What is it with this obsession of having a target man ?

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

BushBlade said:
Two good central defenders would make a big difference to set pieces though. Harry chipped in with quite a few and also prevented many against us. I'd guess that if we'd have kept him our goal difference would have been better by 20.

From what I recall, Lambert wasn't used as a typical target man, despite having the right attributes. Southampton didn't leather the ball to him up the middle. They played through the midfield, moved it wide to the likes of Lallana who then cut in from wide.
If we can get a big man with good feet and good decision making, great, but I don't want a Henderson type. What will definitely improve our chances of promotion is to sign skillful players and use them properly.
Click to expand...
Having a target man doesnt mean we leather the ball up to him many times, he can be used in a lot of different ways. I wasnt thinking of how we used Brian Deane during the Bassett years but more of what you said about Lambert and how Forest and Villa used Withe or how Blackburn and Newcastle used Shearer as a target man. Someone to take the pressure off the players supporting him etc etc.

Agree about having two good central defenders to make a big difference to our set pieces but having a good target striker in the team would be a bonus to us regarding set pieces
 

Has this board been infested with Hobbits or something because a lot seem fixated with playing only little people. Last season we must have had the smallest and lightest team in all the top 4 divisions. When we played Premier sides who give space and aren't over physical it worked OK. When we played L1 teams we were found out. There is little point in playing wingers or winning corners if the ball just comes straight back because we can't get a head or anything near to the ball. Exactly the same at our end of the field where we conceded loads from corners and free kicks because we were too small and lightweight to compete. Not saying we need a static target man like say Henderson used to be, but we do need at least one (hopefully mobile) striker who's over 6ft who has some physical presence. i.e. not McNulty, Done or ... FFS BS. When FIFA bring out a rule that the ball mustn't go above shoulder height then I'll agree with the Hobbits, but until then I'll continue being realistic.
 
Gibbo89 said:
Has this board been infested with Hobbits or something because a lot seem fixated with playing only little people. Last season we must have had the smallest and lightest team in all the top 4 divisions. When we played Premier sides who give space and aren't over physical it worked OK. When we played L1 teams we were found out. There is little point in playing wingers or winning corners if the ball just comes straight back because we can't get a head or anything near to the ball. Exactly the same at our end of the field where we conceded loads from corners and free kicks because we were too small and lightweight to compete. Not saying we need a static target man like say Henderson used to be, but we do need at least one (hopefully mobile) striker who's over 6ft who has some physical presence. i.e. not McNulty, Done or ... FFS BS. When FIFA bring out a rule that the ball mustn't go above shoulder height then I'll agree with the Hobbits, but until then I'll continue being realistic.
Click to expand...
Question for you then.

If a ball is played accurately to a strikers feet, what would generally be the chances of retaining possession of the ball ?

Now compare this to if a ball is played accurately to a strikers head ?

See the point ??

As has been said, while it is accepted that we are not in the same league as the Barca's of this world, there is a very good reason why they, and other top sides, go about their business in the way they go about their business.

Good football is good football. From the Nou Camp to Concord Park.

Possession is 9 10ths. Period. It is, as far as I am aware, extremely difficult to both score a goal without the ball and to concede a goal with it !!!!

UTB

P.s I am 6'3" !!!
 
Barca are supremely good at playing in a style unique to themselves. Whenever they have been without Messi they have 'struggled'.
Why is that? Simply because if you haven't got a true genius playing for you then either always playing to feet or always playing to heads becomes far too predictable and easy to deal with. Possession is great when there is an end result. Last season for us far too often there wasn't any because we had become predictable. Swansea were an example of a side which relied solely on playing to feet and were initially successful. However once other teams worked them out they became easy to beat. IMHO good sides have the ability to play whichever way gets results on the day.
 
DronnieBlade said:
Question for you then.

If a ball is played accurately to a strikers feet, what would generally be the chances of retaining possession of the ball ?

Now compare this to if a ball is played accurately to a strikers head ?

See the point ??

As has been said, while it is accepted that we are not in the same league as the Barca's of this world, there is a very good reason why they, and other top sides, go about their business in the way they go about their business.

Good football is good football. From the Nou Camp to Concord Park.

Possession is 9 10ths. Period. It is, as far as I am aware, extremely difficult to both score a goal without the ball and to concede a goal with it !!!!

UTB

P.s I am 6'3" !!!
Click to expand...



Barcelona are able to pick the best, most skilful and creative players in the world. I don't think you should use them as some sort of proof that you have to play small strikers in the English third division. Besides, with Pique, Busquets, Rakitic and Suarez they probably have more height than we did in a lot of games last season. If you look at their Champions League final opponents Juventus you will find some tall strikers. Morata is 6'2, Llorente is 6'5 and they've just signed Mandzukic who's also 6'2. Is Massimiliano Allegri also obsessed?

The main point though is that both Barcelona and Juventus, and every other successful side, can hold their own in every aspect of the game, including physically and aerially. Unlike us last season. We have to fix that. When you say that you want Billy Sharp and Matt Done to play up front next season, what would be your plan for the rest of the team to make sure that we'll cope?
 
Gibbo89 said:
Barca are supremely good at playing in a style unique to themselves. Whenever they have been without Messi they have 'struggled'.
Why is that? Simply because if you haven't got a true genius playing for you then either always playing to feet or always playing to heads becomes far too predictable and easy to deal with. Possession is great when there is an end result. Last season for us far too often there wasn't any because we had become predictable. Swansea were an example of a side which relied solely on playing to feet and were initially successful. However once other teams worked them out they became easy to beat. IMHO good sides have the ability to play whichever way gets results on the day.
Click to expand...
Swansea's style of play changed because they changed managers and because at the level they are now at, you can't just try to out-football sides like Man U and Arsenal. It would be naive, you have to be tighter.
And they still play attractive football, giving good service to their striker.

I agree about having flexibility to your style of play and sometimes you do have to move the ball from back to front quickly. You do have to have a 'default' style of play though.

A good example is Everton, who paid stupid money for Lukaku but don't really play to his strengths. On the occasions they do, he looks better but Martinez is a bit of a purist and likes to set his team up to keep possession. If managers buy players like Lukaku, or Ballotelli, they have to play a style that suits those types of players, not shoehorn them into the side. And if they don't want to go quick and direct, don't buy those types of striker.
 
Bergen Blade said:
Barcelona are able to pick the best, most skilful and creative players in the world. I don't think you should use them as some sort of proof that you have to play small strikers in the English third division. Besides, with Pique, Busquets, Rakitic and Suarez they probably have more height than we did in a lot of games last season. If you look at their Champions League final opponents Juventus you will find some tall strikers. Morata is 6'2, Llorente is 6'5 and they've just signed Mandzukic who's also 6'2. Is Massimiliano Allegri also obsessed?

The main point though is that both Barcelona and Juventus, and every other successful side, can hold their own in every aspect of the game, including physically and aerially. Unlike us last season. We have to fix that. When you say that you want Billy Sharp and Matt Done to play up front next season, what would be your plan for the rest of the team to make sure that we'll cope?
Click to expand...

English L1 is not La Liga or Serie A. You are correct. The comparison was somewhat tongue in cheek, made purely to emphasise the importance of possession. Having possession is one thing, making good use of it is a whole different chapter that I won't cover here.

I want a strike pair that, potentially has 40 goals in them. I believe that Sharp and Done have this in them. The conditions required for this to have a chance in hell of coming off would, amongst other things, mean that we play the ball progressively through midfield and transition in to attacking areas WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT TO DO SO. This may well mean a recycling of the ball in order to move the oppos defence and midfield players around, thus creating space for our players to exploit. This requires a degree of patience !!!! Not a virtue the average Blades fan has I will grant you !!!!!!!!

Whatever your views may be on Sharp, I think we can all agree that Adkins may as well get any lad off the kop to play up top for us if he is expecting him to run the channels in the way Cackwell wanted him to do for Beattie. Absolute waste of time. Sharp is a box player who is very good at losing his marker and finding that telling bit of space that can be exploited. Done could be a perfect foil in this regard. The potential of the partnership excites me. We will see !!

Getting to your other point, I am also a realist. Other teams do their homework. If they see we are a squad of midgets, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to work out we would be vulnerable aerially / at set plays etc.they would obviously look to exploit this.

In short, any team (including the likes of Barca) will require players with height / strength in their team. It just does not HAVE to be the striker / strikers. For what it's worth, I would almost always play two strong CBs of at least 6 feet + ( or if shorter, very capable in the air a la Roger Nillsen) and and least one of the CM players of the same type of profile.

UTB
 
Henderson is available. Released from Leyton Orient.

Which one of you divvies is gonna be the first to say he could do the target man job you so desire ??

UTB
 
DronnieBlade said:
Henderson is available. Released from Leyton Orient.

Which one of you divvies is gonna be the first to say he could do the target man job you so desire ??

UTB
Click to expand...

DONTBRINGEMBACK

You mentioned him on the wrong thread. Henderson would be more appropriate on the 'Old Blades pubs (feightin')' thread.

All he ever wanted to do was to fight the centre half marking him. Oh, and the ref.

A complete waste of money tosser and although I have very strong Bladey Blade tendencies I wouldn't even have him back sweeping the Kop.
 
DronnieBlade said:
Did Bristol City have one ?

Did MK Dons ?

Did Preston ? (Kev D mostly used as a sub).

Why are a large section of our fans fixated about having a target man ?

"Got to ave a big un, wi big muscles, like Hendo or Higgo"

I disagree fundamentally with this assertion. I think it's outdated and flawed. Give me a good little un like Done any day of the week.

Pace and trickery scares defenders, being "ard" dunt.

UTB
Click to expand...

Yes Bristol City had Aaron Wilbraham.
 
Darthblade said:
Indeed ...... we tried again last season without a target man type of player ....... and predictably failed again.

Shall we try the same failed plan again this year ? :rolleyes:

UTB & FTP
Click to expand...
Did Wigan and Burton use "Target men" ?

No .

This notion that a target man is essential for success in this division is fundamentally flawed.

Beginning to increasingly agree with Pinchy.

The gerritupanatem brigade at BDTBL have much to answer for.

The academy is schooled to play a modern version of football. The idea, going back to Pembertons time is that with this particular type of coaching being consistent with the philosophy of the first team squad, the transition from academy to first team is much less difficult. Passing, pressing and movement.

We have seen the first team under Weir, Clough and Adkins try (and I will accept fail) to adopt a possession based game. Passing the ball sideways a lot, which has led to fans frustrations. I get this, I really do. Fans will have had enough of us fannying around trying to play like Barcelona when we simply do not have the right players to execute.

The introduction of a higher tempo to this overall strategy would, IMHO, make a world of difference.

In short, we are on the right path, it's not time to go back to the 80s, and I have faith that Wilder recognises that tempo in our play has been our biggest problem and is taking steps to rectify it.

If you can't or won't see this then fuck it, get Hanson, Hendo et al so that we can have a bit of WWF down at the Lane rather than good, exciting and winning football.

UTB
 
One of the best displays of football I saw last season was Burnley against Fulham. Burnley had Gray and Vokes up front, both of whom played blinders and had a great partnership.

Vokes as we know is a big bugger, but he scores goals, while Gray is a bit like Billy - he'll hold the play up surprisingly well for a so called 'poacher', while he also had a turn of pace and a lightening shot.

While a TM isn't essential, it's bloody useful to know that you can hoof the ball up front when you're under pressure, and there's someone up there who can win a cheap foul, or keep hold of it for some valuable seconds.


Oh - and having someone with half the nous that Joey Barton does in midfield would also help :p
 
From the pig end said:
Get good enough wingers and you can play with a poaching midget upfront
Click to expand...
DronnieBlade said:
Henderson is available. Released from Leyton Orient.

Which one of you divvies is gonna be the first to say he could do the target man job you so desire ??

UTB
Click to expand...

You are 1-0 down in the 80th minute, winning corner after corner, free kick after free-kick, and like 99% of teams would do, you start going long and getting the ball into the box early.

You look to the bench, you see James Hanson and Marc McNulty. Who do you bring on?
 

HeCanDoMagic said:
You are 1-0 down in the 80th minute, winning corner after corner, free kick after free-kick, and like 99% of teams would do, you start going long and getting the ball into the box early.

You look to the bench, you see James Hanson and Marc McNulty. Who do you bring on?
Click to expand...
Does it have to be Hanson? Or can I pick a different player that doesn't play for us?;)
I get your point.
 
DronnieBlade said:
Did Bristol City have one ?

Did MK Dons ?

Did Preston ? (Kev D mostly used as a sub).

Why are a large section of our fans fixated about having a target man ?

"Got to ave a big un, wi big muscles, like Hendo or Higgo"

I disagree fundamentally with this assertion. I think it's outdated and flawed. Give me a good little un like Done any day of the week.

Pace and trickery scares defenders, being "ard" dunt.

UTB
Click to expand...


Bristol had 2. Aaron Wilbraham and Matt Smith.

Preston and MK less so but they had good all round forwards who were mobile but could also look after themselves physically (Garner, Beckford, Aobe etc.). Sharp falls into this category for us to some extent but he's pretty small and doesn't really have pace either. He works hard and competes physically though. If Done or Adams did more of that, I'd agree that we don't need a target man though it can be a handy plan B to chuck a big man on with 20 minutes when you're chasing a goal.
 
1danewhitehouse said:
Bristol had 2. Aaron Wilbraham and Matt Smith.

Preston and MK less so but they had good all round forwards who were mobile but could also look after themselves physically (Garner, Beckford, Aobe etc.). Sharp falls into this category for us to some extent but he's pretty small and doesn't really have pace either. He works hard and competes physically though. If Done or Adams did more of that, I'd agree that we don't need a target man though it can be a handy plan B to chuck a big man on with 20 minutes when you're chasing a goal.
Click to expand...

A bit like Chief a few years back?
 
1danewhitehouse said:
Bristol had 2. Aaron Wilbraham and Matt Smith.

Preston and MK less so but they had good all round forwards who were mobile but could also look after themselves physically (Garner, Beckford, Aobe etc.). Sharp falls into this category for us to some extent but he's pretty small and doesn't really have pace either. He works hard and competes physically though. If Done or Adams did more of that, I'd agree that we don't need a target man though it can be a handy plan B to chuck a big man on with 20 minutes when you're chasing a goal.
Click to expand...

Preston had Kevin Davies...
 
Ideally, it's good to have a big forward but one who has more to his game. That's why a lot are calling for Akinde. He has strengths that Sharp doesn't so might well be a good fit. He's big, strong and quick. Sharp is small, not particularly quick but a hard working, aggressive, clever forward. There would be potential for them to forge a great partnership with Adams and DCL developing along the way.

Wigan had Craig davies but didn't play him that much. They also had Grigg who is a good all rounder. I think that can work but someone like Done for example can't make the ball stick up front and that can become a problem.
 
1danewhitehouse said:
You're right but I don't think he played regularly did he? Garner and/or Beckford seemed to be the preferred option with Davies being the plan B.
Click to expand...

He made 32 league appearances that promotion season (mostly from the bench).

According to some teams don't need a player of Kevin Davies' type for a Plan B. Would never work would it? *bangs head repeatedly on desk*
 
Having a "target man." Is just a get out clause for a midfield and defence who haven't got the brains to look up and pass the ball properly.
 
DronnieBlade said:
Did Wigan and Burton use "Target men" ?

No .

This notion that a target man is essential for success in this division is fundamentally flawed.

Beginning to increasingly agree with Pinchy.

The gerritupanatem brigade at BDTBL have much to answer for.

The academy is schooled to play a modern version of football. The idea, going back to Pembertons time is that with this particular type of coaching being consistent with the philosophy of the first team squad, the transition from academy to first team is much less difficult. Passing, pressing and movement.

We have seen the first team under Weir, Clough and Adkins try (and I will accept fail) to adopt a possession based game. Passing the ball sideways a lot, which has led to fans frustrations. I get this, I really do. Fans will have had enough of us fannying around trying to play like Barcelona when we simply do not have the right players to execute.

The introduction of a higher tempo to this overall strategy would, IMHO, make a world of difference.

In short, we are on the right path, it's not time to go back to the 80s, and I have faith that Wilder recognises that tempo in our play has been our biggest problem and is taking steps to rectify it.

If you can't or won't see this then fuck it, get Hanson, Hendo et al so that we can have a bit of WWF down at the Lane rather than good, exciting and winning football.

UTB
Click to expand...

Wigan had 6 foot 2 inch Craig Davies.

95% of teams that get promoted, at any level, have some sort of physical presence up front as an option.
 
CarlMcBlade said:
Having a "target man." Is just a get out clause for a midfield and defence who haven't got the brains to look up and pass the ball properly.
Click to expand...

Haha! You cant really believe that.

Christ, a target man/physical striker doesnt mean it dictates the playing style, it provides an option should a game dictate that one is needed.

How people cant see that is baffling.
 
HeCanDoMagic said:
Wigan had 6 foot 2 inch Craig Davies.

95% of teams that get promoted, at any level, have some sort of physical presence up front as an option.
Click to expand...

But Craig Davies is not a target man, there is a huge difference between Hanson and Davies. Hanson can't run the channels and probably about as much use as a chocolate fire guard pressing too.
 
sheffielder said:
But Craig Davies is not a target man, there is a huge difference between Hanson and Davies. Hanson can't run the channels and probably about as much use as a chocolate fire guard pressing too.
Click to expand...
If you look back at how he was used at the clubs he's been at then he was used for his physical presence.

Its not that I'm arguing for/against Hansen. I just don't get how people want to dismiss having a physical presence up front.
 
sheffielder said:
But Craig Davies is not a target man, there is a huge difference between Hanson and Davies. Hanson can't run the channels and probably about as much use as a chocolate fire guard pressing too.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. A forward should be more than just a target man. But the i suppose it depends on your interpretation. Ideally a "target man" would be able to receive the ball with his back to goal, play in others around him, score goals, be good in the air, press, harry etc. just being a big strong lump is not enough but similalrly not having a big strong forward of any kind is also problematic.

DCL has a good jump on him but as yet, his flick ons go to nobody and he doesn't have the strength, touch or guile to hold it up and play in those around him. I hope we can develop those attributes in him as he's also quicker than a lot of target men.
 
Having a tall strong striker who is good in the air and can hold a ball up is a no brainer for me. Even if it's just to come of the bench so we can change our play. People like Shearer, Drogba, Benteke and Lambert make teams. It's being able to have an out ball. It's being able to break quickly. When done well it's devastating.
 

One thing we should have learned from having Chris Porter lead the line is that a target man is not worth using as a starter unless he is a regular scorer.

If your big man can get a dozen or more a season, it may be worth having.

If not, but he's happy with some starts and coming off the bench a lot, getting half a dozen goals and some assists (Wayne Allison in 2002-3, basically), he's probably worth having

If he's your lone striker or one of a pair and he can't score more than 7 or 8 a year in 30+ starts...that's not going to help get us promoted.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Back
Top Bottom