We've been Swiss Rambled - Accounts explained

[SwissBlade]

I've got the impression that the way Wilder recruited was very thorough. Stats based models but also (remembering things he's said and that deadline day video over Devante Cole) Wilder talking to people close to him that knew the target, vetting the personality and attitude, basically wanting to know as much as possible about a player he was looking at. None of that is a bad thing, but it seems like as we've progressed and the need to expand into other markets has grown, and we just aren't set up for that.

To give both sides, I take it that Wilder wanted to stick with a market he knew that well, and the board were saying that the players we need aren't available in it. And the problem which neither of them is at fault for is that the speed with which we jumped up the divisions didn't prepare us with a scouting network.

It's not hard to imagine how the tension could rise between those two positions, and it's easy to look at the current situation and say we obviously should've looked further afield, but if we were in the same position with a bunch of overpaid foreigners we'd all be saying we should've stuck to what we know. The Prince said that Wilder had one eye on the Championship and wanted players to develop and that would be comfortable grinding it out in those fixtures (let's say this season a trip to Wycombe on a cold rainy Tuesday night). If true that still might turn out to be a wise approach, but as I said, easy to see how the tension can rise from differing perspectives.

I think thats pretty alligned with my thoughts. A few things i'd add/ reiterate though is that whilst many aspects of the club have clearly developed as we've progressed, there are two areas which have seemingly been contentious, the latter being the more complex:

a) Training facilities - This one i can't make head nor tail of, it was mentioned by Wilder in the Championship that we needed a facility like Swansea, the Prince got on and started with the planning and works. But for whatever reason, it hasn't yet materialised. If we're wanting to attract the best players for our budget, then we do need to have great facilities for training to give the impression that we're a big club here for the long term. My view is: get this done. Get it done quick and make it the best we can for First team, U23's and academy at all levels.

b) Recruitment - This is clearly the big one, we've seen on the pitch that the signings we make take time to settle. Wilder has never been one to stick with failing players and in the past moved on players that we'd moved too fast for. So we can only assume that the signings made have been not so much right now, but right for development. As i said, thats fine.

A good point you touched on PokerBlade is that Wilder was very good in the ponds we were in (League one, Championship, Young Prem Players) and his methodical approach towards recruiting these players can almost certainly be applied to new markets.

Given this tried and trusted model, he should've been entrusted to then develop the scouting and recruiting network by bringing in people that could go and work their magic (under Wilder's stewardship) in the new markets, bringing in people with experience in those markets was surely the way to go, they would report to Wilder and they would target the players he wanted.

As the Prince himself said, he wanted Wilder for the long time (4 + 1 contract and offer of 1% of the United World Shares), so allow the long term Manager (Coach) build this part up.

Linked to that, but i should stress that this was not seemingly a bone of contention, at least according to the Prince, was the DoF role (The Prince cleverly states there was no plan for a DoF for 1-2 years, but there must be another way, which basically means that he wanted someone else to be involved in recruitment). If you look how far the club has come over the recent years, the way that Wilder has become very much a "Ferguson" type figure, having a fantastic team under him and being respected by the board. It would make no sense at all to bring in a DoF above Wilder, but it would make complete sense to elevate Wilder's position to something more than a head coach (albeit one involved in recruitment), which was the way that the Prince saw Wilder (As per his interview).

The Prince has to also remember that there are two transfer windows per season, he can chuck what he wants into the Summer window, but then the plan must also be followed in January as well to ensure that the plan has been followed through. Saying that he wasn't sure if Wilder ould be at the club because Wilder had already resigned once, was a poor excuse. You either back the manager 100% or you get rid.

The meddling and interference from the Prince saying that he didn't want to spend on the players Wilder wanted is again an indication that Wilder was not in complete control of recruitment (Prince stated Wilder wanted a DM but Prince thought the team needed a creative player as we didn't create enough chances to score.)

All that said, Wilder was accountable for the recruitiment, the Prince has said that. Wilder also has to accept and defend his position that the recruitment has been poor (no argument that we've not progressed the squad so far) for this season and that analysis must be done when the season is over. Its not to say that you follow any manager blindly all season, but with a long term manager, things don't go bad overnight. So in Wilders case, its a post season disection of all aspects of the season.

Finally though, not linked to the above, we have "United World". The Prince has used the United name to develop his own empire. I have no idea of how this impacted Wilder leaving, I don't know if Wilder saw that the "United World" empire was diluting his control and ability to do his job at Sheffield United. I have no evidence that this was the case, but we've certainly not had any indication from the Prince on what his vision is for United World.

 

[BushBlade]

Saying that he wasn't sure if Wilder ould be at the club because Wilder had already resigned once, was a poor excuse. You either back the manager 100% or you get rid.

Again, very good point. If you don’t back the manager, the writing’s on the wall. PA + KM did similar to Adkins, refusing to let him make any permanent signings in the JTW.

 

[billyblademan]

Again, very good point. If you don’t back the manager, the writing’s on the wall. PA + KM did similar to Adkins, refusing to let him make any permanent signings in the JTW.

There's 2 ways to look at this - to play devil's advocate, how much worse would we have been if Wilder had spunked another £50m on crap, and then resigned? Then new manager would be anchored with his predecessors rubbish.

Clearly, the moment CW tendered his resignation was the moment the trust went. It's like the first mini break up with your Missus - you might patch things up again and continue for a while longer, but chances are it's irreparable in the long run.

The relationship was clearly cracked/broken over recent times, and the results on the pitch have papered over these cracks, and kept the good feels coming. It didn't sound as though CW's initial resignation was a 'Boss, results haven't been good enough and I accept that. I'll leave for nothing'.......he was just fed up, and the results were no longer covering that fact.

This is going off tangent, but maybe its like not really liking your Missus, but she's funny after a drink or two, and great in the sack. Even though you're not particularly happy, the good times keep things going. Then she no longer drinks, or no longer joins you in the bedroom, and the stark reality of an unhappy relationship remains.

 

[BushBlade]

There's 2 ways to look at this - to play devil's advocate, how much worse would we have been if Wilder had spunked another £50m on crap, and then resigned? Then new manager would be anchored with his predecessors rubbish.

Clearly, the moment CW tendered his resignation was the moment the trust went. It's like the first mini break up with your Missus - you might patch things up again and continue for a while longer, but chances are it's irreparable in the long run.

The relationship was clearly cracked/broken over recent times, and the results on the pitch have papered over these cracks, and kept the good feels coming. It didn't sound as though CW's initial resignation was a 'Boss, results haven't been good enough and I accept that. I'll leave for nothing'.......he was just fed up, and the results were no longer covering that fact.

This is going off tangent, but maybe its like not really liking your Missus, but she's funny after a drink or two, and great in the sack. Even though you're not particularly happy, the good times keep things going. Then she no longer drinks, or no longer joins you in the bedroom, and the stark reality of an unhappy relationship remains.

Rather than analogies (and I like yours), I see it as a bloke who’s been involved in professional football all his adult life, who’s successfully run several clubs, being told by a bloke who has less experience what he’s done wrong and what he should be doing. If he doesn’t believe that what is being suggested will work, he’s going to resist and keep resisting until they fall out. And when you fall out with your boss, it’s not your boss who’s going to leave.

 

[PokerBlade]

I think thats pretty alligned with my thoughts. A few things i'd add/ reiterate though is that whilst many aspects of the club have clearly developed as we've progressed, there are two areas which have seemingly been contentious, the latter being the more complex:

a) Training facilities - This one i can't make head nor tail of, it was mentioned by Wilder in the Championship that we needed a facility like Swansea, the Prince got on and started with the planning and works. But for whatever reason, it hasn't yet materialised. If we're wanting to attract the best players for our budget, then we do need to have great facilities for training to give the impression that we're a big club here for the long term. My view is: get this done. Get it done quick and make it the best we can for First team, U23's and academy at all levels.

b) Recruitment - This is clearly the big one, we've seen on the pitch that the signings we make take time to settle. Wilder has never been one to stick with failing players and in the past moved on players that we'd moved too fast for. So we can only assume that the signings made have been not so much right now, but right for development. As i said, thats fine.

A good point you touched on PokerBlade is that Wilder was very good in the ponds we were in (League one, Championship, Young Prem Players) and his methodical approach towards recruiting these players can almost certainly be applied to new markets.

Given this tried and trusted model, he should've been entrusted to then develop the scouting and recruiting network by bringing in people that could go and work their magic (under Wilder's stewardship) in the new markets, bringing in people with experience in those markets was surely the way to go, they would report to Wilder and they would target the players he wanted.

As the Prince himself said, he wanted Wilder for the long time (4 + 1 contract and offer of 1% of the United World Shares), so allow the long term Manager (Coach) build this part up.

Linked to that, but i should stress that this was not seemingly a bone of contention, at least according to the Prince, was the DoF role (The Prince cleverly states there was no plan for a DoF for 1-2 years, but there must be another way, which basically means that he wanted someone else to be involved in recruitment). If you look how far the club has come over the recent years, the way that Wilder has become very much a "Ferguson" type figure, having a fantastic team under him and being respected by the board. It would make no sense at all to bring in a DoF above Wilder, but it would make complete sense to elevate Wilder's position to something more than a head coach (albeit one involved in recruitment), which was the way that the Prince saw Wilder (As per his interview).

The Prince has to also remember that there are two transfer windows per season, he can chuck what he wants into the Summer window, but then the plan must also be followed in January as well to ensure that the plan has been followed through. Saying that he wasn't sure if Wilder ould be at the club because Wilder had already resigned once, was a poor excuse. You either back the manager 100% or you get rid.

The meddling and interference from the Prince saying that he didn't want to spend on the players Wilder wanted is again an indication that Wilder was not in complete control of recruitment (Prince stated Wilder wanted a DM but Prince thought the team needed a creative player as we didn't create enough chances to score.)

All that said, Wilder was accountable for the recruitiment, the Prince has said that. Wilder also has to accept and defend his position that the recruitment has been poor (no argument that we've not progressed the squad so far) for this season and that analysis must be done when the season is over. Its not to say that you follow any manager blindly all season, but with a long term manager, things don't go bad overnight. So in Wilders case, its a post season disection of all aspects of the season.

Finally though, not linked to the above, we have "United World". The Prince has used the United name to develop his own empire. I have no idea of how this impacted Wilder leaving, I don't know if Wilder saw that the "United World" empire was diluting his control and ability to do his job at Sheffield United. I have no evidence that this was the case, but we've certainly not had any indication from the Prince on what his vision is for United World.

I don't think I can add a lot to that because I agree with too much of it.

The training ground stuff baffles me. Most of the rumoured problems are the type of thing that should be pocket change (and the Prince more or less said so) and aside from someone dropping the ball on writing a cheque I don't know why it's an issue. The stuff about a roof seems like the kind of thing where a leaked photo from a player/coach would embarrass the board into action if they were really being that stubborn.

If the board weren't savvy before then you'd hope they'd learned their lessons back with Clough (and Adkins to a lesser degree) and his abysmal recruitment policy of filling up the squad with mediocre players. Maybe Wilder earned their trust early on and only recently has this started to become an issue.

I'm still gutted to lose Wilder, I'm just finding it very hard to take his side given the position we're in and some of the transfer issues we've had. I found it interesting when the Prince mentioned Wilder only coming to them with one name, because that seemed to fit in with the impression we've had of chasing players for long periods (Leonard and Holmes were on the radar for a long time, and was it Dan Burn we were linked with for ages?). To some extent boards have to "meddle". A club like us can't write blank cheques and managers need some oversight. One of the board's jobs is hiring and firing managers and that can't reasonably be done without having a certain remit for them to work with.

Ultimately it comes down to details we're not privy to. Exactly what changes to recruitment the board wanted to see, and to what extent Wilder really was being too stubborn about looking further afield. I'm not one of those who thinks that every time there's a falling out that one side needs to be clearly in the wrong, and sometimes compromise isn't agreeable or even possible.

 

[Come from away]

I think thats pretty alligned with my thoughts. A few things i'd add/ reiterate though is that whilst many aspects of the club have clearly developed as we've progressed, there are two areas which have seemingly been contentious, the latter being the more complex:

a) Training facilities - This one i can't make head nor tail of, it was mentioned by Wilder in the Championship that we needed a facility like Swansea, the Prince got on and started with the planning and works. But for whatever reason, it hasn't yet materialised. If we're wanting to attract the best players for our budget, then we do need to have great facilities for training to give the impression that we're a big club here for the long term. My view is: get this done. Get it done quick and make it the best we can for First team, U23's and academy at all levels.

b) Recruitment - This is clearly the big one, we've seen on the pitch that the signings we make take time to settle. Wilder has never been one to stick with failing players and in the past moved on players that we'd moved too fast for. So we can only assume that the signings made have been not so much right now, but right for development. As i said, thats fine.

A good point you touched on PokerBlade is that Wilder was very good in the ponds we were in (League one, Championship, Young Prem Players) and his methodical approach towards recruiting these players can almost certainly be applied to new markets.

Given this tried and trusted model, he should've been entrusted to then develop the scouting and recruiting network by bringing in people that could go and work their magic (under Wilder's stewardship) in the new markets, bringing in people with experience in those markets was surely the way to go, they would report to Wilder and they would target the players he wanted.

As the Prince himself said, he wanted Wilder for the long time (4 + 1 contract and offer of 1% of the United World Shares), so allow the long term Manager (Coach) build this part up.

Linked to that, but i should stress that this was not seemingly a bone of contention, at least according to the Prince, was the DoF role (The Prince cleverly states there was no plan for a DoF for 1-2 years, but there must be another way, which basically means that he wanted someone else to be involved in recruitment). If you look how far the club has come over the recent years, the way that Wilder has become very much a "Ferguson" type figure, having a fantastic team under him and being respected by the board. It would make no sense at all to bring in a DoF above Wilder, but it would make complete sense to elevate Wilder's position to something more than a head coach (albeit one involved in recruitment), which was the way that the Prince saw Wilder (As per his interview).

The Prince has to also remember that there are two transfer windows per season, he can chuck what he wants into the Summer window, but then the plan must also be followed in January as well to ensure that the plan has been followed through. Saying that he wasn't sure if Wilder ould be at the club because Wilder had already resigned once, was a poor excuse. You either back the manager 100% or you get rid.

The meddling and interference from the Prince saying that he didn't want to spend on the players Wilder wanted is again an indication that Wilder was not in complete control of recruitment (Prince stated Wilder wanted a DM but Prince thought the team needed a creative player as we didn't create enough chances to score.)

All that said, Wilder was accountable for the recruitiment, the Prince has said that. Wilder also has to accept and defend his position that the recruitment has been poor (no argument that we've not progressed the squad so far) for this season and that analysis must be done when the season is over. Its not to say that you follow any manager blindly all season, but with a long term manager, things don't go bad overnight. So in Wilders case, its a post season disection of all aspects of the season.

Finally though, not linked to the above, we have "United World". The Prince has used the United name to develop his own empire. I have no idea of how this impacted Wilder leaving, I don't know if Wilder saw that the "United World" empire was diluting his control and ability to do his job at Sheffield United. I have no evidence that this was the case, but we've certainly not had any indication from the Prince on what his vision is for United World.

The meddling and interference from the Prince saying that he didn't want to spend on the players Wilder wanted is again an indication that Wilder was not in complete control of recruitment (Prince stated Wilder wanted a DM but Prince thought the team needed a creative player as we didn't create enough chances to score.)

Given the significant drop in our defensive record would suggest that CW was correct.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Given the significant drop in our defensive record would suggest that CW was correct.

You think we're more porous defensively this season because we're missing a defensive midfielder, rather than the fact our defence has been totally decimated?
It also opens up the question as to why Wilder didn't remedy it, or ask for a defensive midfielder originally for January.

Our attacking intent has also reduced massively. Would that have been improved by the signing of a DM?

 

[billyblademan]

You think we're more porous defensively this season because we're missing a defensive midfielder, rather than the fact our defence has been totally decimated?
It also opens up the question as to why Wilder didn't remedy it, or ask for a defensive midfielder originally for January.

Our attacking intent has also reduced massively. Would that have been improved by the signing of a DM?

The Prince said repeatedly that CW wanted a DM in January, and was turned down, because he thought scoring goals was the problem!

Personally would be inclined to compare the number of starts by last years back 6 (including DH) and this years, rather than necessarily thinking a DM was the problem however it seems thats what Chris was after.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

The Prince said repeatedly that CW wanted a DM in January, and was turned down, because he thought scoring goals was the problem!

Personally would be inclined to compare the number of starts by last years back 6 (including DH) and this years, rather than necessarily thinking a DM was the problem however it seems thats what Chris was after.

I thought he said they'd been looking for an attacking midfield and then CWs target changed, ie we were looking at Lingard and then changed our target.

 

[Revolution]

The meddling and interference from the Prince saying that he didn't want to spend on the players Wilder wanted is again an indication that Wilder was not in complete control of recruitment (Prince stated Wilder wanted a DM but Prince thought the team needed a creative player as we didn't create enough chances to score.)

Given the significant drop in our defensive record would suggest that CW was correct.

The fact that we have scored only 17 goals, are a cert to break the club record for fewest goals scored in a season, and are still in with a chance of setting the PL record in that category suggests the Prince had a point.

 

[Nosworthys Throw]

As an aside, Eddie Davies made his money through Strix and their core product is still kettle elements. They have watertight (as it were) patents that even the Chinese don’t mess around with. I’ve seen their patent lawyers in action at an exhibition, involving the police to get a manufacturer’s stand closed down because they were showing products infringing Strix’s patents.

Its always a mad day out at the kettle element exhibition! Hope it doesn't get cancelled this year!

 

[Come from away]

The fact that we have scored only 17 goals, are a cert to break the club record for fewest goals scored in a season, and are still in with a chance of setting the PL record in that category suggests the Prince had a point.

The drop off in defence was far worse, so if you have money for only one player then I think you go with the professional rather than the fan. It is just a rather poor excuse for not supporting the manager. If you are financially bust, admit it rather than try to deflect responsibility.

 

[Revolution]

The drop off in defence was far worse, so if you have money for only one player then I think you go with the professional rather than the fan. It is just a rather poor excuse for not supporting the manager. If you are financially bust, admit it rather than try to deflect responsibility.

Im not convinced the defensive drop off is far worse when you are looking at historically bad goal scoring.

And FWIW our xg conceded is about where we expect to be. Our xg scored is abysmal.

 

[Original United]

What are the figures for Pork FC

3000 to QPR

 

[Balham]

Im not convinced the defensive drop off is far worse when you are looking at historically bad goal scoring.

And FWIW our xg conceded is about where we expect to be. Our xg scored is abysmal.

Not sure the first point is correct Rev. According to Understat, last season's xGA (expected goals conceded) was 53.52 so 1.41 per game and we came in at 39 conceded (+14.5). This season, we're currently at 56.76 xGA (1.9 per game) and have conceded 52 (+4.76). We have therefore coughed up enough chances to concede an additional goal every other game and the defence's performance has regressed towards the mean by 10 goals. The issue isn't performance against xGA as such, it's the regression of the xGA stat itself.

You're bang on with the xGF though. The issue this season is twofold: we're not creating enough chances (28.53 xG so under 1 per game) and when we are getting the occasional chance we're not taking it (17 scored so far). Indeed, we've scored a pitiful 10 goals from open play against an expected 20.6. Last season was bad (39 scored from an xG of 49.75) but nothing compared to this.

 

[Carlton Blade]

The drop off in defence was far worse, so if you have money for only one player then I think you go with the professional rather than the fan. It is just a rather poor excuse for not supporting the manager. If you are financially bust, admit it rather than try to deflect responsibility.

It's not worse. We've scored 28 goals in the last 41 games. 12 of those came in 5 games. You're left with only scoring 16 goals in 36 games. That's 20 games you can't win.

We only scored 39 last season and to get 54 points was certainly an outlier. We needed to be up nearer 50. We got much, much worse

 

[SwissBlade]

The fact that we have scored only 17 goals, are a cert to break the club record for fewest goals scored in a season, and are still in with a chance of setting the PL record in that category suggests the Prince had a point.

A counter to that would be that given our first season in the Premier League was based on an incredibly tight defensive unit, without scoring freely, that perhaps plugging the defensive gaps was priority...

 

[robbiez666]

A good point you touched on @PokerBlade is that Wilder was very good in the ponds we were in (League one, Championship, Young Prem Players) and his methodical approach towards recruiting these players can almost certainly be applied to new markets.

Bit of a mixed bag, surely?

 

[Trigger Blade]

Its always a mad day out at the kettle element exhibition! Hope it doesn't get cancelled this year!

Funny you should mention it, but it wasn’t a kettle element exhibition as such, it was the Canton Fair in Guangzhou. It’s a mind bogglingly big biannual trade fair, April and October where you can source absolutely anything. It didn’t happen at all in 2020 and apparently this month it’s a virtual one.

I quite enjoy being there and usually tie it in with a few days in HK, but it’s saving on airfares and I’m very happy not to be paying £200 a night, 3 nights minimum for a hotel.

Not that you asked of course

 

[Nosworthys Throw]

Funny you should mention it, but it wasn’t a kettle element exhibition as such, it was the Canton Fair in Guangzhou. It’s a mind bogglingly big biannual trade fair, April and October where you can source absolutely anything. It didn’t happen at all in 2020 and apparently this month it’s a virtual one.

I quite enjoy being there and usually tie it in with a few days in HK, but it’s saving on airfares and I’m very happy not to be paying £200 a night, 3 nights minimum for a hotel.

Not that you asked of course

Sounds nice, do they sell midfielders?

 

[bertieblade]

I think it is fair to say that the board gave Wilder a relatively free reign with signings until such time as he started to make mistakes and refused to sign foreign players or consider different options for the same position, I.e start of this season. He referred to having an unbalanced squad of 6 forwards and no creative players and buying players for the future as opposed to the here and now.
There is no doubt in my opinion that Wilder had control until such time as he proved that he could not be trusted with the transfer budget to take us forward and quite rightly the board then wanted more control.
It is business you cannot throw good money after bad and keep making the same mistakes

 

[Houston_Blade]

Sounds nice, do they sell midfielders?

No but Sun Jihai has a stand and he sells fake iphones.

 

[The Vicar]

How can ANY club be allowed to operate where their wage bill exceeds their turnover ??

If I was self-employed and did that I'd be bankrupt, surely ?

What the hell is going on with football club's finances these days.

That's why the self employed people I know pay virtually no Tax! But they do live in nice houses, drive nice cars & vans, & have foreign holidays. Maybe their spouses have good jobs?

 

[Come from away]

Im not convinced the defensive drop off is far worse when you are looking at historically bad goal scoring.

And FWIW our xg conceded is about where we expect to be. Our x

fans have opinions, owners too, but I would still (rather) back the professional