Whiteman returns

[TarquinDelouche]

We can't have Whiteman and Blackman in the same team, it'll cause a rupture in the space-time continuum and may even be a sign of the coming apocalypse.

Not until we sign four players called Horseman.

 

[Tunstall Fred]

True Fred and like in the late 80's early 90's we'll have to hope Wilder can sign players that are gems for not very much or loan players who can hit the ground running who are likely to be young pros like CCV, who has done well but also makes mistakes that have cost us. Wilder's done it many times before but I'd rather see him given a greater chance this time.

Well in the years you speak of,we got promoted 2 years on the trot,and finished in a healthy position in the top league,so I will settle for that,much better than splashing the cash on someone like Jordan Rhodes for me

 

[Booker4]

What if Wilder only wants Leonard and 3 loans? Has he said he wants more than that?

Who does Wilder want for 3-5 million? Where is this money coming from?

Wilder has said of course he wants more, but he will squeeze everything he can out of the budget. If that isn't an indication that the budget is tight and modest than what is?

Who knows who Wilder would want if he had more money but I would guess knowing Wilder they'd be decent. Other than income we generate, sell on fees of former players, which in both cases is no doubt gone on existing expenditure it comes from McCabe and the Prince. The think Liverpool quote should have been more like "think Preston", who ironically have already signed a permanent player this January.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

Pinchy has just turned a deep shade of puce

I imagine we've recalled him to send him elsewhere (presumably Sarthend).

Well this is where Pinchy has a problem because he doesn’t form his own opinion just says what ‘Tufty’ says. So in theory if ‘Tufty ‘ has brought him back then Pinchy agrees, despite all his previous negative comments

 

[LJBlade]

Wilder has said of course he wants more, but he will squeeze everything he can out of the budget. If that isn't an indication that the budget is tight and modest than what is?

Who knows who Wilder would want if he had more money but I would guess knowing Wilder they'd be decent. Other than income we generate, sell on fees of former players, which in both cases is no doubt gone on existing expenditure it comes from McCabe and the Prince. The think Liverpool quote should have been more like "think Preston", who ironically have already signed a permanent player this January.

So does Wilder feel like he isn't being backed or are you just assuming this?

If we get the 1 permanent and 3 loans in that Wilder has said he wants will you still feel he hasn't been backed?

 

[Pedro's Winger]

Wilder has said of course he wants more, but he will squeeze everything he can out of the budget. If that isn't an indication that the budget is tight and modest than what is?

Who knows who Wilder would want if he had more money but I would guess knowing Wilder they'd be decent. Other than income we generate, sell on fees of former players, which in both cases is no doubt gone on existing expenditure it comes from McCabe and the Prince. The think Liverpool quote should have been more like "think Preston", who ironically have already signed a permanent player this January.

Preston, one of our rivals, have signed two players this week.

 

[Booker4]

Well in the years you speak of,we got promoted 2 years on the trot,and finished in a healthy position in the top league,so I will settle for that,much better than splashing the cash on someone like Jordan Rhodes for me

Yes but we established ourselves in the Prem (solely thanks to Harry not the board)and than threw it away by selling Deane (fair enough, he needed to go to a bigger stage, shame it was Leeds but that's nit picking) and expecting Harry to sign an equivalent player to Deane, which was what was needed to stay up. It was never going to happen and the rest is history. Harry was on holiday which says it all.

As for Rhodes, I'm not saying we need to spend 8 million on one player, but surely we need more than has been mentioned on loans and taking months to get a player from League One who we needed in the summer, especially given the injuries we've had to Coutts and Brooks.

 

[Booker4]

So does Wilder feel like he isn't being backed or are you just assuming this?

If we get the 1 permanent and 3 loans in that Wilder has said he wants will you still feel he hasn't been backed?

Only a few people know that, I'm not one of them but whatever Wilder thinks I don't think we are backing him, I've given my reasons mate. Maybe I'll be proven wrong but I doubt it.

 

[Tunstall Fred]

Yes but we established ourselves in the Prem (solely thanks to Harry not the board)and than threw it away by selling Deane (fair enough, he needed to go to a bigger stage, shame it was Leeds but that's nit picking) and expecting Harry to sign an equivalent player to Deane, which was what was needed to stay up. It was never going to happen and the rest is history. Harry was on holiday which says it all.

As for Rhodes, I'm not saying we need to spend 8 million on one player, but surely we need more than has been mentioned on loans and taking months to get a player from League One who we needed in the summer, especially given the injuries we've had to Coutts and Brooks.

We need whatever Chris Wilder deems necessary and within the budget he has been given,thinking we are going to be spending £5 million this JTW is setting yourself up for disappointment

 

[BushBlade]

Yes but we established ourselves in the Prem (solely thanks to Harry not the board)and than threw it away by selling Deane (fair enough, he needed to go to a bigger stage, shame it was Leeds but that's nit picking) and expecting Harry to sign an equivalent player to Deane, which was what was needed to stay up. It was never going to happen and the rest is history. Harry was on holiday which says it all.

As for Rhodes, I'm not saying we need to spend 8 million on one player, but surely we need more than has been mentioned on loans and taking months to get a player from League One who we needed in the summer, especially given the injuries we've had to Coutts and Brooks.

It's a completely different scenario to when we sold Deane. Bassett wasn't given the majority of the money to find a replacement. I'm being cautious in what I say here as I've got no intention of being sued but things were not right at the club at the time.

 

[LJBlade]

Only a few people know that, I'm not one of them but whatever Wilder thinks I don't think we are backing him, I've given my reasons mate. Maybe I'll be proven wrong but I doubt it.

But going back to my original question, what would 'prove you wrong' in your eyes? You said spending £3-5m which is unrealistic and isn't something that Wilder would expect anyway. He's always said that he doesn't want to waste the clubs money so it could be argued he doesn't want £3m-5m anyway, at least while we don't actually have that money.

My other point was that you're going to claim that you were right and that we aren't backing Wilder if we don't spend £3m-5m but you've no idea if he's even asked for that much. He's said he's looking to get 1 permanent and 3 loans but he hasn't said that he's only after this because he isn't being backed. What if Wilder does feel he is being backed? Are you still going to disagree?

 

[LoughboroBlade]

He did play at right wing-back under Adkins as you say. He was rubbish.

The Southend game, after he’d been doing ok in midfield. Not a good move by Adkins, as he was horrendous that night. In fact wasn’t it Marty Done one the opposite flank? Yikes.

 

[Booker4]

It's a completely different scenario to when we sold Deane. Bassett wasn't given the majority of the money to find a replacement. I'm being cautious in what I say here as I've got no intention of being sued but things were not right at the club at the time.

Its documented about the problems at the time re Woolhouse, and yes it is different, but what's not different is that Wilder isn't being backed, unlike Warnock was in 2006/07 when we did go for it with the signings of Akinbiyi, Horsfield (don't say they didn't come off as Akinbiyi's contribution in those limited games was huge), Ifill - scored 10 goals from the wing - and the large wages on established players Shipperley and Short. Yes we had some free transfers in there like Quinn and Bromby but we still spent some decent money that season and low and behold we got promoted, over Leeds who spent more but would we really have finished 2nd without the expenditure? I very much doubt it.

Compared that to now and we're in a similar position - or were until we got injuries to our threadbare squad - and Wilder this summer signed free transfers, loans, two League One players for between 300,000 and 700,000 and a center forward for 50,000 and its quite frankly staggering that we're where we are - all due to Wilder and Knill. Yes it proves you don't to spend silly money like Derby and the pigs have and I understood the caution in the summer but now we should be going for it more this January. I'm making the same points to different people here so we'll have to respectively agree to disagree. I respect your view but I don't agree with it, or the lack of funding from two owners.

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

So to conclude, we have an academy. We neither:

1. Use the players who come through the academy (i.e. Whiteman), nor;
2. Use the money selling those players generates to boost the squad (i.e. Walker, Maguire).

 

[BushBlade]

Its documented about the problems at the time re Woolhouse, and yes it is different, but what's not different is that Wilder isn't being backed, unlike Warnock was in 2006/07 when we did go for it with the signings of Akinbiyi, Horsfield (don't say they didn't come off as Akinbiyi's contribution in those limited games was huge), Ifill - scored 10 goals from the wing - and the large wages on established players Shipperley and Short. Yes we had some free transfers in there like Quinn and Bromby but we still spent some decent money that season and low and behold we got promoted, over Leeds who spent more but would we really have finished 2nd without the expenditure? I very much doubt it.

Compared that to now and we're in a similar position - or were until we got injuries to our threadbare squad - and Wilder this summer signed free transfers, loans, two League One players for between 300,000 and 700,000 and a center forward for 50,000 and its quite frankly staggering that we're where we are - all due to Wilder and Knill. Yes it proves you don't to spend silly money like Derby and the pigs have and I understood the caution in the summer but now we should be going for it more this January. I'm making the same points to different people here so we'll have to respectively agree to disagree. I respect your view but I don't agree with it, or the lack of funding from two owners.

The championship was very different in those days, it wasn't full of foreign billionaires and clubs on large parachute payments and we weren't seventh. KM tried to fund those transfers by a new share issue that he underwrote but, if I recall correctly, had to pick up some of the cost due to a poor take up.

 

[Pinchy]

I like the boy Pinch it's just that I don't understand his reaction to David Bassett,

Fond of you too mate. I think if we were to chat at greater length, preferably in the Kelham Island area of this city over a pint, then you would understand how I feel about Bassett. It’s more multi-layered and nuanced than the shorthand I use on here owing to limitation of time.

Even if we didn’t agree, you’d certainly understand more.

 

[bertieblade]

We should have more funds available to wilder but whilst ever we have what appears to be different views on the way to take the club forward we will not progress.
The prince has gone on record to say that he will back his very good manager in the transfer window, McCabe has been conspicuance by his absence.
I believe wilder has had to work miracles to hang onto his best players in the hope that our owners can sort out their differences before the start of the new season, McCabe hopes Wilder may possibly work miracles and take us up.
From the outside looking in, McCabe wants to sell but wants too much and is not prepared to put any more in. Without the money from the sell ons we would be royally shafted, mind do we get the money from the sell on agreements, does it exist?

 

[Pinchy]

Preston, one of our rivals, have signed two players this week.

Are they players in whom we were interested? If so, it has some relevance. If not; none at all.

Keep trying.

Erm...

Well, no. Don’t.

 

[Booker4]

But going back to my original question, what would 'prove you wrong' in your eyes? You said spending £3-5m which is unrealistic and isn't something that Wilder would expect anyway. He's always said that he doesn't want to waste the clubs money so it could be argued he doesn't want £3m-5m anyway, at least while we don't actually have that money.

My other point was that you're going to claim that you were right and that we aren't backing Wilder if we don't spend £3m-5m but you've no idea if he's even asked for that much. He's said he's looking to get 1 permanent and 3 loans but he hasn't said that he's only after this because he isn't being backed. What if Wilder does feel he is being backed? Are you still going to disagree?

3-5 million is unrealistic? Only at S2. Many other clubs in the top half and many in the bottom half have spent money such as this in one window and although it hasn't come off for most of them, they don't have Chris Wilder as manager do they, who is quite frankly the best manager in the league.

As I said mate, I have no idea what Wilder thinks of the budget, I'm not a personal friend or ITK, and I'd guess (pretty confidently) that he doesn't get to ask for a budget - he gets told what the budget is and his job id to get the best out of it. I very much doubt McCabe and the Prince etc have said how much do you want, do you? It's likely that they've said here's what we can spend on wages and combined transfer fees, get the best out of it. He'll then come up with the list of players for the budget he has. Would you agree mate here? Surely you're not suggesting that Wilder said to the board I want Leonard and three loans? He stated that given the budget, permanent signings weren't going to improve the squad. That says it all to me and its a gamble whether we can get the right loans in.

Whether he is happy with it I don't know but its when you compare ourselves to other clubs you really see how little he is being backed. Thankfully Wilder/Knill and the scouting team have done exceptionally well and proved you don't need to spend like Derby and Boro but I'd like to see Wilder given a larger budget - whether he's happy or not is secondary.

 

[Stretch]

Good decision to bring him back in my opinion, for a couple of reasons.

1) Whatever happens in terms of transfers over the next few weeks we are still short of numbers. Midfield is pitifully undermanned so having another option as back-up is very welcome.

2) The lad should be in confident mood; the Donny fans have mixed views on him but he has scored some big goals for them and Ferguson clearly backed him. Once Wilder taps into that we could have another quality midfield option. Certainly a few more goals would be welcome from that part of the pitch.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Fond of you too mate. I think if we were to chat at greater length, preferably in the Kelham Island area of this city over a pint, then you would understand how I feel about Bassett. It’s more multi-layered and nuanced than the shorthand I use on here owing to limitation of time.

Even if we didn’t agree, you’d certainly understand more.

Good luck with that one Fred. Whatever you do, don't change the subject to attendances or Monty.

 

[bertieblade]

Surprised that pinchy has not suggested meeting in Norway?

 

[itsinyerblood]

Fond of you too mate. I think if we were to chat at greater length, preferably in the Kelham Island area of this city over a pint, then you would understand how I feel about Bassett. It’s more multi-layered and nuanced than the shorthand I use on here owing to limitation of time.

Even if we didn’t agree, you’d certainly understand more.

Speaking of nuance, Tunstall Fred, why don't you just put a ring on Pinchy's finger? Never mind this shilly-shallying, never mind the carefully coded language, embrace, let your lips tell you both all you need to know, after all, we're all Blades aren't we???

 

[Pinchy]

Its documented about the problems at the time re Woolhouse, and yes it is different, but what's not different is that Wilder isn't being backed, unlike Warnock was in 2006/07 when we did go for it with the signings of Akinbiyi, Horsfield (don't say they didn't come off as Akinbiyi's contribution in those limited games was huge), Ifill - scored 10 goals from the wing - and the large wages on established players Shipperley and Short. Yes we had some free transfers in there like Quinn and Bromby but we still spent some decent money that season and low and behold we got promoted, over Leeds who spent more but would we really have finished 2nd without the expenditure? I very much doubt it.

Compared that to now and we're in a similar position - or were until we got injuries to our threadbare squad - and Wilder this summer signed free transfers, loans, two League One players for between 300,000 and 700,000 and a center forward for 50,000 and its quite frankly staggering that we're where we are - all due to Wilder and Knill. Yes it proves you don't to spend silly money like Derby and the pigs have and I understood the caution in the summer but now we should be going for it more this January. I'm making the same points to different people here so we'll have to respectively agree to disagree. I respect your view but I don't agree with it, or the lack of funding from two owners.

You argue your corner well and generally avoid the lunacy and near-defamation of those serving an agenda. I share your aspirations and some of your sentiments in fact, but what is the solution if our begging the owners to spend proves to be in vain?

I’m quite sure Kev and HRH would be more than receptive to additional investors provided (and this is crucial) they have the best interests of our club at heart. Why wouldn’t they? Their only hope of ‘recouping investment’ let alone making any dosh, is to take the tarnished yellow brick road to the Premiership where “Oz” Murdoch distributes the lucre.

 

[Pinchy]

Good luck with that one Fred. Whatever you do, don't change the subject to attendances or Monty.

Oh, you’re okay most of the time, yourself. Join the party...

 

[LJBlade]

3-5 million is unrealistic? Only at S2. Many other clubs in the top half and many in the bottom half have spent money such as this in one window and although it hasn't come off for most of them, they don't have Chris Wilder as manager do they, who is quite frankly the best manager in the league.

As I said mate, I have no idea what Wilder thinks of the budget, I'm not a personal friend or ITK, and I'd guess (pretty confidently) that he doesn't get to ask for a budget - he gets told what the budget is and his job id to get the best out of it. I very much doubt McCabe and the Prince etc have said how much do you want, do you? It's likely that they've said here's what we can spend on wages and combined transfer fees, get the best out of it. He'll then come up with the list of players for the budget he has. Would you agree mate here? Surely you're not suggesting that Wilder said to the board I want Leonard and three loans? He stated that given the budget, permanent signings weren't going to improve the squad. That says it all to me and its a gamble whether we can get the right loans in.

Whether he is happy with it I don't know but its when you compare ourselves to other clubs you really see how little he is being backed. Thankfully Wilder/Knill and the scouting team have done exceptionally well and proved you don't need to spend like Derby and Boro but I'd like to see Wilder given a larger budget - whether he's happy or not is secondary.

Yes it's unrealistic. I asked you where the money would come from and you couldn't answer other than saying McCabe should pay it. We know this isn't going to happen and therefore it's unrealistic. What others have spent doesn't make a jot of difference and the fact that many of those who have spent a lot more than £3m-5m are struggling shows you should be cautious when spending money you don't have.

Regardless of whether Wilder wants more than 1 permanent and 3 loans (he could have asked for that, you've no idea) it doesn't mean that he doesn't feel as if he's being backed.

My main point is that you don't know the details behind anything you are claiming and yet you've immediately taken the most negative stance possible. Wilder isn't being backed because were aren't spending millions! "What if he hasn't asked for millions?". Well other teams are spending millions!

Hasn't Wilder said before that he won't be spending big sums? Does that sound like the sort of person who expects us to chuck millions (that we don't have) at a January transfer window? Other than Leonard (so far) which players has Wilder wanted that the board haven't managed to get because they won't back him?

 

[Pedro's Winger]

Yes it's unrealistic. I asked you where the money would come from and you couldn't answer other than saying McCabe should pay it. We know this isn't going to happen and therefore it's unrealistic. What others have spent doesn't make a jot of difference and the fact that many of those who have spent a lot more than £3m-5m are struggling shows you should be cautious when spending money you don't have.

Regardless of whether Wilder wants more than 1 permanent and 3 loans (he could have asked for that, you've no idea) it doesn't mean that he doesn't feel as if he's being backed.

My main point is that you don't know the details behind anything you are claiming and yet you've immediately taken the most negative stance possible. Wilder isn't being backed because were aren't spending millions! "What if he hasn't asked for millions?". Well other teams are spending millions!

Hasn't Wilder said before that he won't be spending big sums? Does that sound like the sort of person who expects us to chuck millions (that we don't have) at a January transfer window? Other than Leonard (so far) which players has Wilder wanted that the board haven't managed to get because they won't back him?

A manager at a club our size who has more than proven himself would expect reasonable support in the transfer window.
Given the rise in income this season (running into eight figures) and the potential prize (and money on offer) it's common sense.

 

[Booker4]

The championship was very different in those days, it wasn't full of foreign billionaires and clubs on large parachute payments and we weren't seventh. KM tried to fund those transfers by a new share issue that he underwrote but, if I recall correctly, had to pick up some of the cost due to a poor take up.

Whether its now, ten years ago, the 80's or even further back, more money gives you a higher chance of succeeding in football. There weren't the foreign owners then like now, but the point still stands that Warnock was backed and we got promoted. Without the signings I mentioned I think Leeds would have pipped us, who didn't have a foreign owner or parachute money, but they backed Blackwell and we pipped them because we had the better manager who was also backed. We're only where we are now because of Wilder ad Knill and their skill at identifying players who are overlooked by other clubs at our level other than the likes of Barnsley and Milwall who have to fish in a similar pond, such as League One and Scotland. We are 7th and have been 2nd for large parts and are far bigger clubs than Milwall and Barnsley but the expenditure is similar, but they don't have Wilder in charge and have the pulling power that we have as a big club. If you deny this then you deny Wilder's interview today and before where he has stated we are no where near big spenders in the league or on wages. We don't want money grabbers, but we do want to attract players that we currently can't. Don't ask me for names but its obvious we can't compete with teams around us, and rely on up and coming players from League One, who other clubs in the top 10 won't go for because they can afford a higher transfer for players, although thankfully not necessarily better.

As for the Academy you mentioned, in reality the only players that have made it for us have gone onto be Premier League level or above. Is Ben going to be that level, maybe, but he isn't ready now to take the place of Brooks, Fleck or Lunny. Is he going to be good enough as a sub? Maybe, but I'd rather us spend on Leonard; a player who has over 300 league games under his belt and two player of the season awards in the last two seasons for Southend. Now isn't the time to rely on Ben Whiteman as a substitute for Brooks or any of the other midfielders. That's my view, you might disagree, and ideally Whiteman was going to be left at Donny but as Wilder said if we don't get anyone in, then we need Whiteman here, and yes Wilder also said he might prove to be good enough, but it's a lot to ask from half a season 's experience at Donny and a few games for Mansfield.

Finally Bush, I do like McCabe, contrary to what you might think, he's made some mistakes and some decisions which I disagree with but what Chairman hasn't but now is the time to reward Wilder with a budget that can give us the best chance of promotion. I don't conclude he is from all that's coming out at the minute. It's only due to Wilder and Knill that we're where we are now, other than McCabe appointing him.

 

[LJBlade]

A manager at a club our size who has more than proven himself would expect reasonable support in the transfer window.
Given the rise in income this season (running into eight figures) and the potential prize (and money on offer) it's common sense.

Do you know what Wilder would define as reasonable support? Do you know that he hasn’t already had this?

 

[Tunstall Fred]

A manager at a club our size who has more than proven himself would expect reasonable support in the transfer window.
Given the rise in income this season (running into eight figures) and the potential prize (and money on offer) it's common sense.

But you claimed not long ago that he was not up to the challenge,now you are claiming he has proven himself,which one is it?