them, nobody else can'. It makes sense and any hope of seeing a ruling against this is futile. Platini has deliberately skewed the game for the big boys and can't change things now. (How would he justify all those back handers?) However, having hoovered up all this promising talent, it is not in Chelsea, Man. City's etc. interests to maintain a huge wage bill so it's a good thing for them to farm these players out. Naturally, getting game-time is far better for these young guys than doing nothing. In a way, it's Darwin's Natural Law of Selection applied to football (something that has happened since sport was invented). So instead of crying 'woe is me!' we should be doing what just about every other club are doing and utilise this vast pool of talent to our own advantage. Just look at the players Wendy have borrowed - Ross Barkley, Kenwyn Jones, Lewis McGugan, Matt Fryatt, Conor Wickham (the latter preventing the pigs from getting relegated the other year). The only downside is that, having fallen in love with these guys (who obviously possess more talent that the normal selection), they are snatched away when the loans end. So be it. We've had similar with Matt Phillips and Billy Clark. Also Kyle Bartley.

Also, while these players are out on loan it's in their interests to bust a gut to impress the loaning club and also make a statement to the parent club. It's often the case that a player who impresses on loan suddenly drops his performance when the pressure is no longer on i.e. the loaning club buys him. (Others may wish to name names, I couldn't possibly comment...)

A final bonus is that, with clubs - especially in the PL - awash with money, for them to make a significant contribution to the player's wages is chicken feed.

So them's the rules. Let's utilise them!

As for 'would HM come back?' it's hard to say but he's often at BTDBL when he's not playing. I rather think that he's big enough to admit that his big-money move hasn't panned out as he hoped. A Sheffield lad, would he rather spend next season toiling at Wigan or in front of double the crowds with United?

 

[Bladesway]

1. Don't you think we should have done what Swindon did to cover our centre half situation? Then Brayford and Basham could have played in their intended roles and what difference that could have made? The loan system is there to use and this has been an emergency. Trouble is Clough wouldn't dare go back to the Board for even more money. Neither of us know that to be true. I would rather we had sorted out the centre half issue before the season started and not sold Harry but there you go. This is a weak area and it didn't need to be. Clough has to sort this out pre season whether we get promoted or not. If he doesn't he will be gone come October/November and not even supporters of him such as myself can say that is unfair.

2. Use of the loan system is all about benefits to players and clubs. Swindon overdo it and will have to find more for next season with four or more players returning to their clubs at the end of the season. It's all about balance and of course we would have loved to have watched a couple of Coady quality players for the season, maybe Turnbull and Afobe, that sort. Then the big carrot of forming a relationship with the player and the manager and the player realising just how big a club we are with great fans just might lead to permanent signings, just like the three or more at Swindon. It didn't happen with Coady but should have, maybe he wasn't that bothered. Just for the record Weir signed Coady on loan. Indeed Weir did sign Coady. I can't speak for Clough but assuming we don't go up (and I don't think we will) then he is in the last chance saloon. He has to sort the issues out but please remember one thing. We came to be in this position through years of horrible loans and mercenaries who stole a wage and gave nothing back. I would rather we took slightly longer and got it right with our own players than borrowed our way up. I know it isn't the popular stance but you asked me for my opinion.

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

1. Don't you think we should have done what Swindon did to cover our centre half situation? Then Brayford and Basham could have played in their intended roles and what difference that could have made? The loan system is there to use and this has been an emergency. Trouble is Clough wouldn't dare go back to the Board for even more money. Neither of us know that to be true. I would rather we had sorted out the centre half issue before the season started and not sold Harry but there you go. This is a weak area and it didn't need to be. Clough has to sort this out pre season whether we get promoted or not. If he doesn't he will be gone come October/November and not even supporters of him such as myself can say that is unfair.

2. Use of the loan system is all about benefits to players and clubs. Swindon overdo it and will have to find more for next season with four or more players returning to their clubs at the end of the season. It's all about balance and of course we would have loved to have watched a couple of Coady quality players for the season, maybe Turnbull and Afobe, that sort. Then the big carrot of forming a relationship with the player and the manager and the player realising just how big a club we are with great fans just might lead to permanent signings, just like the three or more at Swindon. It didn't happen with Coady but should have, maybe he wasn't that bothered. Just for the record Weir signed Coady on loan. Indeed Weir did sign Coady. I can't speak for Clough but assuming we don't go up (and I don't think we will) then he is in the last chance saloon. He has to sort the issues out but please remember one thing. We came to be in this position through years of horrible loans and mercenaries who stole a wage and gave nothing back. I would rather we took slightly longer and got it right with our own players than borrowed our way up. I know it isn't the popular stance but you asked me for my opinion.

Good post . The loan system if used has to be for the benefit of the club and more importantly the team. I am still of the belief if we didn't have so many medioca loans players the season we went down , we would have stayed up.

Its up to the manager to use a bit of business acumen in this repect. You sort your own team out first with youth and perminant transfers , then top it up with one or two outstanding loan players . We have never got this basic fundemental fact right , and may not in the future. Its all about risk IMO>

 

[Cyprus Blade]

getting game-time is far better for these young guys than doing nothing

I completely agree and the experience of playing in front of 20,000 crowds isn't readily available at most championship or any other Div 1 club. Putting it bluntly Weir had a good rep for bringing on and looking after young players, he had the contacts and Liverpool trusted him to look after players. The question for me is does NC have the same level of contacts, respect and reputation amongst permiership and top end championship clubs ?

 

[Silent Blade]

Why should we develop Chelsea's players because they go around vacuuming all the young talent up so that they can own it but then have so many players that they can't play them? Let them rot in Chelsea and we will play players for the benefit of Sheffield United

Our academy has been downgraded to Category B after the introduction of EPPP in 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

Since then, the more talented players are in the Category A Academies and in the next few years there will be more players from these clubs who are "more ready" for playing in FL matches than youngsters who were developed in Category B or C academies. I am disgusted that the PL have become more "powerful" when it comes to getting the more talented youngsters after the introduction of the EPPP and I have stated this many times in this forum

 

[bladesman3]

Did I say that? I couldn't resist the live example of what I've been on about for months. In any case we have borrowed Davies and he is a prime example I have mentioned before of not aiming high enough (career goal record)

I wrote months ago about Swindon's recruitment policy and their young quality players and yes I do want to watch better quality players helping us succeed.

The two points you raise are good ones but:

1. Don't you think we should have done what Swindon did to cover our centre half situation? Then Brayford and Basham could have played in their intended roles and what difference that could have made? The loan system is there to use and this has been an emergency. Trouble is Clough wouldn't dare go back to the Board for even more money.

2. Use of the loan system is all about benefits to players and clubs. Swindon overdo it and will have to find more for next season with four or more players returning to their clubs at the end of the season. It's all about balance and of course we would have loved to have watched a couple of Coady quality players for the season, maybe Turnbull and Afobe, that sort. Then the big carrot of forming a relationship with the player and the manager and the player realising just how big a club we are with great fans just might lead to permanent signings, just like the three or more at Swindon. It didn't happen with Coady but should have, maybe he wasn't that bothered. Just for the record Weir signed Coady on loan.

So true about Davies

 

[Woodwardfan]

Our academy has been downgraded to Category B after the introduction of EPPP in 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_Player_Performance_Plan

Since then, the more talented players are in the Category A Academies and in the next few years there will be more players from these clubs who are "more ready" for playing in FL matches than youngsters who were developed in Category B or C academies. I am disgusted that the PL have become more "powerful" when it comes to getting the more talented youngsters after the introduction of the EPPP and I have stated this many times in this forum

Just another step by the big clubs in stitching up the game. When they got the approval vote they bribed the smaller clubs with a cash increase they otherwise would not have got.

As though they didn't have enough power they even stitched up youth recruitment and cut down the opportunity for small clubs to supplement their income streams.

 

[Woodwardfan]

There is a sour taste when such as Beckford gets his third goal against Chesterfield in two semi-final play-off legs but it's all part and parcel of the game and means of getting promotion.

Ricketts scored against us too

 

[Davie Blade]

I completely agree and the experience of playing in front of 20,000 crowds isn't readily available at most championship or any other Div 1 club. Putting it bluntly Weir had a good rep for bringing on and looking after young players, he had the contacts and Liverpool trusted him to look after players. The question for me is does NC have the same level of contacts, respect and reputation amongst permiership and top end championship clubs ?

Absolutely, spot on
Nail in the coffin, I mean on the head.

 

[bartman]

Putting it bluntly Weir had a good rep for bringing on and looking after young players,

We were his first club as a manager so how could he have a 'good rep'?He was a disaster as a manager and many of the young players he brought in were poor (e.g. McGinty,John's etc). The only success was Coady but he obviously didn't look after him right and he only performed under Clough.

As for Clough, he has tried to avoid loam players which has been the failure of many of our managers before him. However he should have ensured we had centre half cover using the loan system.

 

[Bladesway]

Are our Scouts really Brownies camping in Derbyshire?

Brownie goes camping? I thought he drove a train.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

We were his first club as a manager so how could he have a 'good rep'?He was a disaster as a manager and many of the young players he brought in were poor (e.g. McGinty,John's etc). The only success was Coady but he obviously didn't look after him right and he only performed under Clough.

Whilst I do think that the constraints on Weir as a manager were much more stringent than those which NC has enjoyed, I am not arguing that Weir was a good manager. I am simply stating that, in terms of getting loan players, he did come to his first appointment with a good reputation from his work with younger players at Everton (modern methods, premiership standards,a general awareness of what premiership clubs look for and contacts at youth level throughout the premiership). That is what I meant by a good rep - nothing to do with Manager rep.

My question still stands - if a novice manager like Weir was able to land Coady (England u21 captain) on a long term loan, is NC held in sufficient regard regarding his methods, reputation, track record and contacts to secure the loan signings of high quality youngsters from the premiership on season long loans? I have yet to see anything that suggests the answer to that is a Yes, and I agree with you that it is something he doesn't appear to see a value in, unlike other Managers in our Division (including tonights opponents) who have successfully utilised high quality loan signings to good effect.

 

[borbokis]

Simon Clough was probably OK as a head scout at burton but this season has showed he isn't good enough at this level. In fact our recruitment policy has become something of an inside joke. I think clough would do a lot better with better players who also aren't constantly injured. For me clough should stay next season but the backroom staff needs looking at