Where do the FA get these refs from?

[Deadly_D'Jaffo]

Who was involved in the fracas in the tunnel/technical area? Morgs vs. Weir?

 

[Houso]

Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't Freeman's trailing leg take out the Brentford player even though he definitely gets the ball?

 

[ZoneManWilf]

What I don't get is why was it a drop ball and not a corner after it was all sorted out?

 

[grafikhaus]

First off, everybody is referring to 'the linesman'. The correct term is 'referee's assistant' and the clue is in the name. Yesterday he lived up to his title, but usually they are just there to confirm what the referee gives.

Second, one or two are congratulating Brentford on 'accepting the decision'. Funny, that. I could have sworn I saw several of their players right in the refs. face. And their manager - and Weir - were going absolutely apeshit.

At half time I talked to one of the referee's assessors and he said he'd never seen an incident like it. I said that, although it's easy sitting in the stand without having several players 'in yer face', I thought the ref. should have indicated his final - revised - decision far earlier without enduring 3 or 4 minutes of chaos. He said 'I quite agree.'

Full marks to the assistant and, at first, I thought the ref. had been extremely honest and brave. However a couple of decisions he made later - not least our throw-in near the end in front of the South Stand which plainly came off the Brentford player, and where the ref. was supported by the same assistant - showed what he really was. Fucking incompetent.

 

[Darren]

Just to play devil's advocate, doesn't Freeman's trailing leg take out the Brentford player even though he definitely gets the ball?

Interesting point. This is the law on fouls:

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footb...eing/laws-of-the-game/law/newsid=1290868.html

Freeman clearly trips the Brentford player, but it would only be a pen, if the trip was "careless, reckless or excessive" in making the challenge that led to the trip. Given that he was obviously aiming to get the ball, it was a legitimate challenge to make and, in fact, got the ball, it's clear that he wasn't careless, reckless or excessive.

 

[sitwell]

'And their manager - and Weir - were going absolutely apeshit.' ?? Did Weirs eyebrow move or something ?
Was he disappointed ? That's about the only point hes got at Bramall Lane this season isn't it ?

 

[Punk Blade]

That thought had crossed my mind. If he had slammed it in the net the referee would have had to give the goal. Worst the scorer could have expected was a yellow for unsporting conduct.

How do we know he wasn't trying to score?

I suspect if he had scored we would have been awarded a free kick and the guy booked. Maybe the ref wanted them to prove they were okay with the decision by giving us the ball back rather than just giving it to Howard.

 

[Darren]

I suspect that the reason the game seems to have so many "dodgy" refs is that it is for the most part a thankless, lonely job. Most refs start off reffing junior games and even here they are often abused by players, managers and parents alike. If they stick with it they will "progress" to local league football where quite frankly the abuse and intimidation that they face is appalling. Many potentially good refs rapidly pack it in, they just dont need the hassle. In many cases the leagues don't support them and the relatively few that stick it tend to have extremely thick skins or personality issues They realise that the only way they can survive is by making quick decisions right or wrong and sticking to them come what may. Many times when reffing I simply didnt know what had happened, you see it once in a slit second, you make a decision anyway, what the hell else can you do? Working up the leagues is often a case of last man standing rather than based on innate ability or consistent performance. Those fans who's default response to refs is foul abuse and incandescent rage may be ought to try and ref a few matches, I packed up years ago and I don't miss it.

Good post.

It is strange, when you think about it rationally, the abuse refs get. The game couldn't operate without them and 99% of the time, even when they get it wrong, the refs will have made a honest decision as they see it. Players make mistakes and refs make mistakes, those mistakes are all part and parcel of the game.

As you say, refs should get the full support of authorities. If they make the odd honest mistake that should just be accepted as the nature of the beast. Only if refs are consistently getting things wrong and/or shown to be corrupt should action be taken.

 

[Darren]

If the incident had been reversed and we had been awarded the penalty, their player had been dismissed etc I think 99% of us would be arguing his decisions should have stood! wouldn't we?

I still think the incident, whichever way round will cause ripples through the game with players, managers and fans believing a strong protest can get a referee to change his mind or linesmen to get involved in changing the decision.

Here's a prime example of a referee and linesman sticking by his decision.


Right or wrong?

I know I will get hung, drawn and quartered as a traitor here, but it looks pretty clear the ball didn't cross the line...

 

[grafikhaus]

could this be an argument for technology in the game again?

For me, absolutely no. The 'goal line technology' was the thin end of the wedge. Just how many decisions would need to be reviewed? Offside/not offside causes most problems and will be next to be subject to video review, but a return to the old '2 opponents between the attacker and the goal line' is vastly superior to the present mess. And once all decisions are subject to video, how long before Wenger, Mourinho etc. bring up decisions that didn't go in their favour days later?

As we saw last night, errors are made. It's all part of the game.

 

[Blade56]

I know I will get hung, drawn and quartered as a traitor here, but it looks pretty clear the ball didn't cross the line...

Traitor
You should have gone to spec savers
The ball did cross the line and do you know how I know?





The referre and linesman said it did. End of

 

[Highbury_Blade]

I know I will get hung, drawn and quartered as a traitor here, but it looks pretty clear the ball didn't cross the line...

This is a better angle

 

[Guesty]

What I don't get is why was it a drop ball and not a corner after it was all sorted out?

Because the ball rolled into Howard's hands following the tackle.

Yeah a few Brentford players didn't accept the decision at all. Former Leeds prick, cuntbubble and all-round shitwasp Jonathan Douglas petulantly blasted the drop ball out of play (apparently attempting to smack it against Howard). He also tore into his own 'Keeper second half for a good save from Porter's header.

 

[Punk Blade]

Good post.

It is strange, when you think about it rationally, the abuse refs get. The game couldn't operate without them and 99% of the time, even when they get it wrong, the refs will have made a honest decision as they see it. Players make mistakes and refs make mistakes, those mistakes are all part and parcel of the game.

As you say, refs should get the full support of authorities. If they make the odd honest mistake that should just be accepted as the nature of the beast. Only if refs are consistently getting things wrong and/or shown to be corrupt should action be taken.

I never understand this argument in defence of referees. When players and managers make mistakes they lose out on league points or their place in a cup, they may miss out on promotion or get relegated, players will lose their place in the team and eventually the squad and ultimately they would all be out of a job.

There are no comebacks when a ref makes a game-changing error. Instead of a referee losing out (apart from rare cases where they are demoted by leagues), it is again the players and managers who suffer and could ultimately be out of a job. We've only recently seen a real howler by a Premier League ref be rewarded with a Wembley cup semi final.

I don't expect they will get every decision right, and unfortunately there is nothing that can be done if an unjust and incorrect scoreline has been posted. All I ask is some humility from the officials, let the referees explain their decisions and own up to mistakes rather than have the authorities back them over everything. I have more respect for the ref last night for admitting and rectifying an error than I've had for any other ref in a long time.

 

[LSF]

Only time in 50odd years of watching football I've seen the ref & lino's applauded off at half time

 

[Guesty]

Only time in 50odd years of watching football I've seen the ref & lino's applauded off at half time

I loved the huge round of applause the Assistant got when checking the nets before the second half.

 

[ZoneManWilf]

Because the ball rolled into Howard's hands following the tackle.

Yeah a few Brentford players didn't accept the decision at all. Former Leeds prick, cuntbubble and all-round shitwasp Jonathan Douglas petulantly blasted the drop ball out of play (apparently attempting to smack it against Howard). He also tore into his own 'Keeper second half for a good save from Porter's header.

Oops, I'll admit I was so caught up in the protests, that I didn't notice, I'd assumed the sliding tackle had pushed it out of play. Cheers.

 

[Darren]

I never understand this argument in defence of referees. When players and managers make mistakes they lose out on league points or their place in a cup, they may miss out on promotion or get relegated, players will lose their place in the team and eventually the squad and ultimately they would all be out of a job.

There are no comebacks when a ref makes a game-changing error. Instead of a referee losing out (apart from rare cases where they are demoted by leagues), it is again the players and managers who suffer and could ultimately be out of a job. We've only recently seen a real howler by a Premier League ref be rewarded with a Wembley cup semi final.

I don't expect they will get every decision right, and unfortunately there is nothing that can be done if an unjust and incorrect scoreline has been posted. All I ask is some humility from the officials, let the referees explain their decisions and own up to mistakes rather than have the authorities back them over everything. I have more respect for the ref last night for admitting and rectifying an error than I've had for any other ref in a long time.

Unless you are expecting 100% perfection from refs, then you have to accept their mistakes as part and parcel of the game, with all the consequences that flow from that. All you can ask from refs is that they are generally competent and honest. Hanging them out to dry when they make a honest mistake is, as the poster above says, a sure way to ensure that only those with personality disorders and/or meglomaniacs would ever want to be a ref.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I have more respect for the ref last night for admitting and rectifying an error than I've had for any other ref in a long time.

That seems to be the general feeling on here however.............




if it had been OUR penalty he chalked off?

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

I think had he not consulted his linesman (regardless of the linesman's opinion), the situation would have escalated into something worse.

I thought the fact he allowed the players to crowd him was in itself an admission that he wasn't sure of his decision.

If he wasn't sure of his decision, it should have never have been reached that it was a penalty and such a swift red card.

Two threads on the matter, time to merge?

 

[Darren]

Because the ball rolled into Howard's hands following the tackle.

Yeah a few Brentford players didn't accept the decision at all. Former Leeds prick, cuntbubble and all-round shitwasp Jonathan Douglas petulantly blasted the drop ball out of play (apparently attempting to smack it against Howard). He also tore into his own 'Keeper second half for a good save from Porter's header.

Brentford could have argued that that was a back pass and they should have had an indirect free kick anyway

 

[Coily]

I was interested in Warburton's comments, in that it was the usual one-eyed cliched horseshit which would seem to indicate that being a professional means winning by fair means or foul. And it fucking stinks.

"Two wrongs don't make a right"
"The fact of the matter is the referee gave a penalty and issued a red card"

In this case, there was only one "wrong", being the decision in the first place. By reversing a clearly incorrect decision it was merely putting it right. As for his "fact", it seems wrong to conveniently forget that the fact that Freeman won the ball. Would all the facts not need to be considered?

I'd like to think that Clough would have had the decency to back the referee even had the decision been the other way.

 

[Punk Blade]

Unless you are expecting 100% perfection from refs, then you have to accept their mistakes as part and parcel of the game, with all the consequences that flow from that. All you can ask from refs is that they are generally competent and honest. Hanging them out to dry when they make a honest mistake is, as the poster above says, a sure way to ensure that only those with personality disorders and/or meglomaniacs would ever want to be a ref.

I agree their mistakes are part of the game, as I said I don't expect 100% perfection.

It's the competence and honesty that I rarely see. I wouldn't say allowing them to confess an error and explain their decision is hanging them out to dry. I think it would make them more human and most fans would be less angry than they are in the face of the arrogance officials and their superiors currently display.

I thought it was the abuse that was supposedly making only those with 'personality disorders' survive to the top? More honesty = less abuse.

 

[Punk Blade]

That seems to be the general feeling on here however.............




if it had been OUR penalty he chalked off?

Depends on my view of the incident. If I'd seen it clearly like I did last night I'd have been disappointed but would have been surprised at the original decision anyway and had no complaints. If it'd been at the opposite end and I'd not seen foot on ball I'd have been fuming til I saw the video!

 

[LSF]

I was interested in Warburton's comments, in that it was the usual one-eyed cliched horseshit which would seem to indicate that being a professional means winning by fair means or foul. And it fucking stinks.

"Two wrongs don't make a right"
"The fact of the matter is the referee gave a penalty and issued a red card"

In this case, there was only one "wrong", being the decision in the first place. By reversing a clearly incorrect decision it was merely putting it right. As for his "fact", it seems wrong to conveniently forget that the fact that Freeman won the ball. Would all the facts not need to be considered?

I'd like to think that Clough would have had the decency to back the referee even had the decision been the other way.

I think the overriding thing is, had it been Brentford the beneficiaries of the scenario, Warburton would have been extolling the ref's virtues. Had United been the losers in this, Clough would have been saying the same as Warburton has been spouting. Human nature!

 

[Darren]

I agree their mistakes are part of the game, as I said I don't expect 100% perfection.

It's the competence and honesty that I rarely see. I wouldn't say allowing them to confess an error and explain their decision is hanging them out to dry. I think it would make them more human and most fans would be less angry than they are in the face of the arrogance officials and their superiors currently display.

I thought it was the abuse that was supposedly making only those with 'personality disorders' survive to the top? More honesty = less abuse.

Depends what you mean by "honesty". As our ex-ref posted, refs see an incident in a split second and have to make a honest decision on limited evidence. If they are unsure, they should consult the assistants before making a decision. If that is all you mean, I agree.

If, by "honesty", you mean holding a press conference to confess their error after numerous replays from numerous angles have shown the he was wrong. I disagree. I think there should be a blanket policy that refs never comment on their decisions after a game. Do we really want them involved in wars of words with fans/players/managers etc?

 

[Punk Blade]

To be perfectly honest I'd be far more interested to hear what the ref has to say about the key decisions than Wenger's "I didn't see it", or Mourinho saying something controversial just to get a rise out of someone. Perhaps if we get 10 seconds of the refs on MotD and have a ref join two players on a 3-man panel for live matches we'll get to know them and treat them as humans. Maybe then we can be more forgiving of their mistakes because we know who they are and how they see things.

 

[SwissBlade]

Just watched the incident. I was expecting it to be a contentious issue with several replays proving inconclusive and only a pair of red and white specs could decide it....

But it's the most clear cut decision I've seen for a long while. Definitely not a penalty. Freeman won the ball fairly and did well to get back to make the tackle.

Well done to the ref for finally taking the right decision and having the balls to do so. Quite a humble referee than the usual arrogant sods we get. He probably could've handled the Brentford players better by booking them.

I don't like to see players surrounding the ref, so I hope Clough speaks to them about that. It makes me cringe to see.

 

[Punk Blade]

Brentford could have argued that that was a back pass and they should have had an indirect free kick anyway

When we saw the ref go for his whistle that's what we thought he was giving!

 

[Jon Bon]

An astronaut mate of mine who is currently orbiting the Earth in the International Space Station texted me to say that even from 230 miles above China it looked a clean and legit tackle.

Fair play to the ref though for taking his lino's opinion and then showing the balls to admit the mistake.