Wilder - Get Rid Now, or After Last Game

[Nick Jansky]

Not arguing with your basic point, it's your opinion, which is fine. However, can you really call 1 year in prem and avoiding the drop to be "stable success"? We avoided the drop first season back in PL.

The difference between us and Sunderland avoiding the drop in the first season is stark. We were mainly relying on the squad that got promoted and was still riding a wave of momentum and playing a very specific brand of football that stopped being effective when one component was removed from it. It had got found out anyway, even if we hadn’t lost JOC. And the recruitment was dreadful.

Compare that with Sunderland’s recruitment. Technically excellent young athletes for the most part with loads of development ahead of them anchored by, in my view, the best signing of last summer in Granit Xhaka. The infrastructure they have put in place has set them up to sustain beyond the initial momentum and to continue to progress.

I am also going to say that they have an excellent manager with the tactical smarts to succeed in the PL. They were able to identify and recruit him. And when he eventually goes I believe the odds are that they will enjoy a smooth transition in the manner of Brentford and Bournemouth, but we will see.

 

[luffenhamblade]

I don’t disagree, just don’t think we can give that any credence until after at least their second season.

 

[KMC-1889]

Not arguing with your basic point, it's your opinion, which is fine. However, can you really call 1 year in prem and avoiding the drop to be "stable success"? We avoided the drop first season back in PL.

Do you not think both clubs win the championship at a canter if they did come down, like Leeds did last time?

 

[SBSP]

Season ticket renewal through this morning.

Confirm Wilder is going and you can have my money now.

 

[Rodley]

The difference between us and Sunderland avoiding the drop in the first season is stark. We were mainly relying on the squad that got promoted and was still riding a wave of momentum and playing a very specific brand of football that stopped being effective when one component was removed from it. It had got found out anyway, even if we hadn’t lost JOC. And the recruitment was dreadful.

Compare that with Sunderland’s recruitment. Technically excellent young athletes for the most part with loads of development ahead of them anchored by, in my view, the best signing of last summer in Granit Xhaka. The infrastructure they have put in place has set them up to sustain beyond the initial momentum and to continue to progress.

I am also going to say that they have an excellent manager with the tactical smarts to succeed in the PL. They were able to identify and recruit him. And when he eventually goes I believe the odds are that they will enjoy a smooth transition in the manner of Brentford and Bournemouth, but we will see.

Sunderland are paying decent wages. We never do when we go up. They were also gearing up to be a Premier League club off the pitch, we never have.

 

[metalblade]

I might be tempted to renew my ST if Thomas Frank was announced as manager before the end of the season.

 

[luffenhamblade]

Do you not think both clubs win the championship at a canter if they did come down, like Leeds did last time?

Yes, I do but then there tends to be a “surprise” team most seasons. I think the premise of the comment is absolutely valid just think it’s not as simple as that - another successful season for them and happy to concur.

 

[Nick Jansky]

Sunderland are paying decent wages. We never do when we go up. They were also gearing up to be a Premier League club off the pitch, we never have.

I don't know what Sunderland's current wage structure is. I do know we had a higher budget than them last season.

 

[Barney Rubble]

The difference between us and Sunderland avoiding the drop in the first season is stark. We were mainly relying on the squad that got promoted and was still riding a wave of momentum and playing a very specific brand of football that stopped being effective when one component was removed from it. It had got found out anyway, even if we hadn’t lost JOC. And the recruitment was dreadful.

Compare that with Sunderland’s recruitment. Technically excellent young athletes for the most part with loads of development ahead of them anchored by, in my view, the best signing of last summer in Granit Xhaka. The infrastructure they have put in place has set them up to sustain beyond the initial momentum and to continue to progress.

I am also going to say that they have an excellent manager with the tactical smarts to succeed in the PL. They were able to identify and recruit him. And when he eventually goes I believe the odds are that they will enjoy a smooth transition in the manner of Brentford and Bournemouth, but we will see.

Sunderland really replaced their director of football last Summer. Ghisolfi appears to have close ties to Le Fee. Prior to this they had Speakman, who has now left the club. I don't see anything wrong with this since I feel that they'd bobbled for a few years until they struck gold with Le Fee. (He was their ninth managerial appointment since they were relegated in 2017).

What impresses me is that they appear to have had a plan in place for what they were going to do differently once they got promoted. This involved being prepared to basically ditch the players that got them there and invest heavily in recruitment, upgrading their scouting system and smashing the wage structure.

We didn't really do any of this under the Prince and Wilder or Hecky and didn't have the financial resources to do so at that time. If we get into that situation again I really don't see Wilder as a manager who'd want to go down that road and whether our board has enough money to fund it remains to be seen.

 

[Tom Bott]

Sunderland & Leeds have a technical board and have cracked the code to building a strong championship club that can beat the drop in the premier league.

Both Sunderland and Forest spent around £ 140 million on players when promoted, presumably they also offered wage deals to match.
Do COH have that sort of money. (with a wish to spend/invest it) ?

Note to self, read all posts first.

 

[LBA_Blade]

Both Sunderland and Forest spent around £ 140 million on players when promoted, presumably they also offered wage deals to match.
Do COH have that sort of money. (with a wish to spend/invest it) ?

Doubtful, it's a chase the tail risk and reward, you go up you need better players but also better infrastructure, you come down, you need to balance and settle the squad and try and invest for promotion again but if you haven't invested in the infrastructure then you have missed the boat.

 

[KMC-1889]

Both Sunderland and Forest spent around £ 140 million on players when promoted, presumably they also offered wage deals to match.
Do COH have that sort of money. (with a wish to spend/invest it) ?

Note to self, read all posts first.

That’s about what we spent when we went up. The difference is we bought players like McBurnie, Ben Osborn, Luke Freeman and Robinsons Callum & Jack.

I’m just going to try and enjoy next season, I have no expectations of challenging for promotion, even with the expanded play offs. Even if we do manage to get promoted it’ll be another season of misery as we don’t have to people in the club to take advantage of the promotion.

 

[ancientblade]

Sunderland really replaced their director of football last Summer. Ghisolfi appears to have close ties to Le Fee. Prior to this they had Speakman, who has now left the club. I don't see anything wrong with this since I feel that they'd bobbled for a few years until they struck gold with Le Fee. (He was their ninth managerial appointment since they were relegated in 2017).

What impresses me is that they appear to have had a plan in place for what they were going to do differently once they got promoted. This involved being prepared to basically ditch the players that got them there and invest heavily in recruitment, upgrading their scouting system and smashing the wage structure.

We didn't really do any of this under the Prince and Wilder or Hecky and didn't have the financial resources to do so at that time. If we get into that situation again I really don't see Wilder as a manager who'd want to go down that road and whether our board has enough money to fund it remains to be seen.

we had a great first season in the premier league lets see how sunderland do in their 2nd season before we sing their praises

 

[joe casey]

That’s about what we spent when we went up. The difference is we bought players like McBurnie, Ben Osborn, Luke Freeman and Robinsons Callum & Jack.

I’m just going to try and enjoy next season, I have no expectations of challenging for promotion, even with the expanded play offs. Even if we do manage to get promoted it’ll be another season of misery as we don’t have to people in the club to take advantage of the promotion.

I'm not even sure we spent half of that did we? Minus Mcburnie and Berge at around 20m each The other fees only total about 30m from what I can see. Unless you're including the season after as well which might push us further to that number?

 

[Tarqs]

we had a great first season in the premier league lets see how sunderland do in their 2nd season before we sing their praises

If sunderland go down, they have plenty of players they could sell.

We had Ramsdale and Berge and that was your lot.

 

[Blade56]

That’s about what we spent when we went up. The difference is we bought players like McBurnie, Ben Osborn, Luke Freeman and Robinsons Callum & Jack.

Some of Wilders better signing efforts

 

[jt64]

Both Sunderland and Forest spent around £ 140 million on players when promoted, presumably they also offered wage deals to match.
Do COH have that sort of money. (with a wish to spend/invest it) ?

Note to self, read all posts first.

They would not be spending all that money in advance. Every deal these days is in installments. They would not need to be that cash rich in advance, and if you get relegated you can sell en masse and not have too much of a hit from amortisation (heck, some players might even get better and appreciate in value, it happens sometimes). If you stay up, the added revenue covers a huge chunk of the outlay. Literally the only doomsday scenario is if everyone you bring in tears their ACL or similar

 

[JayGreen17]

The difference between us and Sunderland avoiding the drop in the first season is stark. We were mainly relying on the squad that got promoted and was still riding a wave of momentum and playing a very specific brand of football that stopped being effective when one component was removed from it. It had got found out anyway, even if we hadn’t lost JOC. And the recruitment was dreadful.

Compare that with Sunderland’s recruitment. Technically excellent young athletes for the most part with loads of development ahead of them anchored by, in my view, the best signing of last summer in Granit Xhaka. The infrastructure they have put in place has set them up to sustain beyond the initial momentum and to continue to progress.

I am also going to say that they have an excellent manager with the tactical smarts to succeed in the PL. They were able to identify and recruit him. And when he eventually goes I believe the odds are that they will enjoy a smooth transition in the manner of Brentford and Bournemouth, but we will see.

Totally this, I said the same in another thread , or maybe in this I can’t be arsed to look but they are the blueprint.

 

[Alex Cheeseright]

Totally this, I said the same in another thread , or maybe in this I can’t be arsed to look but they are the blueprint.

And we are the misprint!!

 

[JayGreen17]

Both Sunderland and Forest spent around £ 140 million on players when promoted, presumably they also offered wage deals to match.
Do COH have that sort of money. (with a wish to spend/invest it) ?

Note to self, read all posts first.

It’s called business strategy and wise investment, the owners of Sunderland have not ploughed al that money in all at once on players, they will be periodically paid with sensible investment with a plan, at the minute COH don’t look like they have either which is very worrying. COH really need to be looking at the infrastructure and operational management of the club, to build the foundations to help us progress, this not safeguards the club to become future proof but also helps us progress the first team and hopefully to success.

Wilder gets 1 more season and whist the season plays out they need to be restructuring the club with 2 possibilities, with Wilder part of that and also without. If they don’t then we’re and they are fucked.

 

[Blade56]

From a reliable source but I trust no one….

Mee/McGuiness do not get on, Wilder and Mee have had big fall out and Tanganga didn’t want to sign.

Might be true, might not but dressing room issues?

 

[The Crab]

Going to put Mark Robins into the hat. Think with these players he will take us to the prem! Gets the best out of hamer and O'hare!

That reminds me, I have a busted flush at home too, probably need a plumber.

And oh yeah, Stoke are pretty shit

 

[Pedro Verde]

Let's say the Board announced Thomas Frank was taking over as manager for example , it might get the expectancy level up a bit ..

Its more likely to be Frank Thomas

 

[loveWalrusDaveTheBlade]

Its more likely to be Frank Thomas

Or Frank Spencer.

Oohhhh… Bettis…

 

[bartman]

From a reliable source but I trust no one….

Mee/McGuiness do not get on, Wilder and Mee have had big fall out and Tanganga didn’t want to sign.

Might be true, might not but dressing room issues?

There will be disagreements in all dressing gown rooms. Mee is a senior pro and will most likely be wondering why he isn't playing when we clearly have CH issues.

As for Tanganga not wanting to be signed by Selles ? Players (along with their agents )are mainly in control of who the sign for. He didn't have to leave Millwall and he didn't have to sign for us. In view of this, the 'reliable source' is clearly talking bollocks

 

[brownblade]

Sunderland are owned by a young billionaire. Their expenditure and modern approach tallies.

Regarding Wilder, he's not getting sacked controversially in the summer a second time - I really think we should probably drop the subject as a fan base. Unite. We absolutely need to improve the structure, appointing a Director of Football (or similar) role amongst potentially one or two others for a structure that isn't heavily dependent on the manager role.

I think we'd be better off heavily debating who could be Director of Football (Jags seems a smart, much loved, lad that's not jumping into management...?!).

 

[Nick Jansky]

Sunderland are owned by a young billionaire. Their expenditure and modern approach tallies.

Regarding Wilder, he's not getting sacked controversially in the summer a second time - I really think we should probably drop the subject as a fan base. Unite. We absolutely need to improve the structure, appointing a Director of Football (or similar) role amongst potentially one or two others for a structure that isn't heavily dependent on the manager role.

I think we'd be better off heavily debating who could be Director of Football (Jags seems a smart, much loved, lad that's not jumping into management...?!).

Our former player Simon Francis has done a fantastic job as Technical Director at Bournemouth for a few years now, so someone like Jags isn’t so far fetched.

 

[The Crab]

I think that going forward we need processes that are a bit less Wilder centric and it be more of a situation where you could drop a replacement manager in and with minimal tweaks the club can hopefully progress.

 

[Addison]

Sunderland are owned by a young billionaire. Their expenditure and modern approach tallies.

Regarding Wilder, he's not getting sacked controversially in the summer a second time - I really think we should probably drop the subject as a fan base. Unite. We absolutely need to improve the structure, appointing a Director of Football (or similar) role amongst potentially one or two others for a structure that isn't heavily dependent on the manager role.

I think we'd be better off heavily debating who could be Director of Football (Jags seems a smart, much loved, lad that's not jumping into management...?!).

There are a number of DOF options available. It just depends if there is a desire on the part of COH to effect change. Currently there isn't.

As for former players Leigh Bromby has made a good career as Sporting Director previously at Huddersfield and now Technical Recruitment Director at Derby. He has his own football management consultancy with former Norwich DOF Stuart Webber. They have placed a number of people in football positions. Exactly the type of forward thinking organisation COH should be contacting. If they prefer a fellow countryman as DOF Andrew Nestor has just left WBA. Also available former Sporting Directors are Paul Mitchell ex Newcastle and Sebastian Kehl ex Borussia Dortmund.

Even Luke Dowling ex DOF at Watford and WBA who had the good sense to walk away from our neighbours after a few weeks citing what a mess Chancer was making of the club is free.

While ever SUFC's operation is built solely around two individuals, Bettis and Wilder, innovative clubs like Sunderland will disappear off into the distance.

 

[54yrblade]

While ever SUFC's operation is built solely around two individuals, Bettis and Wilder, innovative clubs like Sunderland will disappear off into the distance.

Correct. Wilder and Bettis are more concerned about staying in place than us cracking on as a club. The current and recent ownerships have been the ideal environments to have that function for them both.