Warnock

[grafikhaus]

I am not going to sit here and say he was a saint and a football genius, nor am I going to say he was an abject failure and a terrible manager.

He had a good stint at the Lane, and oversaw some of the best nights/games as a blade. He gave us some fantastic cup runs and delivered a promotion to the promised land. He also failed to keep us there!

This is a perennial failing in football and Warnock (both with United & QPR) is a prime example. Call it 'horses for courses', 'the Peter Principle' or whatever, Warnock has an excellent track record of steering lower-league to success but none whatsoever at the highest level. It should never have come to that situation. When we (and especially QPR) first employed him, it should have been written into his contract that the target was promotion to the PL and, having achieved that, 'Adieu and here's £X straight into your bank account while we look for someone with a proven track record higher than yours.'

A few years ago I was a regional sales manager and the firm hired a National sales manager. I was totally fucked off and left. With the passing of time, I realised that they'd made the right decision and I wouldn't have been up to the job. The same logic should apply to football.

 

[alcoblade]

This is a perennial failing in football and Warnock (both with United & QPR) is a prime example. Call it 'horses for courses', 'the Peter Principle' or whatever, Warnock has an excellent track record of steering lower-league to success but none whatsoever at the highest level. It should never have come to that situation. When we (and especially QPR) first employed him, it should have been written into his contract that the target was promotion to the PL and, having achieved that, 'Adieu and here's £X straight into your bank account while we look for someone with a proven track record higher than yours.'

A few years ago I was a regional sales manager and the firm hired a National sales manager. I was totally fucked off and left. With the passing of time, I realised that they'd made the right decision and I wouldn't have been up to the job. The same logic should apply to football.

Good post.

I'm not sure it can conclusively be said that he can't manage in the top flight.

Managers like Warnock get clubs promoted to the top flight against the odds, generally. With us, our wage bill was tiny in comparison to the average (I accept he spent some money badly). QPR weren't even in the relegation zone when he was sacked. Given the tiny sample size, it's no real shock that he hasn't set the world alight in the few opportunities that existed.

The reality is he's not polished enough to ever be given the opportunity at a really rich established club, so we will never know for sure.

All of it feels a bit irrelevant now, to a mid range third division team.

UTB

 

[Darren]

Good post.

I'm not sure it can conclusively be said that he can't manage in the top flight.

Managers like Warnock get clubs promoted to the top flight against the odds, generally. With us, our wage bill was tiny I'm comparison to the average (I accept he spent some money badly). QPR weren't even in the relegation zone when he was sacked. Given the tiny sample size, it's no real shock that he hasn't set the world alight in the few opportunities that existed.

The reality is he's not polished enough to ever be given the opportunity at a really rich established club, so we will never know for sure.

All of it feels a bit irrelevant now, to a mid range third division team.

UTB

There's some stats somewhere that show that, as a percentage of turnover, the money given to Warnock in the PL was below that of the previous season, whilst under the clown Robson the following season, it went through the roof. Given the extremely narrow margin by which we were relegated, I would argue that if Warnock had been given even half the money Robson was given we would have stayed up.

 

[JJ Sefton]

There's some stats somewhere that show that, as a percentage of turnover, the money given to Warnock in the PL was below that of the previous season, whilst under the clown Robson the following season, it went through the roof. Given the extremely narrow margin by which we were relegated, I would argue that if Warnock had been given even half the money Robson was given we would have stayed up.

And what was Warnock's previous top flight experience? Getting Notts County relegated after one season? Who on earth would have kept them up?!

 

[judge]

I had hoped that adkins would be like an warnock a basset and even perhaps a kendall in that he could come in and have an immediate impact
Maybe not in results but in a palpable sea change ,either by making shit players play better or lazy players try harder

Havent really seen any evidence of this but i cant help but feel the absolotely spineless squad of wankers aside that the set up behind the scenes at the lane isnt conducive to a strong manager and im not sure the afore mentioned trio would have been able to do much either

 

[Darren]

And what was Warnock's previous top flight experience? Getting Notts County relegated after one season? Who on earth would have kept them up?!

Indeed. Big Mistake no.2 was then sacking Warnock after relegation. What McCabe should have said is this

"That was bloody bad luck Neil. No-one thought we would get 38 points pre season and but for that bastard Tevez, that would have been good enough. You can have another year's contract and your remit is to get us straight back up. Here's a number of bags of money (I have realised you can't do the PL on the cheap) and I will see you for the celebration next May".

Given that the poor man's Warnock got us playing automatic promotion form when he was appointed, I have little doubt the blessed Neil would have done the job.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

There's some stats somewhere that show that, as a percentage of turnover, the money given to Warnock in the PL was below that of the previous season, whilst under the clown Robson the following season, it went through the roof. Given the extremely narrow margin by which we were relegated, I would argue that if Warnock had been given even half the money Robson was given we would have stayed up.

Agreed. Robson was allowed to increase the wage bill by a further £2.6M.
That equates to two Premiership quality players earning £25K a week each.
Over the course of the season, would that have gained us the one extra goal and point we needed to stay up? I think so.
It would still only have been 64% of our wages on turnover as opposed to the 77% that Robson was brought in to squander.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Indeed. Big Mistake no.2 was then sacking Warnock after relegation. What McCabe should have said is this

"That was bloody bad luck Neil. No-one thought we would get 38 points pre season and but for that bastard Tevez, that would have been good enough. You can have another year's contract and your remit is to get us straight back up. Here's a number of bags of money (I have realised you can't do the PL on the cheap) and I will see you for the celebration next May".

Given that the poor man's Warnock got us playing automatic promotion form when he was appointed, I have little doubt the blessed Neil would have done the job.

Yes. Warnock got us automatic promotion with a wage bill of £15.2M. He would certainly have had a great chance with a £25M wage bill.

 

[Paqamaq]

Indeed. Big Mistake no.2 was then sacking Warnock after relegation. What McCabe should have said is this

"That was bloody bad luck Neil. No-one thought we would get 38 points pre season and but for that bastard Tevez, that would have been good enough. You can have another year's contract and your remit is to get us straight back up. Here's a number of bags of money (I have realised you can't do the PL on the cheap) and I will see you for the celebration next May".

Given that the poor man's Warnock got us playing automatic promotion form when he was appointed, I have little doubt the blessed Neil would have done the job.

Hear hear.

 

[Darren]

View attachment 14765

Agreed. Robson was allowed to increase the wage bill by a further £2.6M.
That equates to two Premiership quality players earning £25K a week each.
Over the course of the season, would that have gained us the one extra goal and point we needed to stay up? I think so.
It would still only have been 64% of our wages on turnover as opposed to the 77% that Robson was brought in to squander.

Bloody hell, I didn't realised wages to turnover ratio dropped so massively in the PL! In that season turnover increased by 158% and wages by only 47%!

 

[Worksop II]

Bloody hell, I didn't realised wages to turnover ratio dropped so massively in the PL! In that season turnover increased by 158% and wages by only 47%!

I wonder where the difference between Turnover and Wages went, between 2006 - 2010, seems a fair old Wedge

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Bloody hell, I didn't realised wages to turnover ratio dropped so massively in the PL! In that season turnover increased by 158% and wages by only 47%!

I've said it before but when you go up to The Premier League, you should expect relegation and implement a 3 year plan to cope with it.
E.g. Our average revenue for those 3 seasons was £34.47M which would have allowed us a £26M per year wage bill at 75% of our turnover.
That's sustainable for those 3 years but no longer.

So you keep the core of the promotion side together and sign a handful of Premiership-quality players on 3 year contracts.
If you get relegated, you keep the squad together and should have sufficient quality to bounce straight back.
If you don't bounce straight back, you can offload the high earners and the wage bill reverts to a sustainable Championship level.

If you manage to stay up, you get another massive cash boost and start again with a new 3 year plan on increased turnover and wages.
At no point would the club's finances be put at risk and it gives you the best possible chance of becoming an established Premier League Club.
I hope we put something like that into practice IF and WHEN we ever the get the chance again.

 

[LoughboroBlade]

View attachment 14765

Agreed. Robson was allowed to increase the wage bill by a further £2.6M.
That equates to two Premiership quality players earning £25K a week each.
Over the course of the season, would that have gained us the one extra goal and point we needed to stay up? I think so.
It would still only have been 64% of our wages on turnover as opposed to the 77% that Robson was brought in to squander.

Just as staggering looking at that is the fact that at relegation to League 1 we were paying that collection of spineless losers more than we paid the magnificent heroes that got us promoted to the Premier League.

 

[BushBlade]

There's some stats somewhere that show that, as a percentage of turnover, the money given to Warnock in the PL was below that of the previous season, whilst under the clown Robson the following season, it went through the roof. Given the extremely narrow margin by which we were relegated, I would argue that if Warnock had been given even half the money Robson was given we would have stayed up.

You wouldn't be arguing with me. I absolutely agree. And this was in a time where more promoted clubs failed to stay up than succeeded.
And if the players had been brought in on three year contracts when we went up, their contracts would have expired as we ran out of parachute payments, not the year after so if we had have still gone down we wouldn't have been as crippled financially as we were by gambling on an instant return.

Edit: sorry should have read Sothall's post before I replied.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I wonder where the difference between Turnover and Wages went, between 2006 - 2010, seems a fair old Wedge

Good question. £32.2M difference between turnover and wages. Where did it go?
The usual response is "wages" but not in this case. Some on ground improvements. Some on The Academy. Some on nett transfers?
What about the rest? The Hotel? China?

 

[BushBlade]

Good question. £32.2M difference between turnover and wages. Where did it go?
The usual response is "wages" but not in this case. Some on ground improvements. Some on The Academy. Some on nett transfers?
What about the rest? The Hotel? China?

Blades Real Estate Ltd or whatever it was called?

 

[Bladesway]

Made a huge mess of giving us our most succesful and enjoyable period since the titanic was still afloat

So what did Dave Bassett do then?

 

[Worksop II]

Good question. £32.2M difference between turnover and wages. Where did it go?
The usual response is "wages" but not in this case. Some on ground improvements. Some on The Academy. Some on nett transfers?
What about the rest? The Hotel? China?

The Tevez money also landed from 2009 onwards, in £5 million pound lumps / year, I think that went to pay off loans somewhere .............

 

[Bladesway]

Attitudes like this are why United won't get anywhere. People desperate to pull down those who were actually successful. It beggars belief.

Not going to totally nuke your initial point but this is plain wrong. Our constant wanting to go back to the past is one of the biggest reasons we aren't successful. "He isn't as good as Warnock so sack him" we seem to say to the bloke who has been in charge 6 months. Then people wonder why there is so much pressure at our club?

I'm never going to forget the great things Warnock helped bring us (as part of a team remember) but also I am pragmatic enough to know he had his time and it should be remembered for what it was.

 

[BushBlade]

Not going to totally nuke your initial point but this is plain wrong. Our constant wanting to go back to the past is one of the biggest reasons we aren't successful. "He isn't as good as Warnock so sack him" we seem to say to the bloke who has been in charge 6 months. Then people wonder why there is so much pressure at our club?

I'm never going to forget the great things Warnock helped bring us (as part of a team remember) but also I am pragmatic enough to know he had his time and it should be remembered for what it was.

There's a big difference between respecting what a former manager has done and wanting him back.

But there are those who seem to think the two are inseparable; Bassett suffered from not being John Harris and Warnock suffered from not being Bassett.

 

[alcoblade]

The Tevez money also landed from 2009 onwards, in £5 million pound lumps / year, I think that went to pay off loans somewhere .............

That would be in the turnover though.

UTB

 

[Deaneandagana]

Not going to totally nuke your initial point but this is plain wrong. Our constant wanting to go back to the past is one of the biggest reasons we aren't successful. "He isn't as good as Warnock so sack him" we seem to say to the bloke who has been in charge 6 months. Then people wonder why there is so much pressure at our club?

I'm never going to forget the great things Warnock helped bring us (as part of a team remember) but also I am pragmatic enough to know he had his time and it should be remembered for what it was.

I think introspection is a large part of a Blades DNA, supporting a club which hasn't won anything meaningful for 90 years has meant that we live on past glories, constantly harping back to the glory days - Currie & Woodward, Badger & Hemsley even Deane & Agana! The lionisation of these heroes of yesteryear are pretty much all we have to cling onto.

We have had the rug pulled from under us too many times, just when we think the club has emerged from its slumbers & success appears as a faint mirage on the horizon, we see our prize assets depart, Currie, Deane, Deane & Fjortoft (same day), Beattie, 2 Kyles etc etc etc.

Ours is a club over which those responsible for its stewardship trade on the goodwill of its fans, the taking of liberties is done in the full knowledge that I / You / We / Us will be back next week and all will be forgotten and its business as usual.

We see a myriad of Directors, club officials, special advisors, managers, coaches, interim managers, interim coaches, players and loan players come and go and with each appointment the spectres of hope, success and glory are refuelled, but alas the resultant end product remains the same.

We, the fans crave success, 20000 of us every 2nd week crave success, we crave of belonging to that elite group of clubs who feast at the top table and who have their gold executive passes renewed each year for their membership to MOTD & Sky Sports. These clubs are no bigger or better than ours - except for the obvious, their fans are no better nor their stadiums or training facilities but they have sound management based on solid principles.

UTB

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Yesterday's men? What does that mean? Fergie was still pretty good when he retired. The best manager Newcastle have had in recent years apart from Keegan was Bobby Robson and top of the PL is Claudio Ranieri.

Neither Adkins nor Warnock show any signs of mental deterioration, both have managed in the PL within the last three years. Adkins isn't even old.

Yesterday's men? What does that mean?

Been a long fucking time since either was successful and it will be before either of them are again. Let them take some other fools gold.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

This is a perennial failing in football and Warnock (both with United & QPR) is a prime example. Call it 'horses for courses', 'the Peter Principle' or whatever, Warnock has an excellent track record of steering lower-league to success but none whatsoever at the highest level. It should never have come to that situation. When we (and especially QPR) first employed him, it should have been written into his contract that the target was promotion to the PL and, having achieved that, 'Adieu and here's £X straight into your bank account while we look for someone with a proven track record higher than yours.'

A few years ago I was a regional sales manager and the firm hired a National sales manager. I was totally fucked off and left. With the passing of time, I realised that they'd made the right decision and I wouldn't have been up to the job. The same logic should apply to football.

Totally agree, a £400K bonus in Warnocks back pocket for getting promotion would have been the best £400K spent as he was seen on his way.

He was at that time the best second division manager around. Prem? You're having a laff.

 

[Grecian2000]

I had hoped that adkins would be like an warnock a basset and even perhaps a kendall in that he could come in and have an immediate impact
Maybe not in results but in a palpable sea change ,either by making shit players play better or lazy players try harder

Havent really seen any evidence of this but i cant help but feel the absolotely spineless squad of wankers aside that the set up behind the scenes at the lane isnt conducive to a strong manager and im not sure the afore mentioned trio would have been able to do much either

They wouldn't have been given a chance NOW.

Warnock fought the relegation battle his first half season and finished 16th.
His first FULL season he went to 10th, the next season we went to 13th - That step backwards would have been curtains for him in the current climate. Silly Jim and his Twatter cronies would have imploded.

Kendall fought off relegation his first half season and finished 9th.
The next season he finished 5th and lost in the play-offs - ask Clough what happens now in that scenario (7th to 5th, play off loss).

Bassett failed to win the relegation battle - ask Adams what happens now in those circumstances.

 

[Superblades]

Indeed. Big Mistake no.2 was then sacking Warnock after relegation. What McCabe should have said is this

"That was bloody bad luck Neil. No-one thought we would get 38 points pre season and but for that bastard Tevez, that would have been good enough. You can have another year's contract and your remit is to get us straight back up. Here's a number of bags of money (I have realised you can't do the PL on the cheap) and I will see you for the celebration next May".

Given that the poor man's Warnock got us playing automatic promotion form when he was appointed, I have little doubt the blessed Neil would have done the job.

Great post! Pretty much my thoughts aswell. I reckon McCabe realises that was probably his biggest mistake.

 

[Darren]

They wouldn't have been given a chance NOW.

Warnock fought the relegation battle his first half season and finished 16th.
His first FULL season he went to 10th, the next season we went to 13th - That step backwards would have been curtains for him in the current climate. Silly Jim and his Twatter cronies would have imploded.

Kendall fought off relegation his first half season and finished 9th.
The next season he finished 5th and lost in the play-offs - ask Clough what happens now in that scenario (7th to 5th, play off loss).

Bassett failed to win the relegation battle - ask Adams what happens now in those circumstances.

A crucial difference though is that play off failure and upper mid table in the second tier is pretty reasonable given United's resources and the competition. The same achievement in the third tier most definitely is not.

 

[derryblade]

They wouldn't have been given a chance NOW.

Warnock fought the relegation battle his first half season and finished 16th.
His first FULL season he went to 10th, the next season we went to 13th - That step backwards would have been curtains for him in the current climate. Silly Jim and his Twatter cronies would have imploded.

Kendall fought off relegation his first half season and finished 9th.
The next season he finished 5th and lost in the play-offs - ask Clough what happens now in that scenario (7th to 5th, play off loss).

Bassett failed to win the relegation battle - ask Adams what happens now in those circumstances.

Personally I would accept bobbing about the Championship, think it's more palatable than the current scenario. Some supporters weren't content even then so its not a new phenomenon IMO

 

[super_pig]

They wouldn't have been given a chance NOW.

Warnock fought the relegation battle his first half season and finished 16th.
His first FULL season he went to 10th, the next season we went to 13th - That step backwards would have been curtains for him in the current climate. Silly Jim and his Twatter cronies would have imploded.

Kendall fought off relegation his first half season and finished 9th.
The next season he finished 5th and lost in the play-offs - ask Clough what happens now in that scenario (7th to 5th, play off loss).

Bassett failed to win the relegation battle - ask Adams what happens now in those circumstances.

have to reply to this.. you have missed something.. all the other 'failures' that you quote were in the championship. NOT division one
personally i disliked Warnock because everytime he came on tv he made me cringe.. HOWEVER.. he did one thing that only bassett and harris have done before and i'm not talking about success per se.. he made us proud of the shirt. he got it.
i don't care if we fucking lose or whatever. but we have to go down fighting. that is why i dislike this current squad, most of them at least . they don't give a shit and have no pride in the shirt at all
i was pleased Adams got sent off. i thought 'it's about fucking time.. at least someone isn't taking shit off anyone'

 

[Grappler]

Warnock divides opinion, always has, always will, but what you can't take away from him is seven promotions, including a couple to the top flight.