We've been Swiss Rambled - Accounts explained

[BushBlade]

All relative. Arsenal's income in their latest accounts was the lowest of the 'big six' at £343m. You can afford £200m a year in wages when you're bringing in nearly £350m in income. Brighton's issue is that they're spending £103m on wages on income of £133m. That doesn't leave enough for their other costs and that's why they posted a loss of £67m in 2019/20.

Agree. My point was that it’s relative. It’s relative to the clubs they’re competing against. The key thing for Brighton is that Tony Bloom is a very rich man and a Brighton supporter who must be aware that he’s never going to recover all the money he’s put in. He’s just done exactly what you or I would do if we had his kind of money, buy your club, improve it and leave a legacy.

 

[BushBlade]

Brighton scare me. They’ve had decent managers and have really pushed hard in their attempt to be become established.

All that time and vast expense seems have bought them very little comfort.

A lot of it was the cost of the stadium and the cost of getting promoted. Tony Bloom threw money at it until they went up.

 

[BushBlade]

If we were in debt of £300 million, I would be shitting it for the clubs future if the club lost its place in the Prem. I’m sure Bolton had similar debts?

Bolton had debts of around £180m when they went down, which was subsequently written off by their previous owner before he died. Their biggest problem came from continuing to get in debt through chasing a return to the PL, and then selling to a dodgy owner.

 

[robbiez666]

I don’t think the decision was wrong to develop the squad with Championship players. It’s the only thing we could do to remain stable and sustainable.

I actually agree with the recruitment, replacing our ageing squad of league one free transfers with young developing players is still right.

However, what I think was wrong and perhaps the fine line is convincing sponsors to invest by telling them that we’re a competitive premier league side with fabulous premier league signings. The princes recent comments are basically saying that Wilder shouldn’t have been so honest in the press conference as he’d told sponsors something different...

It’s not just us. I was watching football focus on Saturday and the pundits were saying that West Brom’s recruitment has been poor. Is it poor or is it realistic and sustainable? For me it’s the latter two

It never fails to surprise me that so many fans of this club see signing foreign players as some kind of dangerous gamble that is likely to blow up on you at any minute.

There is one club who can survive at this level with this methodology and that's Burnley who have been here for years and therefore has a solid base and a decent youth system. Who can afford to pay more wages than us as they've had vastly greater income over a sustained period. There's no room for two clubs doing this.

Our recruitment is obviously poor going on terrible. Look at who we've signed. Looked at where they play. Look at how good they've been. The wage issue is no excuse. If you can't compete with teams trying to sign the same players as you the obvious solution is to shop in a different market.

 

[Trigger Blade]

If we were in debt of £300 million, I would be shitting it for the clubs future if the club lost its place in the Prem. I’m sure Bolton had similar debts?

They owed Eddie Davies £175 million, which he wrote off in about 2015. Since then they’ve had further debts and been very close to the brink, I’ve lost track, but £300 million wouldn’t be so far out.

 

[Uncle mick]

Some might like to note this:

Because wilder trousers it all

 

[Trigger Blade]

Bolton had debts of around £180m when they went down, which was subsequently written off by their previous owner before he died. Their biggest problem came from continuing to get in debt through chasing a return to the PL, and then selling to a dodgy owner.

As an aside, Eddie Davies made his money through Strix and their core product is still kettle elements. They have watertight (as it were) patents that even the Chinese don’t mess around with. I’ve seen their patent lawyers in action at an exhibition, involving the police to get a manufacturer’s stand closed down because they were showing products infringing Strix’s patents.

 

[Snowflake]

Half the squad needs replacing this summer which will be expensive. And next season our income will drop. Hopefully we have amassed a financial cushion to achieve the squad changes

We don’t need to replace half the squad for the Championship as most are of that standard.
Add in two or three youngsters that we already have (free) and then buy two or three that are better than what we have .
We then have a very good Championship side at manageable cost.

 

[SwissBlade]

I think their are other markets available for signings than England and we missed out on a few opportunities. I also think the "this is who I really wanted" list was entirely unhelpful. Although Cash, Watkins, Wilson don't really move the needle for me either.

Like it or not (and he obviously didn't) the club was his employer and if his boss decided on a message he should have gone with it orresigndd on principle. But it's done now, no point really rehashing it.

I keep saying this but weve become transitional as we move from League one free signings, championship lower end, championship upper end.... these are markets we know. We started losing out on these markets - Maupay, Watkins etc seem widely accepted to have gone elsewhere for bigger money. Squeezed out there.

The next step was obviously to look at Premiership “bargains” (£10-20mill), but this enters into the untried and developing... Rammers and Brewster

We’d started using the european markets but that also we have to take account that to get players over we need to offer something... wages? Well we weren’t in that pond so we had to offer ourselves as a stepping stone... Berge.

These newer markets are much more competitive and harder to get right, especially when we’re paying out more money and having to change the age of the squad as players reach their twilight

 

[BushBlade]

I keep saying this but weve become transitional as we move from League one free signings, championship lower end, championship upper end.... these are markets we know. We started losing out on these markets - Maupay, Watkins etc seem widely accepted to have gone elsewhere for bigger money. Squeezed out there.

The next step was obviously to look at Premiership “bargains” (£10-20mill), but this enters into the untried and developing... Rammers and Brewster

We’d started using the european markets but that also we have to take account that to get players over we need to offer something... wages? Well we weren’t in that pond so we had to offer ourselves as a stepping stone... Berge.

These newer markets are much more competitive and harder to get right, especially when we’re paying out more money and having to change the age of the squad as players reach their twilight

It’s a good point. When you look back, the club didn’t have a scouting network at all in L1. We relied on the manager to use their own scouts. We continued this with Wilder bringing in Michell and it seems part of the dispute between him and the owners was how we geared up our scouting and recruitment to suit where we are now. But however it was done, it was going to take time to get right, given we were, effectively, starting from zero.

 

[Rodley]

These days? It’s been happening for at least 30 years.

Rightly or wrongly that’s football. Trying to be “sustainable” usually means being crap and selling your best players every year.

Some really good posts by many on this thread BTW.

 

[SwissBlade]

It’s a good point. When you look back, the club didn’t have a scouting network at all in L1. We relied on the manager to use their own scouts. We continued this with Wilder bringing in Michell and it seems part of the dispute between him and the owners was how we geared up our scouting and recruitment to suit where we are now. But however it was done, it was going to take time to get right, given we were, effectively, starting from zero.

It seems this is where the interference really became apparent. This is something which has come from the Prince (questioning Wilders signings)

I remember Wilder said back in League one, something along the lines of that he was a dinosaur, but this simply wasn’t true. He brought in and added to the sports scientists and data analysts already at the club. He added to the coaching side, he’s evolved the way we recruit as you say with the likes of Mitchell.... but it seems that he was allowed to this to a certain point and then the club decided to get more involved.

I’ve always understood since the Weir days that recruitment targets were found, checklists ticked off and then it was left to the money men to get the targets over the line.

 

[dublin 10 blade]

All relative. Arsenal's income in their latest accounts was the lowest of the 'big six' at £343m. You can afford £200m a year in wages when you're bringing in nearly £350m in income. Brighton's issue is that they're spending £103m on wages on income of £133m. That doesn't leave enough for their other costs and that's why they posted a loss of £67m in 2019/20.

I think both Arsenal and Spurs borrowed money off the Bank of England , ( I may be wrong on the bank ) to cover Covid losses
North of 100 million each , but because spurs / arsenal ain’t going down it’s not a problem, apparently

 

[Bennyand the Blades]

Where we over due for a change of ownership ?
Had the board become to set in it's attitude towards a game that has changed beyond recognition over the last 20 + yrs.?
The aim when I first stated going to the Lane was to reach the first Division, (Premiership) and our usual position was top half of the 2nd Div.(Championship) and we had never been in the third division.
Yes we had uncomfortable seasons when we did reach the 1st Div. (Premiership) but was that because there's never seems to have been a concerted effort to stay there by improving the team, in fact it was usually the opposite,
If the team faltered the boards first move seemed to be, sell our best players to get the money to buy new ones they hoped would fill the weak position, but how could this tactic possibly improve the team ?
It's felt for years now like the board is only happy when we were like a jigsaw with pieces missing, unable to challenge for promotion and unable to stay there if we got it, and it was getting worse before Mr Wilder and HRH took over, it was feeling like we were a team stuck in the third tier just treading water and resigned too our lot.
It's made a nice story when the baby found at a bus stop on Bramall lane grew up to be a millionaire, and bought the Club as a side line. (and you have to wonder where we would be now if he hadn't)
BUT in todays game you have to have an owner who's business IS the club and not just his hobby ...

 

[Chilttheblade]

How can ANY club be allowed to operate where their wage bill exceeds their turnover ??

If I was self-employed and did that I'd be bankrupt, surely ?

What the hell is going on with football club's finances these days.

United 's revenue next season will be around £60 mils(£40 from parachute payments and £20 normal turnover). With wages at £80mils last year there's every chance the ratio will be over 100%.Adding all the other costs a huge loss is a certainty.
Next season is so important for the club, if there is no promotion, it will be a challenge for the owners to maintain momentum.

 

[bongleblade]

Swiss Ramble sounds delicious can i get a slice please?

 

[robbiez666]

They seem to be decently well run and have valuable players but at the same time be a few bad results from disaster.

And this is the problem with trying to spend to stay up. It's notable that at £67 million loss corresponds with a £67 million outlay on players. I suspect next year's accounts with reflect the few million net spend last summer. I would also suspect that they'll get that £67 million back for those players eventually. They've invested a lot in potential whilst having enough in their first team to stay up.

 

[Yewsman]

The problems that I see is that we didn’t have a proper scouting and recruitment department network and it also seems that perhaps CW was resentful and ignored players put forward by Van Winkle or others. Our strategy was based on the fact that basically all the players who got us promoted to the PL had come with the club from L1, and had made “the step up”. However CW thought he could repeat this by buying Champ players like McB, Freeman, Robinson x 2 who would also make the step up but none of these players did.
Where teams have really struggled financially on relegation is where they had signed aging PL players on long contracts at very high wages so could not offload them after relegation. Fortunately we have not done that so hopefully have the chance to bounce back but the key is getting the right manager in place.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

The problems that I see is that we didn’t have a proper scouting and recruitment department network and it also seems that perhaps CW was resentful and ignored players put forward by Van Winkle or others. Our strategy was based on the fact that basically all the players who got us promoted to the PL had come with the club from L1, and had made “the step up”. However CW thought he could repeat this by buying Champ players like McB, Freeman, Robinson x 2 who would also make the step up but none of these players did.
Where teams have really struggled financially on relegation is where they had signed aging PL players on long contracts at very high wages so could not offload them after relegation. Fortunately we have not done that so hopefully have the chance to bounce back but the key is getting the right manager in place.

I've read this thread with great interest and there are some great points discussed so I've just stayed out and read with interest.

However, feel the need to comment on this though as there's a growing narrative about Wilder and his resistance to overseas players.

I'm assuming the like of Verrips, Restos and Zivkovic were Van Winkel/Utd World recommendations/signings - and they were pretty poor.

Wilder had them in the squad for 6 months and none made it through. I'd trust Wilder enough to not be so stubborn as not to play them if they were good enough.

With that background you could see why Wilder was more keen on 'staying British' and resistant to input like this.

Not for one minute defending this past Summers transfers and/or Wilder's mardy ending. Plus for every Restos there's a Ryan Leonard - but the narrative that he was resistant just because is a little wide of the mark...

 

[gordoncharles]

With that background you could see why Wilder was more keen on 'staying British' and resistant to input like this.

I would agree with that. However we/he also signed Jack Robinson, Wes Foderingham, and Max Lowe amongst others, so sadly the point is moot.

 

[Carlton Blade]

I've read this thread with great interest and there are some great points discussed so I've just stayed out and read with interest.

However, feel the need to comment on this though as there's a growing narrative about Wilder and his resistance to overseas players.

I'm assuming the like of Verrips, Restos and Zivkovic were Van Winkel/Utd World recommendations/signings - and they were pretty poor.

Wilder had them in the squad for 6 months and none made it through. I'd trust Wilder enough to not be so stubborn as not to play them if they were good enough.

With that background you could see why Wilder was more keen on 'staying British' and resistant to input like this.

Not for one minute defending this past Summers transfers and/or Wilder's mardy ending. Plus for every Restos there's a Ryan Leonard - but the narrative that he was resistant just because is a little wide of the mark...

I agree that being foreign is not a guarantee of success. But after the failure to make an impact of the previous summers signings I do think its fair to question the reluctance to look at any league other than the Championship.

I'm not talking Southern Europe or further afield. And a pre requisite of a good English speaker and an adult personality (see Moose for the opposite) was a must. But Scandinavia, Benelux, Germany etc. These were opportunities to open up the potential market and get better value for money. And with the Brexit restrictions in place they may well have missed the last opportunity for a fair while to open that up.

 

[gordoncharles]

These were opportunities to open up the potential market and get better value for money. And with the Brexit restrictions in place they may well have missed the last opportunity for a fair while to open that up.

Next season we would still have the chance to sign a player, or players, who would have enough points under the eligibility rules. After that, if not promoted, probably not.

 

[Carlton Blade]

Next season we would still have the chance to sign a player, or players, who would have enough points under the eligibility rules. After that, if not promoted, probably not.

Much smaller pool of players at higher cost

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

I would agree with that. However we/he also signed Jack Robinson, Wes Foderingham, and Max Lowe amongst others, so sadly the point is moot.

Hey look, I'm certainly not defending his record, and Robinson/Lowe/Brewster have zero business at PL level.

Its more that there appears to be some people intent on rewriting the narrative that Wilder's reluctance to 'go foreign' was based on small mindedness, racial profiling and stubborness as opposed to someone having given it a go and it not working thus sticking to what they know and it having served them well thus far...

 

[Balham]

I've read this thread with great interest and there are some great points discussed so I've just stayed out and read with interest.

However, feel the need to comment on this though as there's a growing narrative about Wilder and his resistance to overseas players.

I'm assuming the like of Verrips, Restos and Zivkovic were Van Winkel/Utd World recommendations/signings - and they were pretty poor.

Wilder had them in the squad for 6 months and none made it through. I'd trust Wilder enough to not be so stubborn as not to play them if they were good enough.

With that background you could see why Wilder was more keen on 'staying British' and resistant to input like this.

Not for one minute defending this past Summers transfers and/or Wilder's mardy ending. Plus for every Restos there's a Ryan Leonard - but the narrative that he was resistant just because is a little wide of the mark...

I agree with most of your post but this bit I just can't. I have a feeling that Wilder's departure and his behaviour in the months leading up to it revealed a petulant streak a mile wide. I'm not at all surprised that Wilder didn't play Retsos, Zivkovic and Verrips as he didn't choose them. Signing Wes Foderingham in the summer as the fifth pro keeper on the books (we were always going to sign a #1) proves that.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

I agree that being foreign is not a guarantee of success. But after the failure to make an impact of the previous summers signings I do think its fair to question the reluctance to look at any league other than the Championship.

I'm not talking Southern Europe or further afield. And a pre requisite of a good English speaker and an adult personality (see Moose for the opposite) was a must. But Scandinavia, Benelux, Germany etc. These were opportunities to open up the potential market and get better value for money. And with the Brexit restrictions in place they may well have missed the last opportunity for a fair while to open that up.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that.

I just think Wilder is the kind of bloke who tried Mousset, Retsos et al and thought - fuck it, I'd rather overpay and know what I'm getting (or not in the case of this Summer's cabal of wankness)

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

I agree with most of your post but this bit I just can't. I have a feeling that Wilder's departure and his behaviour in the months leading up to it revealed a petulant streak a mile wide. I'm not at all surprised that Wilder didn't play Retsos, Zivkovic and Verrips as he didn't choose them. Signing Wes Foderingham in the summer as the fifth pro keeper on the books (we were always going to sign a #1) proves that.

Maybe, and he has shown his true colours this season as a mardy twat, but he did give Zivkovic a few games and he was wank - so on balance I'd like to think if they'd been any good, he would have swallowed a bit of pride.

The Foderingham signing does remain a mystery though...

 

[Carlton Blade]

Wouldn't disagree with any of that.

I just think Wilder is the kind of bloke who tried Mousset, Retsos et al and thought - fuck it, I'd rather overpay and know what I'm getting (or not in the case of this Summer's cabal of wankness)

"Cabal of Wankness" The story of the Sheffield United 20/21 season

 

[Balham]

"Cabal of Wankness" The story of the Sheffield United 20/21 season

That's stringer's title sorted for the final book in the Wilder Trilogy.

 

[PokerBlade]

It seems this is where the interference really became apparent. This is something which has come from the Prince (questioning Wilders signings)

I remember Wilder said back in League one, something along the lines of that he was a dinosaur, but this simply wasn’t true. He brought in and added to the sports scientists and data analysts already at the club. He added to the coaching side, he’s evolved the way we recruit as you say with the likes of Mitchell.... but it seems that he was allowed to this to a certain point and then the club decided to get more involved.

I’ve always understood since the Weir days that recruitment targets were found, checklists ticked off and then it was left to the money men to get the targets over the line.

I've got the impression that the way Wilder recruited was very thorough. Stats based models but also (remembering things he's said and that deadline day video over Devante Cole) Wilder talking to people close to him that knew the target, vetting the personality and attitude, basically wanting to know as much as possible about a player he was looking at. None of that is a bad thing, but it seems like as we've progressed and the need to expand into other markets has grown, and we just aren't set up for that.

To give both sides, I take it that Wilder wanted to stick with a market he knew that well, and the board were saying that the players we need aren't available in it. And the problem which neither of them is at fault for is that the speed with which we jumped up the divisions didn't prepare us with a scouting network.

It's not hard to imagine how the tension could rise between those two positions, and it's easy to look at the current situation and say we obviously should've looked further afield, but if we were in the same position with a bunch of overpaid foreigners we'd all be saying we should've stuck to what we know. The Prince said that Wilder had one eye on the Championship and wanted players to develop and that would be comfortable grinding it out in those fixtures (let's say this season a trip to Wycombe on a cold rainy Tuesday night). If true that still might turn out to be a wise approach, but as I said, easy to see how the tension can rise from differing perspectives.