When did we last have a better team ?

[PeterNdlovu081]

That these simple and obvious observations attract such fervent opposition says everything about the Bassett, Warnock generations. Sadly, they know no better and refuse to learn.

What opposition? Who are the hoofers? Can you name any of these people?

THEY DONT EXIST

It's like you're constantly having an argument with yourself in your own head. Trying to convince a group of people you've invented that they're wrong.

It's just bizarre.

 

[Pinchy]

Unappreciated in your own time Pinchy

The tide has well and truly turned towards better football. I'd say it's got as far as the top end of League 1, with a few Warnock/Pulis exceptions.

I was talking to an Oldham fan today. He said L2 is an abomination. Big blokes fighting, everyone going direct. So there's a fair way to go before percentage football becomes completely extinct.

The one thing Wednesday fans were right about in the La Liga bullshit was the style of football. In the 6 years we were gone the top 2 divisions have adopted slicker, more attractive football. It's most definitely a massive improvement

...and Tuftyball has enhanced that improvement, I’m delighted to say.

 

[Pinchy]

What opposition? Who are the hoofers? Can you name any of these people?

THEY DONT EXIST

It's like you're constantly having an argument with yourself in your own head. Trying to convince a group of people you've invented that they're wrong.

It's just bizarre.

#59 shows what a long way you have to travel before you’ve even got a clue, then you’ve compounded it with further drivel.

I’ve been trying to educate you for years now, young tyro, but you resist all my well-meaning and freely-given (in my own time and unpaid) efforts.

I’m afraid you will have to be excluded from mainstream football education and removed to a Hoofit Referral Unit, supervised by the head, Mr. Blackwell.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

#59 shows what a long way you have to travel before you’ve even got a clue, then you’ve compounded it with further drivel.

I’ve been trying to educate you for years now, young tyro, but you resist all my well-meaning and freely-given (in my own time and unpaid) efforts.

I’m afraid you will have to be excluded from mainstream football education and removed to a Hoofit Referral Unit, supervised by the head, Mr. Blackwell.

What the fuck are you talking about?

You're mentally ill.

 

[Hartley Hare]

The FA Cup winning team from 1925

GK Charles Sutcliffe
DF Billy Cook
DF Ernest Milton
MF Harry Pantling
MF Seth King
MF George Green
FW David Mercer
FW Tommy Boyle
FW Harry Johnson
FR Billy Gillespie (c)
FL Fred Tuns

The last major trophy won by our club.

HH

 

[Sothall_Blade]

That’s fine but falls into the usual trap of distinguishing between good football and winning football. The truth is they are one and the same. The best footballers play for the best teams. They win the matches, leagues and trophies. They play the most attractive football and they succeed. Hoofers play grotesque football and fail. The days of the ragamuffin upanatem underdogs went out with the demise of Wimbledon. No loss to football there. Mourned only in S2.

It really is time to accept that this debate was won and lost a very long time ago and continues nowhere else but here. It’s embarrasing.

Cavemen, please shut your eyes...

Football won. Reep, POMO Hughes, Bassett, Beck and SemiPro were soundly beaten.

“Proper football. The Right Way”

Chris Wilder.
Manager, Sheffield United F.C.

And yet Cardiff got promoted last season
How does that fit into your binary view of successful football tactics?

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

Yes, but at the risk of labouring the point, one style of football is by far the most likely to obtain the said result.

There was a thankfully brief period when parks football invaded the professional game and until proper footballers realised they could actually cope with it quite comfortably, it had some fleeting success. The novelty was curiously appealing for a while until the whole of the nation outside S2 realised it was grotesque, repetitive, unskilled, unaesthetic garbage.

The Right Way (a favourite phrase of our Manager, I say yet again for those with their ears covered) prevailed and the Hoofers became unemployable, thank Pele.

History confirms unequivocally the triumph of stylish, effective pass and move over aimless punt, kick and rush, kids in the playground shite.

That these simple and obvious observations attract such fervent opposition says everything about the Bassett, Warnock generations. Sadly, they know no better and refuse to learn.

It’s a Herculean task but I’m no quitter. I’ll keep trying, for football’s sake.

Hmm, I was there at the turnstiles, with the wind at my heels
I once rated Darren Carr and I know how it feels to kick too high
Too far
Too soon
You saw the whole of the moon
Your passes were grounded
While mine filled the skies
I was dumbfounded by hoof
You cut through lies
I saw Charlton's rain dirty Valley
You saw Brigadoon
I saw Bootham Crescent
You saw the whole of the moon

 

[TTMeysh]

I was also going to say Spackman's team, expensively assembled and then disastrously disassembled. A bit more direct than this lot but understandable given a front two of Fjortoft and Deane. As a point of order, whoever many of them were signed by Kendall it was Spackman and his coaching staff that got them playing 3-5-2. Neither Quinn or Borbokis was remotely as effective when we reverted to 4-4-2.

 

[super_pig]

Hmm, I was there at the turnstiles, with the wind at my heels
I once rated Darren Carr and I know how it feels to kick too high
Too far
Too soon
You saw the whole of the moon
Your passes were grounded
While mine filled the skies
I was dumbfounded by hoof
You cut through lies
I saw Charlton's rain dirty Valley
You saw Brigadoon
I saw Bootham Crescent
You saw the whole of the moon

bravo lad

 

[Pinchy]

And yet Cardiff got promoted last season
How does that fit into your binary view of successful football tactics?

Do you really want comparative lists of trophies won by teams playing proper football and those hoofing it? The latter would be about as long as ‘Social Justice’ by Evil Thatcher.

Why do you and others so fervently defend grotesque lumpituptfieldnchaseit? Do you actually like watching such ugly, horrible anti-football? If so, please just say so and we can halt this senseless debate, played out only in S2 and which would astonish the rest of the football world, or at least narrow the terms of reference.

 

[Pinchy]

bravo lad

Brilliant. I might have a bash at another verse if I get time.

 

[I should coco]

The latter would be about as long as ‘Social Justice’ by Evil Thatcher.

A bit longer than that....

FAC Wimbledon 1988
1st Division DirtyLeeds 1992
Euros Greece 2004

I'm not saying it is pretty, but ocassionally it can be effective.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

I wanted long throws
You kept the ball in your hands
I saw empty channels to hit
But you passed it straight to the man
I wandered around lower league grounds for years
While you just stayed in your room
I visited Bootham Crescent
You saw the whole of the moon
The whole of the moon......

 

[Sothall_Blade]

That’s fine but falls into the usual trap of distinguishing between good football and winning football. The truth is they are one and the same. The best footballers play for the best teams. They win the matches, leagues and trophies. They play the most attractive football and they succeed. Hoofers play grotesque football and fail. The days of the ragamuffin upanatem underdogs went out with the demise of Wimbledon. No loss to football there. Mourned only in S2.

It really is time to accept that this debate was won and lost a very long time ago and continues nowhere else but here. It’s embarrasing.

Cavemen, please shut your eyes...

Football won. Reep, POMO Hughes, Bassett, Beck and SemiPro were soundly beaten.

“Proper football. The Right Way”

Chris Wilder.
Manager, Sheffield United F.C.

And yet Cardiff got promoted last season
How does that fit into your binary view of successful football tactics?

Do you really want comparative lists of trophies won by teams playing proper football and those hoofing it? The latter would be about as long as ‘Social Justice’ by Evil Thatcher.

Why do you and others so fervently defend grotesque lumpituptfieldnchaseit? Do you actually like watching such ugly, horrible anti-football? If so, please just say so and we can halt this senseless debate, played out only in S2 and which would astonish the rest of the football world, or at least narrow the terms of reference.

I can't really be bothered to have the same full discussion with you that we've had a dozen times before.
Suffice it to say, there are more than two ways of playing football.
There isn't just "Hoofball" or "Tippy Tappy". There are a million different variations.

I love the way we are playing at the moment. Attacking, entertaining football. Creating chances, scoring goals, winning matches.
I loved Bassett's double-promotion winning team and Warnock's 02-03 team for similar reasons, although I agree they were less easy on the eye.

The OP asks when did we last have a "better" team. The only way to judge which is the "better" team is by their results.
We're not fans of gymnastics or figure skating where you get better scores for artistic impression.
Therefore, Warnock's promotion team was our best team at this level because they got the best results.

Warnock's Cardiff team were better than us last season because they got the best results.
Despite you saying that's impossible in today's football as he plays "Hoofball"
Maybe it's not impossible? Maybe he doesn't play "Hoofball"? Either way you were you wrong.

 

[Pinchy]

What the fuck are you talking about?

You're mentally ill.

I most certainly am.

“But I don’t want to go among mad people,’ Alice remarked.
‘Oh, you can’t help that,’ said the Cat. 'We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.’
'How do you know I’m mad?’ said Alice.
'You must be,” said the Cat. 'or you wouldn’t have come here.”

Lewis Carroll.

 

[Harry's Game]

The current Wilder side has faced tougher competition over the last two seasons than Bassett’s side did in 1990 or Warnocks side did in 2006.

If (IF) Wilder gets us promoted it would rank above both those other two promotions to the top flight in my lifetime imo.

That’s not to belittle either of the other two promotions both were great feats, the 1990 one in particular as just 18 months previously it was 50/50 that the club was going to go under.

 

[oldblade]

Warnock's premier league flirtation ?
Bassets team ?
Or does it go back even further ?

I would say that a team's league position is the only true measurement of how good or bad a team is. You can only really be measured in terms of how well or badly you do against the teams of your particular era. League position indicates how good a team is in comparison to all the other sides in that league.

On several occasions Warnock's sides finished higher in the championship than any Wilder side has done so far. One of his sides also played in the premier league. Again something that Wilder's sides have yet to achieve.

Under Bassett we also got promoted to the first division (now premier league) and survived there for four seasons and in one of those seasons we actually managed to finish 9th!

So in recent history both Bassett and Warnock have produced sides that were better than the current side.

However, I would qualify the above by saying that Wilder has only been our manager for 2 full seasons and maybe the time to make a proper judgement will be when his time here is finished.

 

[Cappy]

The five best players I've ever seen who I greatly admire and respect are Zinedine Zidane, Ronaldo, Thierry Henry, Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi

Henry is still the only player I've watched who, in EVERY game, the opposition looked visibly terrified of him the first time he touched the ball in the game. He was something else. Just in the wrong team to win the individual awards he deserved.

 

[tomtheblade]

I would say that a team's league position is the only true measurement of how good or bad a team is. You can only really be measured in terms of how well or badly you do against the teams of your particular era. League position indicates how good a team is in comparison to all the other sides in that league.

On several occasions Warnock's sides finished higher in the championship than any Wilder side has done so far. One of his sides also played in the premier league. Again something that Wilder's sides have yet to achieve.

Under Bassett we also got promoted to the first division (now premier league) and survived there for four seasons and in one of those seasons we actually managed to finish 9th!

So in recent history both Bassett and Warnock have produced sides that were better than the current side.

However, I would qualify the above by saying that Wilder has only been our manager for 2 full seasons and maybe the time to make a proper judgement will be when his time here is finished.

This method of measurement breaks down when you look at the history of football as a whole, though.

So much about the way the modern day game is played has improved massively. Fitness, diet, tactics, data, preparation & organisation, the list goes on.

If you base how good a team is solely on their league achievements in their own time it leads you to absurd conclusions, such as that a title winning team from 1920 are 'better' than the current Liverpool side (who haven't won the title), when in reality if they played each other the older team would get steamrollered.

You can redefine 'better' as relative to their time if you want, and I understand why you might do that, but I think the only reasonable way to judge is to consider all the factors involved.

 

[Sheffsteel]

If (IF) Wilder gets us promoted it would rank above both those other two promotions to the top flight in my lifetime imo.
.

Totally agree.....the standard rule that has applied for years and years is.....
The most talented players with big ability are the most wanted....so they can command high wages and cost a lot of money.

So the smaller clubs with little money....started buying athletes, quick players and players with big characters. Then they play the percentage game....pumping crosses into the box as much as possible...and they work harder than the talented players. Under Bassett and Warnock....it was often entertaining but it was often “hit and hope “ football playing the percentage game.

However Wilders style isn’t based on luck, where we pump the ball into the opposition box as much as possible. It’s almost like watching top class 5 a side players playing the 11 a side game.We don’t even rely on any individual flair, there’s only Duffy who can regularly beat a man, but this pass and move style is almost like watching the Harlem Globetrotters at times.
The only way to combat it is to park the bus and pack out your defense, which Is showing us the ultimate respect normally afforded to a Liverpool or a Man City.

Suppose the important difference with Wilder is he’s gaining us the “respect” in the football world.
If we reach the PL next season you can bet the likes of Mark Lawrenson will be saying “you know what you get with Sheffield United, they are such a big physical hard working well organised team playing their brand of football that makes it difficult for the opposition”.
We going to shock the establishment when we rock up and play neat build up play like Barcelona.

 

[Pinchy]

Totally agree.....the standard rule that has applied for years and years is.....
The most talented players with big ability are the most wanted....so they can command high wages and cost a lot of money.

So the smaller clubs with little money....started buying athletes, quick players and players with big characters. Then they play the percentage game....pumping crosses into the box as much as possible...and they work harder than the talented players. Under Bassett and Warnock....it was often entertaining but it was often “hit and hope “ football playing the percentage game.

However Wilders style isn’t based on luck, where we pump the ball into the opposition box as much as possible. It’s almost like watching top class 5 a side players playing the 11 a side game.We don’t even rely on any individual flair, there’s only Duffy who can regularly beat a man, but this pass and move style is almost like watching the Harlem Globetrotters at times.
The only way to combat it is to park the bus and pack out your defense, which Is showing us the ultimate respect normally afforded to a Liverpool or a Man City.

Suppose the important difference with Wilder is he’s gaining us the “respect” in the football world.
If we reach the PL next season you can bet the likes of Mark Lawrenson will be saying “you know what you get with Sheffield United, they are such a big physical hard working well organised team playing their brand of football that makes it difficult for the opposition”.
We going to shock the establishment when we rock up and play neat build up play like Barcelona.

At last, someone acknowledges the obvious. Well said. This team gets respect and admiration. Under Bassett and Warnock other teams would dismiss us as nothing more than a ‘style of play’ and it wasn’t a compliment. They were always able to say they were beaten by a system rather than talent.

Of course S2 parochials will glory in ‘nobody likes us, we don’t care’ but sensible Blades who enjoy the considerable advantage of coherent thinking, do care.

I trust the evidence of my eyes. We are playing infinitely better football than any United team since the Harris days. This lot beat even them in one important detail. They turn up and play with hugely impressive consistency. Better footballers win more games, win more points, win more trophies. Not only is that an unassailable proposition, it is to be hugely welcomed that we now have more than our share of better footballers as opposed to the upanatem, ragamuffin underdogs that a disturbing minority of our fans risibly continue to prefer.

Only in S2.

 

[blademark]

I agree largely with the main body of your eloquent response but completely disagree with your tiresome mantra of 'only in S2'.
Football fans are similar the world over, and if you compare similar clubs with similar histories of success and failure, the fans will be exactly the same, just a cross section of ordinary people, no different from a random sample from any office or factory. That's just how it is.

 

[Nicolaus_Copernicus]

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Warnock's premier league flirtation ?
Bassets team ?
Or does it go back even further ?

To be perfectly honest I don’t think we ever have, not in my lifetime. Even the 71 team weren’t as slick and precise as this current team of “journeymen.” As for the Bassett and Warnock era’s......Well with my SUFC blinkers removed they now look very “agricultural” indeed especially in comparison to Wilders stylists.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

I trust the evidence of my eyes. We are playing infinitely better football than any United team since the Harris days.

You've just massively contradicted yourself.

In post #85 you said that "good football and winning football are one and the same".

Warnock won more matches in 2005-06 than our current team has so Warnock must have played the best football since Harris.

 

[oldblade]

This method of measurement breaks down when you look at the history of football as a whole, though.

So much about the way the modern day game is played has improved massively. Fitness, diet, tactics, data, preparation & organisation, the list goes on.

If you base how good a team is solely on their league achievements in their own time it leads you to absurd conclusions, such as that a title winning team from 1920 are 'better' than the current Liverpool side (who haven't won the title), when in reality if they played each other the older team would get steamrollered.

You can redefine 'better' as relative to their time if you want, and I understand why you might do that, but I think the only reasonable way to judge is to consider all the factors involved.

No it doesn't break down. In my view the opposite is true. The theory stands up even more. The fact that the game has moved on over the years actually emphasises even more that a side can only be measured against it's contemporaries.

You can only beat or lose to the sides that are around in your particular era. Comparing them to sides of different eras is guesswork and our conclusions are usually based on our own personal bias. IE - we all have our favourite United sides and will argue black and blue that our particular favourite is better than those of any other era.

Yes, you can make an argument to say that the superior fitness levels of today's side might see it beat sides from the past. However, that ignores the probability that if those sides from the past entered a time machine and were moved into the present they would have to undergo a different training regime. They would be fitter, the tactics employed would be different, etc. Who is to say they would not beat today's side? Bassett's sides often beat sides of their time that were considered to have more progressive tactics and to be far more skilful.

The John Harris side of the early 1970s gave us a lot of pleasure and was full of very skilful players. From November onwards the pitches of the time were usually like bomb sites. The ball was heavier, and yet they often produced very entertaining and skilful football. But if transported to the future, could it beat today's side without undergoing today's training regime. Possibly not.

But on the flip side, how would today's side perform if sent back in time to play on those pitches and with that ball. Also could they cope with the vicious (often unpunished) challenges that went on back then? Who knows?

the fact that pitches, balls and even the kit are different, the fact that the tactics and fitness levels are different emphasises even mare that you can only be measured against the sides that are around in your particular era. To say that a side from the past would be steam rollered if it played a side from the present is supposition, because the side from the past would be trained differently if around now and would be playing in a different environment.

It's all opinions, but in answer to the original post, I feel the last time we had a better side was under Warnock, because it finished higher up the league than the current side.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Let’s be honest, Warnock isn’t a patch on Bassett. Dave Bassett literally took a pub team that had no money and playing an exciting brand of football steamrollered it’s way to the top flight where we remained for 4 years, we should name part of the ground after him.

Warnock on the other hand pissed around for 7 years got us up and played the dullest football the PL has ever seen and promptly got us relegated, Warnock should have left after triple failure season and being replaced by a football manager.

 

[Pinchy]

You've just massively contradicted yourself.

In post #85 you said that "good football and winning football are one and the same".

Warnock won more matches in 2005-06 than our current team has so Warnock must have played the best football since Harris.

The Referral Unit beckons...

 

[Pinchy]

Let’s be honest, Warnock isn’t a patch on Bassett. Dave Bassett literally took a pub team that had no money and playing an exciting brand of football steamrollered it’s way to the top flight where we remained for 4 years, we should name part of the ground after him.

Warnock on the other hand pissed around for 7 years got us up and played the dullest football the PL has ever seen and promptly got us relegated, Warnock should have left after triple failure season and being replaced by a football manager.

Foxy, pass me one of those half-likes, would you?

 

[itsinyerblood]

The current Wilder side has faced tougher competition over the last two seasons than Bassett’s side did in 1990 or Warnocks side did in 2006.

If (IF) Wilder gets us promoted it would rank above both those other two promotions to the top flight in my lifetime imo.

That’s not to belittle either of the other two promotions both were great feats, the 1990 one in particular as just 18 months previously it was 50/50 that the club was going to go under.

I'd just add that should Wilder achieve promotion, keeping the Blades in the top flight would be the cherry on the cake. It would consolidate, allow us to strengthen, and provide a level of optimism that would help the club build from within. A new Kop, Wilder at our helm, and the type of football that we now associate with this grand old club. Remaining in the Premiership would be the thing that underlines everything else, here's hoping.....UTMB!!