We gotta get out of this place

[The Crab]

Yeah mate it has been done to death and apologies for dredging it up. Just seems to me that Simonsen got more pelters at the time when for me, the real blame was elsewhere.

 

[blade too long]

I agree to an extent but quality and in particular firepower is also needed to sustain it over the course of the season. Bassett and Warnock did achieve great things and their teams were more than the sum of their parts BUT, when Bassett had his star striker sold from under him, the miracles ended. Warnock got us up at about the 5th attempt. By no coincident, it was the first season he was given the financial backing and hadn’t just lost a Bent, Devlin, Brown etc. He went out and signed a couple of the divisions better attacking, pacey players in Ifill and Webber, added some experience with the likes of Shipperly, Gillespie, Short and Unsworth, picked up some freebie bargains from our porky neighbours and saw some younger players really come of age. That was also the season we turned down serious money for Jagielka. It’s no coincidence that keeping your better players together and keeping a manager in place allows those managers to achieve success.

but from that point man city have bought far more quality than whats at Ranieris grasp , some would argue their back up 11 on paper should qualify for Europe, yet Leicester are in the box seat

 

[1danewhitehouse]

but from that point man city have bought far more quality than whats at Ranieris grasp , some would argue their back up 11 on paper should qualify for Europe, yet Leicester are in the box seat

True it's not as simple as he who spends most wins. But, in the vast majority of cases, he who flogs owt half decent, loses.

 

[blade too long]

True it's not as simple as he who spends most wins. But, in the vast majority of cases, he who flogs owt half decent, loses.

well man utd won the league after selling Ronaldo ,
so there are exceptions

 

[longinthe toothblade]

Agreed. We need to raid the lower leagues, even the Conference. Adams came from Ilkeston, and there will be more decent players down there who are looking for their big chance.

As a starting point we need to raid the 1st division and get the best we can from that.

I think they will get shut of quite a few at the end of the season but I'd be surprised if there are that many coming in. I suspect that's one of the reasons why we are "majoring" so much at present on "bringing in the kids".

Managing the fans expectations.

 

[Jostein's Bandage]

Anybody who blames a goalie for missing a penalty is being a bit daft. We probably cocked up that season by the terrible loan signing of O'Halloran. We've been consistently hopeless at loans for ages now. Other clubs get loans who score every week, we get absolute pot noodle like O'Halloran, Sammon and that black kid from Man.Utd. Forget his name. Thingy Donkey arse. Whatever. Him. Feck me, you could find better footballers in the women's league than that chump.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

well man utd won the league after selling Ronaldo ,
so there are exceptions

But have they won the Champions League since then? Have they ever been as good as when they had him?

Sometimes you can cope with the inevitability of losing your star player. But if you do it every season, it's damn near impossible to build anything.

 

[BushBlade]

Anybody who blames a goalie for missing a penalty is being a bit daft. We probably cocked up that season by the terrible loan signing of O'Halloran. We've been consistently hopeless at loans for ages now. Other clubs get loans who score every week, we get absolute pot noodle like O'Halloran, Sammon and that black kid from Man.Utd. Forget his name. Thingy Donkey arse. Whatever. Him. Feck me, you could find better footballers in the women's league than that chump.

Cofie?

 

[blade too long]

But have they won the Champions League since then? Have they ever been as good as when they had him?

Sometimes you can cope with the inevitability of losing your star player. But if you do it every season, it's damn near impossible to build anything.

star player every season , really
weve lost maguire , who wasnt everyones cup of tea even then
but some who have been posted as our star player , well were they, our best player,

think 80 per cent of clubs sell the better players , as they dont get much for the crap ones
swindon , chesterfield posh , all sold more than one of their stars for example and do every year

 

[1danewhitehouse]

star player every season , really
weve lost maguire , who wasnt everyones cup of tea even then
but some who have been posted as our star player , well were they, our best player,

think 80 per cent of clubs sell the better players , as they dont get much for the crap ones
swindon , chesterfield posh , all sold more than one of their stars for example and do every year

Jan 1998- Sold star players Deane and Fjortoft on the same day

1999- Sold star players David Holdsworth, Vas Borbokis, Olivier Tebily and Marcelo

November 2000- Sold star player Marcus Bent

February 2002- Sold star player Paul Devlin

Jan 2004- Sold star player Michael Brown

Summer 2007- Sold star player Phil Jagielka

Jan 2009- Sold star player and top scorer James Beattie

Summer 2009- Sold 2 fantastic prospects and key players (Kyles)

Summer 2010- Sold Paddy Kenny and Billy Sharp (Kenny a bigger miss than Sharp)

Summer 2011- Out go Ward, Yeates and Henderson. Admittedly not great but amongst the better players of the relegated squad.

Summer 2012- Evans sent down, Lowton sold.

Jan 2013- Sold top scorer and main outlet Nick Blackman

Summer 2013- Sold star player Kevin McDonald

Summer 2014- Sold star player Harry Maguire- After that run under Clough he was very much everyone's cup of tea,

Summer 2015- Sold start player Jamie Murphy


No we don't sell our star players at all.

 

[BushBlade]

Jan 1998- Sold star players Deane and Fjortoft on the same day

1999- Sold star players David Holdsworth, Vas Borbokis, Olivier Tebily and Marcelo

November 2000- Sold star player Marcus Bent

February 2002- Sold star player Paul Devlin

Jan 2004- Sold star player Michael Brown

Summer 2007- Sold star player Phil Jagielka

Jan 2009- Sold star player and top scorer James Beattie

Summer 2009- Sold 2 fantastic prospects and key players (Kyles)

Summer 2010- Sold Paddy Kenny and Billy Sharp (Kenny a bigger miss than Sharp)

Summer 2011- Out go Ward, Yeates and Henderson. Admittedly not great but amongst the better players of the relegated squad.

Summer 2012- Evans sent down, Lowton sold.

Jan 2013- Sold top scorer and main outlet Nick Blackman

Summer 2013- Sold star player Kevin McDonald

Summer 2014- Sold star player Harry Maguire- After that run under Clough he was very much everyone's cup of tea,

Summer 2015- Sold start player Jamie Murphy


No we don't sell our star players at all.

Hang on. 2012; Lowton, Willo, Quinny. With Evans in prison that's four of our six best players gone.
And the following season we respond to Millers' injury by selling Blackman.
And apparently we still keep losing money.
It's just madness.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

swindon , chesterfield posh , all sold more than one of their stars for example and do every year

But those clubs are not playing way below their 'natural' level, they are not supposedly a big fish in a small pond. They don't purport to have 'game-changing investment'. They don't have gate receipts from 20k through the turnstiles. Funnily they have gone backwards after selling those players too (as have we). Should that be our level of ambition?

 

[blade too long]

Jan 1998- Sold star players Deane and Fjortoft on the same day

1999- Sold star players David Holdsworth, Vas Borbokis, Olivier Tebily and Marcelo

November 2000- Sold star player Marcus Bent

February 2002- Sold star player Paul Devlin

Jan 2004- Sold star player Michael Brown

Summer 2007- Sold star player Phil Jagielka

Jan 2009- Sold star player and top scorer James Beattie

Summer 2009- Sold 2 fantastic prospects and key players (Kyles)

Summer 2010- Sold Paddy Kenny and Billy Sharp (Kenny a bigger miss than Sharp)

Summer 2011- Out go Ward, Yeates and Henderson. Admittedly not great but amongst the better players of the relegated squad.

Summer 2012- Evans sent down, Lowton sold.

Jan 2013- Sold top scorer and main outlet Nick Blackman

Summer 2013- Sold star player Kevin McDonald

Summer 2014- Sold star player Harry Maguire- After that run under Clough he was very much everyone's cup of tea,

Summer 2015- Sold start player Jamie Murphy


No we don't sell our star players at all.

so weve sold 15 decent players in 16 years
think 91 other clubs can match that

players move on
take nick blackman
had one good spell 3 months this season since he left , hardly losing van nistelrooy though is it

to be fair we got marcus bent back , what a thrill that was

 

[blade too long]

But those clubs are not playing way below their 'natural' level, they are not supposedly a big fish in a small pond. They don't purport to have 'game-changing investment'. They don't have gate receipts from 20k through the turnstiles. Funnily they have gone backwards after selling those players too (as have we). Should that be our level of ambition?

whats our natural level
weve been in the top flight 5 out of the past 40 years
had twice as long in div 3 1 in div 4 and 24 in the championship

so we are one division below our average mean position , could name 30 or 40 clubs who could argue that they are playing below their natural position

 

[1danewhitehouse]

so weve sold 15 decent players in 16 years
think 91 other clubs can match that

players move on
take nick blackman
had one good spell 3 months this season since he left , hardly losing van nistelrooy though is it

to be fair we got marcus bent back , what a thrill that was

I listed 22 players sold over that time, not sure where you got 15 from. Bare in mind that doesn’t include a boat load more decent players like CKR, Davis, Tonge, Gray, Morris, Kilgallon, Woodhouse, Wayne Quinn, Stephen Quinn, Hulse, Stead, Shelton etc. who were all sold for fees and all considered assets at the time. Nor does it include contract rebels like Williamson that were also lost or players we’ve lost to age like Ehigu, Ndlovu, Speed, McCall, Chief etc.


There’s loads of decent players been sold. I was just pointing 22 of them out and pointing out that in a lot more years than not, we have sold at least one of our very best players over that period. We clearly sell our best players nearly every season and we have done it every season without fail since we’ve been in this league. You tell me another club that and moves forward.


You play down Blackman like you played down Murphy. Fact is both would dramatically improve our floundering team. They don’t need to be Van Nistelrooy, they just need to be better than the other league 1 players they come up against. Both are proving they are whilst plying their trade in the championship.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

whats our natural level
weve been in the top flight 5 out of the past 40 years
had twice as long in div 3 1 in div 4 and 24 in the championship

so we are one division below our average mean position , could name 30 or 40 clubs who could argue that they are playing below their natural position

Do you think the supporters of those clubs compare themselves to the smaller clubs in their division selling their players to excuse it? Do you really see nothing wrong with losing our best players every year? I used the term ‘natural’ in inverted commas because it’s subjective and people will have their own ideas of what it should constitute considering historical position, trophy history, fan base, stadium size etc. Most wouldn’t set their ambitions to trying to emulate Chesterfield though. Even the Chesterfield fans are pissed off that they keep selling their better players.

 

[blade too long]

I listed 22 players sold over that time, not sure where you got 15 from. Bare in mind that doesn’t include a boat load more decent players like CKR, Davis, Tonge, Gray, Morris, Kilgallon, Woodhouse, Wayne Quinn, Stephen Quinn, Hulse, Stead, Shelton etc. who were all sold for fees and all considered assets at the time. Nor does it include contract rebels like Williamson that were also lost or players we’ve lost to age like Ehigu, Ndlovu, Speed, McCall, Chief etc.


There’s loads of decent players been sold. I was just pointing 22 of them out and pointing out that in a lot more years than not, we have sold at least one of our very best players over that period. We clearly sell our best players nearly every season and we have done it every season without fail since we’ve been in this league. You tell me another club that and moves forward.


You play down Blackman like you played down Murphy. Fact is both would dramatically improve our floundering team. They don’t need to be Van Nistelrooy, they just need to be better than the other league 1 players they come up against. Both are proving they are whilst plying their trade in the championship.

considering blackman scored something like 7 goals in his first 3 seasons after leaving us dont see how, its took him 3 years to adjust

15 , 22 players in a 16 year period is still about average , swindon sold 6 pf their first team in the summer , in one go
looking locally ,how many key players have Wednesday sold in the past 16 years , you mention Jags , Im sure the pigs sold all their star for want of a better word players on relegation from the prem too as does every single relegated club

 

[1danewhitehouse]

swindon sold 6 pf their first team in the summer , in one go

Byrne
Gladwin
Luogno
Foderinghan

Who else? Are you just making things up again?



,how many key players have Wednesday sold in the past 16 years , you mention Jags , Im sure the pigs sold all their star for want of a better word players on relegation from the prem too as does every single relegated club[/QUOTE]

I can categorically say that over the sample period, the pigs have sold far less key players than we have. If you disagree with me, name some. I think Anotinio is the only key player they've sold in about 5 or 6 years.

 

[blade too long]

so wednesday never sold di canio kovacevic petrescu carbone beevers whelan etc , wednesday went a decade selling everyone they could to stay afloat

 

[1danewhitehouse]

so wednesday never sold di canio kovacevic petrescu carbone beevers whelan etc , wednesday went a decade selling everyone they could to stay afloat

Kovacevic was a flop at Wednesday and only later came good. It's like us saying we sold our start players Simon Francis and Trianos Dellas.

Di Canio was different after serving a massive ban for his referee push.

Petrescu- yeah ok but you're going back to 1995 for that one.

Carbone- Sold for an undisclosed fee with his contract running out and being unable to get him to agree a new one (like KiIlgallon who I didn't include in the initial list)

Beevers- This is really scraping the barrel now. He had fallen well out of favour and had been loaned to MK and Millwall before being moved on permanently. It's like citing Craig Alcock as us selling our star players.

Which decade was this? Could you give me the years you're referring to? Please tell me the players they sold who were of significant quality. In the 16 year period since they got relegated I can come up with

Sibon
Brunt
Whelan
Bougherra

and ermmmm.... that's about it. Maybe Marcus Tudgay and/or Richard Cresswell at a push but they weren't seen as massive losses. That's it over a 16 year period outside the top flight where they flirted with administration. How does that compare to a club with "game-changing" investment and "no need to sell our best young players"?

Must do better with the nonsense stats when trying to argue black is white.

 

[blade too long]

Kovacevic was a flop at Wednesday and only later came good. It's like us saying we sold our start players Simon Francis and Trianos Dellas.

.

To be honest I dont see any players in blue and white as a star
but their fans had high opinions of players we think are shit , ,
you pooh pooh Beevers but a lot liked him like we liked Blackman

Id say 99 per cent of wednesday players were crap but they sold even what to them were good players
including Alan Quinn , forget who he went to

ask a wednesday fan to rate your list of lost stars and they probably laugh in your face saying they were all shit

 

[blade too long]

take the best side wednesday had since losing prem status 16 years ago , 2006 that finished 9th in the championship the year we were in the prem

Mark Crossley (on loan from Fulham)
2 DF Lee Bullen
3 DF Peter Gilbert
4 MF Kenny Lunt
5 DF Graham Coughlan
6 MF Glenn Whelan
7 MF Marcus Tudgay
8 MF Burton O'Brien
9 FW Steve MacLean
10 FW Deon Burton
11 MF Chris Brunt
12 MF Steve Adams
14 DF John Hills
15 MF Wade Small
16 DF Richard Wood
18 FW Leon Clarke

they all look shit to me but an owl would claim them like you claim your losses

sold nearly all of them that would get a fee within 3 seasons and ended up in league one again
to say we are the only club that sells its assetts is wide of the mark

 

[1danewhitehouse]

take the best side wednesday had since losing prem status 16 years ago , 2006 that finished 9th in the championship the year we were in the prem

Mark Crossley (on loan from Fulham)
2 DF Lee Bullen
3 DF Peter Gilbert
4 MF Kenny Lunt
5 DF Graham Coughlan
6 MF Glenn Whelan
7 MF Marcus Tudgay
8 MF Burton O'Brien
9 FW Steve MacLean
10 FW Deon Burton
11 MF Chris Brunt
12 MF Steve Adams
14 DF John Hills
15 MF Wade Small
16 DF Richard Wood
18 FW Leon Clarke

they all look shit to me but an owl would claim them like you claim your losses

sold nearly all of them that would get a fee within 3 seasons and ended up in league one again
to say we are the only club that sells its assetts is wide of the mark

I never said we are the only one but that we do it more than most. I think Only Brunt and Whelan from that lot went to teams in higher leagues.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

To be honest I dont see any players in blue and white as a star
but their fans had high opinions of players we think are shit , ,
you pooh pooh Beevers but a lot liked him like we liked Blackman

Id say 99 per cent of wednesday players were crap but they sold even what to them were good players
including Alan Quinn , forget who he went to

ask a wednesday fan to rate your list of lost stars and they probably laugh in your face saying they were all shit

That’s a total kop out. Look at where the players went and for what fees. Beevers they hung onto when he was highly rated. Then when his career stalled and he fell out of favour, they moved him on. Like us with Scougall for example. Players going to higher league clubs for fees whilst under contract is entirely different to the likes of Mark Crossley and Lee Bullen becoming too old to play football.


Of that team you listed, Whelan and Brunt were sold on to bigger and better things. Tudgay bobbed around the championship which is where they were. Pigs pretending players were good then releasing them when they realised they weren't is not nearly the same as higher placed teams poaching your best performing players meaning you've got to start again. So again, if you'd like to list the 22 players they sold over the relevant period that were bought by higher placed teams (or more if we add in Quinn, Killgallon etc.) then I'll gladly re-consider my position. If not, you should probably accept that you are talking utter bollocks.

 

[blade too long]

I never said we are the only one but that we do it more than most. I think Only Brunt and Whelan from that lot went to teams in higher leagues.

buts thats the point , do we
yes we feel we only let go our best players
but which clubs come after any clubs worst players
think about it .clubs wont come after any clubs crap will they

 

[blade too long]

That’s a total kop out. Look at where the players went and for what fees. Beevers they hung onto when he was highly rated. Then when his career stalled and he fell out of favour, they moved him on. Like us with Scougall for example. Players going to higher league clubs for fees whilst under contract is entirely different to the likes of Mark Crossley and Lee Bullen becoming too old to play football.


Of that team you listed, Whelan and Brunt were sold on to bigger and better things. Tudgay bobbed around the championship which is where they were. Pigs pretending players were good then releasing them when they realised they weren't is not nearly the same as higher placed teams poaching your best performing players meaning you've got to start again. So again, if you'd like to list the 22 players they sold over the relevant period that were bought by higher placed teams (or more if we add in Quinn, Killgallon etc.) then I'll gladly re-consider my position. If not, you should probably accept that you are talking utter bollocks.

its not me saying that us selling on 22 good players you ñisted over 16 years is too much , despite 2 relegations

 

[1danewhitehouse]

buts thats the point , do we

Yes. Very much so. Your attempt to compare us to the pigs showed that we sell far more of our good players.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

its not me saying that us selling on 22 good players you ñisted over 16 years is too much , despite 2 relegations

No, you're denying it for some reason even though most right minded folk can see that it has absolutely been a problem for us and a large contributory factor in that 2nd relegation and the failure to get promoted since.

 

[blade too long]

Yes. Very much so. Your attempt to compare us to the pigs showed that we sell far more of our good players.

no it didnt
on the list you added Blackman for starters who was anonymous for the first 3 seasons after he left us, and every club that suffered 2 relegations this last 16 years have sold at least as many as we have

Look at the mess that is Bolton, they have a list as long as ours of sales in the last 5 seasons
Blackpool , had to borrow players to field a team, both in the prem with decent players , now all gone
Coventry , had to sell their entire team to stay afloat

 

[1danewhitehouse]

no it didnt
on the list you added Blackman for starters who was anonymous for the first 3 seasons after he left us, and every club that suffered 2 relegations this last 16 years have sold at least as many as we have

Look at the mess that is Bolton, they have a list as long as ours of sales in the last 5 seasons
Blackpool , had to borrow players to field a team, both in the prem with decent players , now all gone
Coventry , had to sell their entire team to stay afloat

You're talking about teams in dire financial straights one of which has the one of the most vilified charimen in history. We are allegedly a team with "game-changing" investment and "no need to sell our best young players".

You're talking absolute bollocks about Blackman. He was our top scorer. Selling him de-railed our season. He was sold to a Premier League team. In the 3 years he spent at Reading he managed 113 appearances scoring 22 goals in the top 2 divisions and was sold on for a profit (approximately 250% of what they paid for him).



ps. Just checked what you said re Bolton. Since relegation, the only player they've sold for over a million (according to Wiki) is Tim Reame. They've released plenty of high earners at the end of their contracts who hadn't performed but that's hardly the same thing. Poor recruitment has let them down. No selling off of top talent there since Cahill in Jan 2012 and look what happened to them that summer.


Coventry are probably the most comparable to us in terms of selling off top talent every season and funnily enough, they are also languishing in this shit league despite being a decent sized club. It's done wonders for them as well hasn't it?