Walker and Naughton

[Flatulent_Bob]

Scarialy I am with len on this one. The difference between King and Jags was that King could play games he just couldn't train and Capello took a calculated risk. Jags had just returned from a very serious injury and probably wasn't up to speed. I do believe that if KN or KW had gone to Everton and played first team football they would certainly be on the discussion table to SA in the summer. They are not going to develop playing reserve team football at Spurs. There is also a huge step up from Championship to Premiership and I think that it is pure guesswork to say t hat they would have made this step at their young age. Walker does seem to have done well when he has played for Spurs though I think he has to work a lot more on the defensive side as the errors are still there for all to see.

If you agree that they should of turned down Spurs for Everton then you also have to say that finance was a factor in the decision over football. Spurs had just signed Hutton for a lot of money and had Assou-Ekotto and Vedran Ćorluka already at the club. Whereas at Everton you only have to dislodge Tony Hibbert.

I also believe they should of gone to Everton for footballing reasons but we know they don't pay the same levels as Spurs. However if you believe this you cannot hold onto the belief that they were happy to stay at United and weren't looking for these deals via their agents.

 

[super_pig]

>Dumbest thing they ever did was go to Spurs instead of Everton
have it on highest authority that naughton wanted to go to everton but was pretty much forced by united to join spurs.. (hence why he won't come here on loan) shame for him as i reckon he'd have made the WC squad at everton.. easily.. glenn johnson is a winger playing at right back.. and it shows

 

[SteelCity Blade]

If you agree that they should of turned down Spurs for Everton then you also have to say that finance was a factor in the decision over football. Spurs had just signed Hutton for a lot of money and had Assou-Ekotto and Vedran Ćorluka already at the club. Whereas at Everton you only have to dislodge Tony Hibbert.

I also believe they should of gone to Everton for footballing reasons but we know they don't pay the same levels as Spurs. However if you believe this you cannot hold onto the belief that they were happy to stay at United and weren't looking for these deals via their agents.

I said a similar thing at the time. Particularly with Kyle Naughton who would have slotted straight in at right back for Everton.....he would have been first choice instantly. Now Kyle Walker is a bit different. He is younger than Kyle I so could have taken the view that a few reserve games and loans whilst at Spurs would do him no harm.

Naughton definately should have gone to Everton though. I cant imagine the difference in salary would have been that big. We all know that Spurs are better off than Everton but I cant imagine Spurs would blow Everton out of the market completely for a player of little experience.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I said a similar thing at the time. Particularly with Kyle Naughton who would have slotted straight in at right back for Everton.....he would have been first choice instantly. Now Kyle Walker is a bit different. He is younger than Kyle I so could have taken the view that a few reserve games and loans whilst at Spurs would do him no harm.

Naughton definately should have gone to Everton though. I cant imagine the difference in salary would have been that big. We all know that Spurs are better off than Everton but I cant imagine Spurs would blow Everton out of the market completely for a player of little experience.

Old ground but I think the key was that Spurs were prepared to pay more, but only for the pair. In an ideal situation, given that Kyle N was likely to go, he should have gone to Everton and we could have kept Kyle W but £8M up front, rising to a potential £10M for two relative unknowns with little experience was never going to be something we were going to turn down.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Old ground but I think the key was that Spurs were prepared to pay more, but only for the pair. In an ideal situation, given that Kyle N was likely to go, he should have gone to Everton and we could have kept Kyle W but £8M up front, rising to a potential £10M for two relative unknowns with little experience was never going to be something we were going to turn down.

Agree. I said in another thread that I cant see how the club had any choice. I would have taken the money as well.

 

[Guesty]

A line has been firmly drawn under both of these players. They're not ours anymore! We sold them for a lot of money (remember were skint) on the back of a season from one player and barely a quarter of a season from another. Whether we can afford to loan these players back doesnt matter. we dont need them, and we have no right to say they should come to us.

Precisely. Our sense of entitlement towards these players we sold is baffling.

 

[Robbie]

The problem is actually the opposite. Even though teams with Champions League ambitions wanted to sign them, some Blades still believe they can't be that good because we produced them.

Oh, I have no doubt that Walker will go on to great things.
Similarly, I think Jags will break into a top 4 team.
Naughton will do well with top 6 teams.

But they (the Kyles) would not have been on no plane (to quote Mr T) to SA.

As for Jags, it was and is well known that Capello liked Jags and only his injury and lack of football held him back last year.

Yet King who couldn't even train was selected.
For me, Jags should have gone. But clearly he isn't as highly rated by Cappello as you believe.

They would have been expensive and we didn't need them

This is my view, I'd like them here, but with the expense, and now the cover we have. They would be a luxury only.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

Yet King who couldn't even train was selected.
For me, Jags should have gone. But clearly he isn't as highly rated by Cappello as you believe.

Surely Capello does rate Jags highly as he was first choice after Terry & Rio were injured. Funny also that Jags is rated higher than Lescott in the England pecking order. I think Everton laughed al the way to the bank when they sold Lescott to city but kept Jags

 

[Robbie]

Surely Capello does rate Jags highly as he was first choice after Terry & Rio were injured.

No, he was first choice after Ferdinand, Terry, King.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

No, he was first choice after Ferdinand, Terry, King.

when the provisional squad was announced, he was also behind Dawson, Upson and Carragher although people seem to be forgetting that he only played a dozen or so games last season.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

No, he was first choice after Ferdinand, Terry, King.

I would say that being 4th on the list of centre halves in England, when 2 are playing each game is rated pretty highly. I doubt whether King will ever play for England again and it will be interesting to see if Rio and Terry just walk back in to the team the next game. I would say that Jags is now #3

 

[Guesty]

when the provisional squad was announced, he was also behind Dawson, Upson and Carragher although people seem to be forgetting that he only played a dozen or so games last season.

Yep, I would have said that the main factor in Jags not being in the squad was that he missed most of the season.

 

[norfolkblade]

I would say that being 4th on the list of centre halves in England, when 2 are playing each game is rated pretty highly. I doubt whether King will ever play for England again and it will be interesting to see if Rio and Terry just walk back in to the team the next game. I would say that Jags is now #3

Rio and Terry are past it now, time for some new blood. If we are to have this "revoultion" then Jags and Dawson should be the centre back pairing, with fat Frank being dropped as well.

 

[Flatulent_Bob]

Jags was definately rated behind Dawson and Upson prior to the world cup, I think their performances there and since might of moved him up.

 

[Robbie]

I would say that being 4th on the list of centre halves in England,when 2 are playing each game is rated pretty highly

That's if you deem that he is in front of Dawson and Carragher. Which is hard to evaluate.

 

[raul]

As I have yet to annouce my unavailability for Fabby's next squad, even I'm in front of Carragher.:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[super_pig]

capello made a few peculiar decisions at the WC.. i don't suppose we'll ever find out why.. jags was the obvious one.. but then why didnt adam johnson go instead of a pleyer (SWP) who he was keeping out of the team at MC.. upson and green was laughable.. lets pick a couple of players from the team with the worse defensive record.. not a good start in anyones estimation.. i'm not even starting on carragher..
and onto the most bizarre selection ever.. why on earth did SVE pick walcott?

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Jagielka played in Everton's last 11 league games, almost a third of the season. So I don't buy the suggestion that Capello overlooked him because he wasn't fully fit. Barry and King both went despite their well-documented injury problems.

I think Capello made a mistake pure and simply by choosing several slow Centre-backs ahead of Jags in Carragher, King and Upson. Hopefully Jags will now stay in the team even if Terry and Ferdinand both deign to make themselves available. (Funny how Terry was fit enough to play for Chelsea but not for England five days earlier).

 

[lenners]

Old ground but I think the key was that Spurs were prepared to pay more, but only for the pair. In an ideal situation, given that Kyle N was likely to go, he should have gone to Everton and we could have kept Kyle W but £8M up front, rising to a potential £10M for two relative unknowns with little experience was never going to be something we were going to turn down.

Should never have come to that. A club that had received £20m from Tevez and had £3m to blow on Evans should have been thinking much more long term with Walker.
Goes back to the shocking financial mismanagement of the club.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

Should never have come to that. A club that had received £20m from Tevez and had £3m to blow on Evans should have been thinking much more long term with Walker.
Goes back to the shocking financial mismanagement of the club.

OK, I'll bite. We hadn't had £20M from Tevez, we didn't spend £3M on Evans and had lost the parachute payments.

 

[Nick Jansky]

Goes back to the shocking financial mismanagement of the club.

It does, but its happened, its not going to unhappen, and dwelling on it does nobody any good. Time to move on, I think.

 

[lenners]

OK, I'll bite. We hadn't had £20M from Tevez, we didn't spend £3M on Evans and had lost the parachute payments.

The case was won in September 2008, I don't think we had sold Walker and Naughton by then.
We have spent the best part of £3m on Evans and you know that.
The Tevez money exceeded at least one year's parachute payments.

 

[lenners]

It does, but its happened, its not going to unhappen, and dwelling on it does nobody any good. Time to move on, I think.

I guess we'll see from this year's accounts whether it's still happening or not.

 

[beechblade]

The case was won in September 2008, I don't think we had sold Walker and Naughton by then.
We have spent the best part of £3m on Evans and you know that.
The Tevez money exceeded at least one year's parachute payments.

Again they said that money wasn't going into the squad.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

The case was won in September 2008, I don't think we had sold Walker and Naughton by then.
We have spent the best part of £3m on Evans and you know that.
The Tevez money exceeded at least one year's parachute payments.

C'mon Len, you're slipping. The final ruling was March 2009 and even then the final details of the payments hadn't been agreed. As I recall, payments are split over 5 or 6 years. We don't need to dig up the Evans debate, safe to say the errors in your 'facts' have been pointed out numerous times.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

It does, but its happened, its not going to unhappen, and dwelling on it does nobody any good. Time to move on, I think.

Naughton hasn't moved to Portsmouth yet. Given that he's a Sheffield lad and a Blade it's perfectly reasonable to ask why he would choose to join bottom of the table Pompey rather than us, IF we made a late move to hijack the deal.

For those who are saying we don't need him, I would suggest that he'd be a far better option than either Montgomery and Ertl in our current favoured 4-3-3 system. He would give us more pace and skill going forward while losing nothing in terms of energy and defensive ability. Not to mention the fact he's an half-decent right or left back!

He would be a brilliant addition to the squad and it's surely high time we took advantage of the "special relationship" that United assured us was part of the reason we sold our best young prospects to Spurs.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

KN is a right back/wing back he would not be suited to playing in Ertl's or Mornty's position. It is a completely different game.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

KN is a right back/wing back he would not be suited to playing in Ertl's or Mornty's position. It is a completely different game.

If Monty and Ertl were playing as holding midfielders, I would agree with you. But against Preston and Derby, Britton has been playing just in front of the back four. The job of the other two midfielders is to get up and down the pitch, winning tackles and supporting the forwards where possible. Who's more likely to create chances against a packed defence in a home match? Who would you rather have on the ball in the final third? Would Naughton have screwed his shot horribly wide as Ertl did on Saturday?

 

[lenners]

C'mon Len, you're slipping. The final ruling was March 2009 and even then the final details of the payments hadn't been agreed. As I recall, payments are split over 5 or 6 years. We don't need to dig up the Evans debate, safe to say the errors in your 'facts' have been pointed out numerous times.

No, the ruling was in September and we knew then we were in the money, just a case of how much.
We definitely knew how much we were getting before we sold Naughton and Walker.
Payments are already bagged by McCabe.
The bigger picture remains how we could possibly have ended up in such a mess with such huge amounts coming into the club.
As for Evans, the fee remains £3m, most of which has been paid - despite Bob's bizarre notion that because this was staged like every other transfer this meant we hadn't actually paid that amount.
On which basis, we won't have received £8m for Walker and Naughton either.

 

[CopenhagenBlade]

If Monty and Ertl were playing as holding midfielders, I would agree with you. But against Preston and Derby, Britton has been playing just in front of the back four. The job of the other two midfielders is to get up and down the pitch, winning tackles and supporting the forwards where possible. Who's more likely to create chances against a packed defence in a home match? Who would you rather have on the ball in the final third? Would Naughton have screwed his shot horribly wide as Ertl did on Saturday?

S_B. I know where you are coming from but I think that it is easy to say that because a player is good in one position he will be good in another. eg Jags, premiership defender, div 1 midfielder. KN playing right back is used to receiving the ball with everybody in front of him. Playing center mid menas that he will have tackles coming in from all directions he will quite often have his back to play and think and react quicker. I am not saying that he can't do this better than Monty or Ertl I just think that it isn't so clear cut.