Where will our dross end up?

[alcoblade]

I'm quite happy to stick to the facts as we know them:-

25th May 15 - Nigel Clough is sacked
2nd June 15 - Nigel Adkins is appointed
30th June 15 - Players contracted to Sheffield United return to pre-season training
18th July 15 to 23rd July - Sheffield United play three pre-season friendlies
25th July 15 - Sheffield United confirm they have signed Connor Sammon on a one year loan (along with Billy Sharp).

Adkins only reported comment on the signing of Connor Sammon is:- "Delighted to get both players over the line and I'm looking forward to working with them," said boss Adkins. "Billy is someone I know well and Conor is a player we have admired from afar and have monitored his progress since he was at Kilmarnock."

Adkins selects Sammon in his starting eleven throughout most of the early months of the season. Ahead of Adams, McNulty or other options.
He doesn't try and sign an alternative striker to replace Sammon, even in January and we're not even linked with a replacement striker.

At no point does Adkin mention that he didn't want to sign Sammon and he was already signed before he came.
Not even a hint and not even when things had turned sour. Contrast that with Wilder and Hammond etc.

Those are the facts. So, if Clough signed Sammon before he left at the end of May? Why did Sammon not join us until the end of July?
Why did he therefore miss most of vital pre-season training and pre-season friendlies?
Why did Adkins regularly select him if he didn't rate him? Why did he not try to sign a replacement at any point?
I would be genuinely interested to know what your sources explanation are for all this.

I think the probable truth is that Clough/Brannigan had started working on transfers for the new season (e.g. McFadzean, Sammon).
Adkins reviewed their list and being an "admirer" of Sammon he readily agreed that we should continue to try and sign him.
Others like McFadzean he didn't pursue, preferring to bring in his own choices (I.e. Woolford, Burn, Hammond, Sharp)

So you don't know that Adkins could have vetoed it, as you suggested previously. That's fine.

UTB

 

[BushBlade]

He’s only inflicted Woolford and Hammond on us. We’ve got rid of one already and the other will be gone before long.


Clough inflicted Higdon, Alcock, Coutts, McEveley, J. Wallace and many more.


Robson left us with Carney and Hendrie to dispose of.


Blackwell left us with Andy Taylor, Bogdanovic, Ertl, Nosworthy, Simmonsen etc.


Adams gave us Collins and Doyle.


Wilson left us with Porter, Hill, Flynn, Higginbotham, Williams, Westlake etc.


Weir gave us the gifts of King, Cuvelier, Baxter, McGinty, McGinn and Johns.



Adkins’ offence is a misdemeanour by comparison.

Perhaps that indicates all managers make mistakes and if your business plan is based on managers not making mistakes, it's fundamentally flawed.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

So you don't know that Adkins could have vetoed it, as you suggested previously. That's fine.
UTB

What I actually said was "Adkins could have vetoed the transfer or at very least state that a deal had already been done (as with Wilder and Hammond)"

If Sammon was signed by Clough, why didn’t he join until 25 days after pre-season training started?
Basic logic suggests that he wasn’t contracted to the club at that point and therefore Adkins could have vetoed the deal if he’d wanted to.
If he was lumbered with Sammon by Clough why didn’t he mention it at any point?
Surely one of your “numerous sources” can provide a logical explanation to this if it’s true?

What you actually said was:-“ Conclusively signed by Mr Clough himself, and lumbered on Adkins. It's been confirmed by numerous sources”

But it hasn’t been conclusively confirmed by any sources. Just unsubstantiated rumours you’ve either heard or read on this forum.
I've read the rumours too but the rumour doesn't fit the facts.

 

[alcoblade]

What I actually said was "Adkins could have vetoed the transfer or at very least state that a deal had already been done (as with Wilder and Hammond)"

If Sammon was signed by Clough, why didn’t he join until 25 days after pre-season training started?
Basic logic suggests that he wasn’t contracted to the club at that point and therefore Adkins could have vetoed the deal if he’d wanted to.
If he was lumbered with Sammon by Clough why didn’t he mention it at any point?
Surely one of your “numerous sources” can provide a logical explanation to this if it’s true?

What you actually said was:-“ Conclusively signed by Mr Clough himself, and lumbered on Adkins. It's been confirmed by numerous sources”

But it hasn’t been conclusively confirmed by any sources. Just unsubstantiated rumours you’ve either heard or read on this forum.
I've read the rumours too but the rumour doesn't fit the facts.

I've stated my "numerous sources" - they're on here, plus some almost "insider stuff" that I trusted. It won't be enough for those who want to believe otherwise - there's evidence each way to back up my / your case - so we may as well lead it to our own conclusions.

Back to the point I initially addressed, given the million man march that formed by the shite players that Clough signed for us, it's a tad harsh to focus the blame on Adkins for his two or arguably three shit deals, whatever the minutiae.

Done to death now, anyhow.....

UTB

 

[Bladesman]

What I actually said was "Adkins could have vetoed the transfer or at very least state that a deal had already been done (as with Wilder and Hammond)"

If Sammon was signed by Clough, why didn’t he join until 25 days after pre-season training started?
Basic logic suggests that he wasn’t contracted to the club at that point and therefore Adkins could have vetoed the deal if he’d wanted to.
If he was lumbered with Sammon by Clough why didn’t he mention it at any point?
Surely one of your “numerous sources” can provide a logical explanation to this if it’s true?

What you actually said was:-“ Conclusively signed by Mr Clough himself, and lumbered on Adkins. It's been confirmed by numerous sources”

But it hasn’t been conclusively confirmed by any sources. Just unsubstantiated rumours you’ve either heard or read on this forum.
I've read the rumours too but the rumour doesn't fit the facts.

Well not sure its great PR for the club if the new manager starts to slag off a new signing the club has made. I reckon the deal was pretty much done by the time Adkins was here and it looked good for the club to announce a double striker swoop. Which to be fair it did look good for the club at the time to be seen to signing 2 championship strikers.

It did seem like once Adkins saw what Sammon was really like then he started playing him a lot less, pitty he didn't do the same with Hammond though.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Well not sure its great PR for the club if the new manager starts to slag off a new signing the club has made. I reckon the deal was pretty much done by the time Adkins was here and it looked good for the club to announce a double striker swoop. Which to be fair it did look good for the club at the time to be seen to signing 2 championship strikers.

It did seem like once Adkins saw what Sammon was really like then he started playing him a lot less, pitty he didn't do the same with Hammond though.

So United made Sammon miss nearly four weeks of pre-season training and friendlies just so they could announce a “Double striker swoop”?
And Adkins went along with it without pointing out that the player’s match fitness and team cohesion was much more important than a PR exercise?

That’s one of the wackiest theories I’ve heard in a long time and makes both the club and Adkins look far worse than the simpler explanation that the deal simply wasn’t done until 25th July.

 

[Deaneandagana]

The time line indicated by Sothall Blade appears to give credence to support the signing of Sammon being made by Adkins & not the previous incumbent - also consider the position of the club at that time (very similar to this season) new manager appointed after a disappointing finish to the previous season, the early announcement of the signing of Sammon a then Championship striker would have boosted the sale of ST's.

There would be No reason to withhold news of the signing until mid July.

 

[BushBlade]

Did they invent Pokemon so that there was actually something even less important than who signed Sammon?

 

[The Crab]

Did they invent Pokemon so that there was actually something even less important than who signed Sammon?

Maybe there is a prize if you capture Sammon scoring a goal?

 

[Bladesman]

So United made Sammon miss nearly four weeks of pre-season training and friendlies just so they could announce a “Double striker swoop”?
And Adkins went along with it without pointing out that the player’s match fitness and team cohesion was much more important than a PR exercise?

That’s one of the wackiest theories I’ve heard in a long time and makes both the club and Adkins look far worse than the simpler explanation that the deal simply wasn’t done until 25th July.

Well he would have still been at Derby and training with them so I doubt fitness was going to be an issue. Its not like he was a free transfer.

It would be a standard PR exercise for us considering we have already done it this summer and announced two signings on the same day. Look up "Blades make double signing" on Google you will find we do it a few times over the last couple of years. Good chance all of those players actually signed on the dotted line on a few days earlier maybe even weeks earlier but the club delayed the announcement.

So it's entirely plausible the club delayed the announcement of Sammon signing.

 

[BushBlade]

Maybe there is a prize if you capture Sammon scoring a goal?

Like one of those fishing competitions?

 

[BushBlade]

Well he would have still been at Derby and training with them so I doubt fitness was going to be an issue. Its not like he was a free transfer.

It would be a standard PR exercise for us considering we have already done it this summer and announced two signings on the same day. Look up "Blades make double signing" on Google you will find we do it a few times over the last couple of years. Good chance all of those players actually signed on the dotted line on a few days earlier maybe even weeks earlier but the club delayed the announcement.

So it's entirely plausible the club delayed the announcement of Sammon signing.

Maybe he was on holiday?

 

[The Crab]

Like one of those fishing competitions?

A lot like that yes. Could be an idea for ITVBe, although their schedule is packed to the gunnels with quality viewing at the moment (sarcasm may be implied at this point). So, instead of catching Pokemon, you catch footballers doing unlikely things like Sammon Scoring, Hammond making a pass more than five yards, with points awarded accordingly.

 

[BushBlade]

A lot like that yes. Could be an idea for ITVBe, although their schedule is packed to the gunnels with quality viewing at the moment (sarcasm may be implied at this point). So, instead of catching Pokemon, you catch footballers doing unlikely things like Sammon Scoring, Hammond making a pass more than five yards, with points awarded accordingly.

Like it. So, like Scougall winning a header, Coutts running for more than five seconds, Adkins picking the same team three games in a row or a pig fan that doesn't think they're massive? That kind of thing?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Well he would have still been at Derby and training with them so I doubt fitness was going to be an issue. Its not like he was a free transfer.

It would be a standard PR exercise for us considering we have already done it this summer and announced two signings on the same day. Look up "Blades make double signing" on Google you will find we do it a few times over the last couple of years. Good chance all of those players actually signed on the dotted line on a few days earlier maybe even weeks earlier but the club delayed the announcement.

So it's entirely plausible the club delayed the announcement of Sammon signing.

Do you actually believe this to be true?
You don't think any manager worth his salt would want all contracted players to train with the club as soon as possible?
That they would want them to be forming bonds with their new teammates in the Summer training camp in Malta/Cornwall/Midlands?
Applying their own methodology and fitness regime and tactics?
That a manager and club would willingly sacrifice all the benefits of that just so they can make a big "Double signing" press announcement?

I accept that signings may have been delayed a couple of days at the most.
But we're expected to believe that the signing of Sammon was delayed 25 days.
All in the expectation but not certainty that we would also sign Sharp and they could hold hands at the press conference.

 

[SwissBlade]

Sothall_Blade i think it's pretty widely accepted that the deal for Sammon was all but completed prior to Adkins coming in/ was signed by the football committee.

I questioned alcoblade last season on this as I also thought that Adkins signed him, however I seem to recall from one of McCabes forums that the Sammon deal wasn't Adkins' fault.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Sothall_Blade i think it's pretty widely accepted that the deal for Sammon was all but completed prior to Adkins coming in/ was signed by the football committee.

I questioned alcoblade last season on this as I also thought that Adkins signed him, however I seem to recall from one of McCabes forums that the Sammon deal wasn't Adkins' fault.

Fine. Can you explain why he didn't sign until 25th July then please?

 

[Bladesman]

Maybe he was on holiday?

Based on performances I think he was holiday for most of last season.

 

[The Crab]

Like it. So, like Scougall winning a header, Coutts running for more than five seconds, Adkins picking the same team three games in a row or a pig fan that doesn't think they're massive? That kind of thing?

Hint of genius about the concept isn't there

 

[SwissBlade]

Fine. Can you explain why he didn't sign until 25th July then please?

No, perhaps it was something contractual or he was on holiday or he needed to get fitter. Perhaps our finance manager was on holiday or his pen ran out of ink...

If I could be arsed I'd try to find the post or the statement made by McCabe/ Phipps/ whoever that let Adkins off the hook

 

[Barry Blunt]

Completely agree with this.

Cuvelier was signed by Weir, but then got his ACL injury and with Weir gone he was already up against it. I seem to remember Clough liked him and said he was a tidy footballer, plus Adkins also said similar. The problem was that he never managed to stay injury free.

Looked decent in some of the cameos he played under Clough, but can't really comment about Adkins as he played too many players out of position and with strange tactics.

As for the professionalism and excellent sports science that you mention, Clough never did any strength and conditioning work (widely recognised to help prevent injuries), focussing on fitness through football training. Nutrition was left to the players, some of them then had to go elsewhere for nutrition and S&C work. Adkins claimed at the start that he wanted to make us the fittest side in the division, but we often looked the least fit and we still got the injuries. Both Clough and Adkins used the Catapult GPS and HR training gear, but i'm not sure if this was used as well as it could be. Adkins did talk about training zones after Man U in the cup, especially for recovery though. Wilder is also using the same kit.

Something that SUFC could benefit from is taking the S&C, Rehabilitation and nutrition away from the manager and give the responsibility to a fulltime, dedicated team of professionals. Let the manager focus on the football side.

Not only is Whitney big on strength and conditioning, but they even go so far as to train and teach the players how to position their bodies in certain scenarios, such as when they're about to be tackled, to reduce the chance of injury.

It means we hardly get any muscle injuries, which are the ones that can be avoided.

 

[Barry Blunt]

What a load of nonsense. Cuvellier was here for 3 seasons and never was able to stay fit. When he did play he was useless. He was here under 4 managers and none of them saw him as a first team regular. He was on very good wages and did nothing at all for SUFC. To blame the club, managers, sports science would be wrong (United's facilties are second to none at this level). The fact he piled on the pounds and looked absolutely useless when he played was mostly down to one person. Him. No tactics, fitness or sports nutrition is to blame for the fact he could barely control a football when he did play..

I will be amazed if he plays 30 games. He has played 22 games in over 3 seasons!!!

We'll see. But don't get moaning if he plays that many games and is one of the divisions better players.

 

[Finn Keane o' Balmaqueen]

Sub's Bench?

 

[BushBlade]

Sub's Bench?

Midfield?

 

[Houston_Blade]

Not only is Whitney big on strength and conditioning, but they even go so far as to train and teach the players how to position their bodies in certain scenarios, such as when they're about to be tackled, to reduce the chance of injury.

It means we hardly get any muscle injuries, which are the ones that can be avoided.

Is that not called diving or "simulation"?!

 

[Deadbat]

We'll see. But don't get moaning if he plays that many games and is one of the divisions better players.

I wont get moaning. He may go and do well. He may surprise me but I saw nothing in 3 years to suggest he will ever be a decent, regular player even at this level. It seems the little purple patch he had at Walsall on loan maybe the exception in what has been a disappointing career that showed promise but little in reality. Whatever happens he did nothing to deserve a new deal and was lucky to get a very good wage for 3 years - sure he had a lot of injuries but when he did play he could not convince 3 (albeit poor) managers. I think blaming SUFC on this one is harsh. He had plenty of time to get into game shape and we had a really poor midfield. He could not get into it. Quite astonishing really. If he had a semblance of ability he would have done.

 

[Jehovah]

I literally could not believe how bad Cuvelier was when I saw him play. Unable to pass a ball 4 yards without giving it away. Horrendous. Why did we have a squad full of such utter shiteaters

 

[SwissBlade]

I wont get moaning. He may go and do well. He may surprise me but I saw nothing in 3 years to suggest he will ever be a decent, regular player even at this level. It seems the little purple patch he had at Walsall on loan maybe the exception in what has been a disappointing career that showed promise but little in reality. Whatever happens he did nothing to deserve a new deal and was lucky to get a very good wage for 3 years - sure he had a lot of injuries but when he did play he could not convince 3 (albeit poor) managers. I think blaming SUFC on this one is harsh. He had plenty of time to get into game shape and we had a really poor midfield. He could not get into it. Quite astonishing really. If he had a semblance of ability he would have done.

A very blinkered view, fine if you just didn't like him but his injury record at United was horrific.
As for not convincing 3 managers, here is the rundown:
Weir - Got his cruciate injury during his tenure and weir was sacked very quickly. Weir was convinced enough to buy him.
Clough - recovered from his ACL during Clough's tenure. Played in some of the bigger cup games for Clough, but again picked up injuries. Looked decent in the games he played.
Adkins - Adkins went so far as to praise him and say he was over his run of injuries, brought him in steadily, but again was hampered by further injuries. Certainly didn't see the best of him in a very shit side

I completely agree with United for releasing him based on his injury record, but ability wise he's a decent player

 

[Barry Blunt]

It comes back to the team thing, rather than individuals again. What position did he play for you? He was in a roaming midfield position when he played well on loan for us.

When tried on the right, or in the centre of a midfield four, he never looked as effective. Very limiting, but if you play around that, you get the best out of him. That's where he's most likely to play this season again.

It's also about feeling loved by fans and the manager. A bit of confidence, and not just being a number should make the world of difference.

 

[Barry Blunt]

Is that not called diving or "simulation"?!

No, it's nothing to do with diving, I think you misunderstand. It's about staying on your feet, and changing your body position so the weight of the impact or movement isn't taken by the joints/muscles most likely to get injured.