Why did Wilder scrap the overlapping centre backs for.......

[Cheeky Blade]

The overlapping centre halves wasn't his idea that's why.
It was Basham and O'Connell's idea, they probably got bollocked for doing it until Wilder realised he could take all the praise for it

If it was Wilder's idea why didn't he just find another Jack O'Connell, there are plenty of decent centre halves about that could be moulded into that role

It all ended when O'Connell's career was ended. We couldn't see that ever happening could we?

Think Knilly took the credit for coming up with this?

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Think Knilly took the credit for coming up with this?

And he's dined out on it ever since, has done nothing this season with dead balls or formations

 

[true99blade]

He’s been scrapping with Bash and JOC? Is there no end to his madness..?

 

[S64 Blade]

To be honest, where was he likely to find another Jack O’Connell? Tremendous signing and a tragic end to a career.

Not replacing Souttar was a big mistake but again, big shoes to fill.

Cannon and Clarke make little sense.

Big shoes to fill doesn’t mean you should do nothing.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Big shoes to fill doesn’t mean you should do nothing.

Obviously.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

There’s a reason he’s interested in Jimmy Dunne.

 

[BladeInIreland]

Still don't think it was ever "found out". We just stopped being able to do it without JOC. Although easier to defend against when you know we can only go down the right each time.

 

[alcoblade]

The power move that both he and Alan Knill developed got found out and we didn't have a plan B to replace it. We didn't abandon it.

We need to get away from putting it all on Wilder. He's only part of it, the good and the bad.

I think left footed marauding centre halves are a rarity - I don't think we got found out as such, just no longer had the players to do it once Jack O'Connell got crocked.

 

[alcoblade]

Still don't think it was ever "found out". We just stopped being able to do it without JOC. Although easier to defend against when you know we can only go down the right each time.

You beat me to it

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Still don't think it was ever "found out". We just stopped being able to do it without JOC. Although easier to defend against when you know we can only go down the right each time.

It also took a lot of drilling. It was effective because pretty much everyone had played it for a sustained period of time and knew their role inside out.
You can't establish that level of discipline at PL level with new players at the level we were able to attract. Just look at how some of the top sides are struggling to convert players to new styles that the coach wants to play for examples of this.

I can see us looking to go back to something similar if we stay down to create a more offensively creative side where you can really release the fullbacks (which we never really did, certainly down the right), and trust the 3 centre-halves and midfield to be tactically aware enough to keep it tight at the back too.
I think with Peck, Arblaster, Souza, there certainly is the base there for a flat 3, or I'd hope two deeper leaving a role behind a front two.

I know we've tried wider players this year but we've hardly been an huge threat from wide areas.

 

[Sheffsteel]

To be fair I doubt we could do it as good again without O'Connell and Basham's ability to overlap.

Agree….think it’s a falsehood how people say our tactic was rumbled.
All clubs knew our tactics in our 1st PL season as we’d played the exact same style for 3 years but they still couldn’t stop us.

Don’t think people realise how the overlapping centre was such a specialist role that few centre backs could ever play.
Let’s not forget Basham was average league 1 standard as a centre back in a back 4.
The Brentford fans said O’Connell was their 4th choice centre back at championship level in a back 4.
However both were excellent as playing as a full back, Basham had fantastic stamina comfortable filling into midfield and O’Connell could whip in a great cross.

We were lucky in that we had Basham and O’Connell who were both perfect for that role. They also had a full season perfecting the role with Basham/ Baldock forming a partnership down the right wing and Steven’s/ O’Connell forming a fantastic partnership down the left wing.

In our relegation season, Basham was out injured for 3 months and O’Connell was out for the full season….no wonder we struggled.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

I know we've tried wider players this year but we've hardly been an huge threat from wide areas.

Feels like they are coached not to cross the ball.

 

[MiserableBlader]

.......slow moving tediously boring football?
I know some say that we got rumbled in our second season a few years back but i would rather get a bit rumbled and see us attacking teams and having a go.
Any other reason he would abandon a free flowing attacking system?

Anybody who says 'we were rumbled' is a liar or a fool.
We had the same back 8 almost every week when we were promoted hence the results were based TOTALLY on a good defence.
Basham Egan OConnell
Baldock Lundstrum Norwood Fleck Stevens.
Look at the teams - only the front two ever changed, with little or no effect barring McDonkey.
Look at the scores - low goals scored every game

This was disrupted by Berge but destroyed by (nowadays seemingly inevitable) injuries.
With Wilder the imbecile wasting most of his money on inferior players in attacking positions we did not and could not replace key defenders except Bogle for Baldock - more attacking but less able defensively.
Our only strength was none existent any more.

All the evidence points to the fact that Wilder brought in so many to add to the quality he inherited (two cup semi's in two previous seasons) he stumbled on something that worked
Hence his abject failures when defensive injuries hit and everywhere since including this season as we shall see and all sane expected, especially after the new contract disaster.
Total control with a moronic sycophant Wednesdayite (or Leeds none Sheffield) local press (hence nobody asks the obvious questions you have) and totally ignorant ownership tells every sane person this will never change.

Does anyone really think he will attack tomorrow when it IS mathematically MUST WIN?
After all - this P ing about in your own box is 'winning football'
Just argue with Gormless Gobshite Giddens, Wednesdayites Stalin Statton, (Aimable) Buffoon Biggins or Thick as Pigshit PC Oxley is you want to be shouted down for ignorantly suggesting otherwise.
#WilderOut ASAP is the only way forward, literally and metaphorically.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

All of this we got found out it is bollocks we had a team of championship and leagues one players that were playing out of their skins week in week out and it just wasn't sustainable which is why they were championship and league one players, so eventually their performance levels went back their level and we dropped it wasnt tactics, wasn't wilder taking his foot off the gas, it was just the players had hit their ceiling and it wasn't sustainable

Yeah if you think about how many of that great side established themselves as premier league players afterwards too. Henderson and Berge really the only two to do so.

 

[MiserableBlader]

Feels like they are coached not to cross the ball.

THEY ARE.
Watch Wilder.
POSSESSION at all costs 'pass and control'
It seems only Hamer and Seriki are allowed to take players on let alone cross and they do it as there only way of playing. THANK GOD.
Watch when attackers like BBD are wasted in a 'right wing' position.
NEVER take a man on - just pass back to a fullback to pass across the back
And too and forth like the Chuckle Brothers but even less funny and entertaining.

 

[Danny_Blade]

If it didn't get found out then what happened?

I do think we were starting to tail off up to that first lockdown anyway and carried on when that season restarted hence we went from 5th to finishing down in 9th, league tables don't lie. A lot of Blades tend to say "well we didn't have fans in the ground anymore" but I say "it was the same for every club in the land" and this also is a biggie - we did have fans in the ground during the campaign last season in the PL, it didn't make a jot of difference in our players responding to it or of our season's fate did it?

JOC and Bash were probably in the form of their lives in the 2019/20 season and they were still fully fit and in the starting 11 in March 2020, but like I say the cracks were just starting to appear. JOC was permanently unavailable after the first match or two the following season, but can anyone explain what was starting to happen at the back end of the aforementioned first season in the PL?

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

If it didn't get found out then what happened?

I do think we were starting to tail off up to that first lockdown anyway and carried on when that season restarted hence we went from 5th to finishing down in 9th, league tables don't lie. A lot of Blades tend to say "well we didn't have fans in the ground anymore" but I say "it was the same for every club in the land" and this also is a biggie - we did have fans in the ground during the campaign last season in the PL, it didn't make a jot of difference in our players responding to it or of our season's fate did it?

JOC and Bash were probably in the form of their lives in the 2019/20 season and they were still fully fit and in the starting 11 in March 2020, but like I say the cracks were just starting to appear. JOC was permanently unavailable after the first match or two the following season, but can anyone explain what was starting to happen at the back end of the aforementioned first season in the PL?

Under skilled players relied on the hype and energy of the crowds. They played above themselves and fed off the energy to deliver much more than the sub of their parts.
A key part of that is killing the opposition crowds too, using that to increase the pressure they were feeling.
No fans, no energy to feed offs. No pressure on the oppo and they could play with more freedom. They had better players than we had in every position, better subs, more depth. Quality rather than coaching and effort rose to the top.

 

[Tom Bott]

The way we played then was very high energy and the game has since changed for two reasons:
1) additional subs increased to 5 per game
2) more added time with games often having 5 mins end of first half and 10 second half

Both mean squads are required to be more competitive with the depth being almost two first teams. We’ve not had the resources to compete and have 2 spare overlapping centre halves on the bench.

Losing O’Connell and much later, Bash meant we’d lost the players capable of the defensive and attacking aspects

We’ve never quite replaced them, Anel was a good start but he doesn’t have the same engine

Good to see some factual accuracy, shown with workings.

It'll never catch on though because there is no blame implied or otherwise for the Wilder out mob.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

The way we played then was very high energy and the game has since changed for two reasons:
1) additional subs increased to 5 per game
2) more added time with games often having 5 mins end of first half and 10 second half

Both mean squads are required to be more competitive with the depth being almost two first teams. We’ve not had the resources to compete and have 2 spare overlapping centre halves on the bench.

Losing O’Connell and much later, Bash meant we’d lost the players capable of the defensive and attacking aspects

We’ve never quite replaced them, Anel was a good start but he doesn’t have the same engine

Exactly this. As we've discussed before the game came out of Covid much more athletic and physical, and we never adapted (and still haven't). The formation/players made very little difference (although the sight of Ampadu, Norwood, Kean Bryan, Robinson in the PL still sends shivers)...

A lot gets discussed about this and JOC's injury, but every time it misses the fact that we were unable to match the opposition physically that season. It especially showed last season when we made it back to the PL.

I shudder at how the likes of Hamer and OHare will cope against much bigger, faster, fitter players, if by some miracle we make it back....

 

[Danny_Blade]

Under skilled players relied on the hype and energy of the crowds. They played above themselves and fed off the energy to deliver much more than the sub of their parts.
A key part of that is killing the opposition crowds too, using that to increase the pressure they were feeling.
No fans, no energy to feed offs. No pressure on the oppo and they could play with more freedom. They had better players than we had in every position, better subs, more depth. Quality rather than coaching and effort rose to the top.

The team we had last season was full of under-skilled players and with fans in the stadium.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

The team we had last season was full of under-skilled players and with fans in the stadium.

Sorry Danny but I’m not sure what point you’re making? Last years squad wasn’t drilled in the formation, wasn’t really settled over a number of season, didn’t play overlapping centre halves or even try to, and wasn’t anywhere near as capable as the one we had the first time we were promoted.

 

[SwissBlade]

Exactly this. As we've discussed before the game came out of Covid much more athletic and physical, and we never adapted (and still haven't). The formation/players made very little difference (although the sight of Ampadu, Norwood, Kean Bryan, Robinson in the PL still sends shivers)...

A lot gets discussed about this and JOC's injury, but every time it misses the fact that we were unable to match the opposition physically that season. It especially showed last season when we made it back to the PL.

I shudder at how the likes of Hamer and OHare will cope against much bigger, faster, fitter players, if by some miracle we make it back....

It’s thankfully not just us. It’s something which is a problem for all promoted clubs. However, the money in the game means that those same clubs will always panic and replace managers in the hope of changing something.

As you say, it was hard enough that first season with the physicality and obviously the Covid break was not good for us, but Klopp got his way on the additional subs to gain that advantage.

 

[Sharp as a blade]

The "found out" line really makes me laugh.

We played the system for about 4 years. Did teams not scout us at all during that time? .

You really think premier league managers turned up against us every week going "whoa what's this, their CB's are going forward" despite it being mentioned on MOTD and sky sports almost every week.

As others have said. We lost Oconell. We then couldn't switch the ball quickly and go down the left and it made us very one dimensional.

We were a well drilled machine during that period. We lost one of our most important cogs and didn't have the individual talent to make up for it. That's it.

 

[Panini]

.......slow moving tediously boring football?
I know some say that we got rumbled in our second season a few years back but i would rather get a bit rumbled and see us attacking teams and having a go.
Any other reason he would abandon a free flowing attacking system?

We had some fantastic times and probably the best memories most of our lifetimes will see, but the idea we were ever a free flowing attacking side under Wilder is a huge false memory.

The biggest single difference Wilder has made to how we set up is switching from 2 up front to 1, and he hasn't adapted any other part of our set up to support that change. That's why we so often end up with nobody attacking on the left and numerous players looking out of position on the right.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

.......slow moving tediously boring football?
I know some say that we got rumbled in our second season a few years back but i would rather get a bit rumbled and see us attacking teams and having a go.
Any other reason he would abandon a free flowing attacking system?

Yes, for any team to have the slightest chance of surviving in the Prem, you have to carry some sort of threat. Our overlapping centre backs at the time were that threat and opposing defences were worried about it. Unfortunately our best exponent of this tactic got injured…and we were never quite the same again. Unfortunately in subsequent seasons “five at the back” has been used as a defensive strategy, which totally extinguished any sort of threat we had. That is why most of our games last season just ended up being an attack versus defence scenario.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

If it didn't get found out then what happened?

I do think we were starting to tail off up to that first lockdown anyway and carried on when that season restarted hence we went from 5th to finishing down in 9th, league tables don't lie. A lot of Blades tend to say "well we didn't have fans in the ground anymore" but I say "it was the same for every club in the land" and this also is a biggie - we did have fans in the ground during the campaign last season in the PL, it didn't make a jot of difference in our players responding to it or of our season's fate did it?

JOC and Bash were probably in the form of their lives in the 2019/20 season and they were still fully fit and in the starting 11 in March 2020, but like I say the cracks were just starting to appear. JOC was permanently unavailable after the first match or two the following season, but can anyone explain what was starting to happen at the back end of the aforementioned first season in the PL?

If it didn't get found out then what happened?

I do think we were starting to tail off up to that first lockdown anyway and carried on when that season restarted hence we went from 5th to finishing down in 9th, league tables don't lie. A lot of Blades tend to say "well we didn't have fans in the ground anymore" but I say "it was the same for every club in the land" and this also is a biggie - we did have fans in the ground during the campaign last season in the PL, it didn't make a jot of difference in our players responding to it or of our season's fate did it?

JOC and Bash were probably in the form of their lives in the 2019/20 season and they were still fully fit and in the starting 11 in March 2020, but like I say the cracks were just starting to appear. JOC was permanently unavailable after the first match or two the following season, but can anyone explain what was starting to happen at the back end of the aforementioned first season in the PL?

We weren’t starting to tail off before the first Covid lockdown. Unless you class narrow defeats to the two best teams in the league as tailing off (Man City twice and Liverpool once).

Against all other teams after losing to Newcastle in early December it was 7 wins and 3 draws in the Premier League.

Our best sequence of results of the season / previous 25 years.

 

[ISZA ⚔️]

My thoughts on it at the time was he was trying to ready us for becoming defensively solid for the following season in the PL. Abysmal to watch though.

 

[Tanny1889]

End of the day they rested on their laurels and didn’t try to find suitable replacements, it could have continued to work even if not ‘overlapping’. Palace are having great success using a 3 to this day, so it’s not like it doesn’t work, it’s just our recruitment was awful

 

[Thrice]

End of the day they rested on their laurels and didn’t try to find suitable replacements, it could have continued to work even if not ‘overlapping’. Palace are having great success using a 3 to this day, so it’s not like it doesn’t work, it’s just our recruitment was awful

It is still a good system if you have the right players for it. But you need the right wing-backs and 3 defenders that are good with the ball at their feet.

But I think it's obvious that Wilder prefers a back 4 now. He quickly switched to a back 4 when he came back and I think the only reason we played a back 3 this year was out of necessity because the RB's weren't good enough defensively. Problem is, Mee and McGuinness are absolutely not the right players for a back 3.

I expect a RB at the top of Wilder's shopping list for January.

 

[Kenilworth]

This, mainly.

We haven’t had the players to do it. And neither do many squads, to be fair. How many proper centre halves can anyone think of, who could run a wing and cross a ball like Jack O’Connell?

I think the “we got found out” line is overplayed. We were beyond repair in the Prem in 2020/21 for many reasons other than “being found out” on wide overloads. Though it’s certainly the case that some (not all) oppo managers learned how to cope with it eventually. Bielsa, for example, worked out how to counter it as early as our Champ home game against the Dirties in 2018/19.

Another reason we’ve given it up is that Wilder clearly deeply resented the suggestion that this was the only way he could coach/play. His first game back in charge, last season, when he went 4 at the back, was transparently a response to that.

So, his ego was a reason for giving it up, as much as it was a reason for sticking with it beyond its sell-by date back in the day? I wouldn’t dare suggest anything so inflammatory, in today’s polarised Widler culture wars climate.

Started off so well about the O’Connell and Basham scenario. It went to shit because O’Connell was injured and he was irreplaceable in that formation.

But the ego thing about not wanting to go back to it is a tired and lazy trope. Wilder would absolutely go back to that system if he had the personnel to do so. Not saying he’s be playing it every game because the modern way is to alter the formation depending on a) the opponents you are facing and their strengths you wish to counter, and b) whether you’re in possession or out of possession.

Quite simply, the reason it all went to shit was to do with players being injured and not having the wedge to spend to replace with equivalent quality.

As proof - remember Kean Bryan?