Value for money has its limits

[Champagneblade]

Wilder has unquestionably done a great job in terms of style, tactics and recruitment.

He's largely done this through self finance as well.

For every Clarke, Moore and Carruthers we've paid money for, there's been an Adams, Ramsdale or Calvert-Lewin paying for the deal many times over more than helping to finance the signing on fees of other joiners.

This year's DCL has come in the guise of Maguire's 16.5m move to Leicester and Walker's potential eventual 54m deal. Worst case, allowing for add-ons yet to be realised, 900k better off for Harry (above 3m and 10% of 4.5m incentives not included) and 4.2m from Walker's up front fee of 4.5m minus the 3m we originally received for him.

At worst 5.1m, potentially due another 1.35m over time.

This could also be supplemented by the tipped departure of Hansen this week.

Of a 5.3m kitty Wilder has spent in the region of 1.7m.

To me, that's insubstantial in relation to the task ahead.

He's done his picking up of useful frees like Stevens. He's brought in those from lower down we hope can step up. Only Stearman comes with any tried and tested stamp and he may well be injured.

Wilder's a great motivator but he can't be expected to turn the remaining games into 43 cup finals.

He needs help from the boardroom.

Now i know there are wages and running costs but in the Championship scheme of things we've spent nothing. We haven't even spent all of the unexpected windfall, nevermind the supposed Substantial investment we were led to believe McCabe and the Prince were to provide once we went up.

Chris will strive to not be ripped off but he needs some help now.

So I say this, Wilder has got you so far but now it's time to back him. Give him some proper money to invest or we'll be looking for a new manager as well as new players.

 

[S5Blade]

 

[Cerberus Blade]

I think the OP's point about backing Wilder with money is a good one actually - I didn't like it being served on a platter of doom though - I'd have preferred it with fries and maybe a nice bit of side salad.

I think Wilder also may need to re-adjust his value goggles. No criticism intended. But he's not managed at this level before and it's o.k. coming in to this club saying "the days of big spending are over" (which amazed me personally because I've never known us spend big in all the time I've been watching them), but not only will Wilder be aware that "little" clubs (or clubs that we once may have considered no bigger than us at least) are spending millions on players at this level, but he'll also be much more aware now of what that gets you - and how these type of players make a difference when up against the level of player we've bought so far.

And that's not to say I want us to spend millions on any one player. I really don't. But I do want us to raise the bar a bit and first of all, let's stop beating about the bush if we think players like Lenihan and Leonard are going to improve us - put an offer on the table and get them in this week. Especially Lenihan - because we need a good centre half urgently.

I'm not sure about Leonard tbh. I think we need proven Championship quality, or even Prem quality, in the midfield and some pace and power up top. If we can't afford to pay for that then let's borrow it for now.

 

[metalblade]

Wilder has unquestionably done a great job in terms of style, tactics and recruitment.

He's largely done this through self finance as well.

For every Clarke, Moore and Carruthers we've paid money for, there's been an Adams, Ramsdale or Calvert-Lewin paying for the deal many times over more than helping to finance the signing on fees of other joiners.

This year's DCL has come in the guise of Maguire's 16.5m move to Leicester and Walker's potential eventual 54m deal. Worst case, allowing for add-ons yet to be realised, 900k better off for Harry (above 3m and 10% of 4.5m incentives not included) and 4.2m from Walker's up front fee of 4.5m minus the 3m we originally received for him.

At worst 5.1m, potentially due another 1.35m over time.

This could also be supplemented by the tipped departure of Hansen this week.

Of a 5.3m kitty Wilder has spent in the region of 1.7m.

To me, that's insubstantial in relation to the task ahead.

He's done his picking up of useful frees like Stevens. He's brought in those from lower down we hope can step up. Only Stearman comes with any tried and tested stamp and he may well be injured.

Wilder's a great motivator but he can't be expected to turn the remaining games into 43 cup finals.

He needs help from the boardroom.

Now i know there are wages and running costs but in the Championship scheme of things we've spent nothing. We haven't even spent all of the unexpected windfall, nevermind the supposed Substantial investment we were led to believe McCabe and the Prince were to provide once we went up.

Chris will strive to not be ripped off but he needs some help now.

So I say this, Wilder has got you so far but now it's time to back him. Give him some proper money to invest or we'll be looking for a new manager as well as new players.

Haven't Moore, Sharp, Basham, Coutts, Carruthers, Baldock and a few more had experience it the Championship I don't think we are as naive as "only Stearman" I do agree though we need some players in and lucky for us we have got a windfall from the sales of Walker and Maguire. We have bids in for players says Wilder so we shall see what the next two weeks bring, as yet we have not seen the promised "substantial" investment from the owners should this not happen there will be quite a few disgruntled fans. I wait with interest to see if there has been a change at board level or is it still a case of same owd same owd with the unexpected windfall there really is no excuse not to invest.

 

[Blade56]

......saying "the days of big spending are over" (which amazed me personally because I've never known us spend big in all the time I've been watching them),

This

BT could be argued but what did he ever do for the club?

 

[Esablade]

Wilder has unquestionably done a great job in terms of style, tactics and recruitment.

He's largely done this through self finance as well.

For every Clarke, Moore and Carruthers we've paid money for, there's been an Adams, Ramsdale or Calvert-Lewin paying for the deal many times over more than helping to finance the signing on fees of other joiners.

This year's DCL has come in the guise of Maguire's 16.5m move to Leicester and Walker's potential eventual 54m deal. Worst case, allowing for add-ons yet to be realised, 900k better off for Harry (above 3m and 10% of 4.5m incentives not included) and 4.2m from Walker's up front fee of 4.5m minus the 3m we originally received for him.

At worst 5.1m, potentially due another 1.35m over time.

This could also be supplemented by the tipped departure of Hansen this week.

Of a 5.3m kitty Wilder has spent in the region of 1.7m.

To me, that's insubstantial in relation to the task ahead.

He's done his picking up of useful frees like Stevens. He's brought in those from lower down we hope can step up. Only Stearman comes with any tried and tested stamp and he may well be injured.

Wilder's a great motivator but he can't be expected to turn the remaining games into 43 cup finals.

He needs help from the boardroom.

Now i know there are wages and running costs but in the Championship scheme of things we've spent nothing. We haven't even spent all of the unexpected windfall, nevermind the supposed Substantial investment we were led to believe McCabe and the Prince were to provide once we went up.

Chris will strive to not be ripped off but he needs some help now.

So I say this, Wilder has got you so far but now it's time to back him. Give him some proper money to invest or we'll be looking for a new manager as well as new players.

It's 'the Blades Way' and obvious for all to see.
Still, get yer tin hat on and wait for the 'McCabe police'....

 

[Jan Age]

It's quite simple... the next 4 signings need to be proven championship quality and come in expecting too and seriously pushing to take a first 11 shirt immediately after signing.

Doesn't have to be a millions and millions transfer fee. But we may have to pay bigger wages.

If we are just going to buy squad players then I'd rather not bother.

At risk of being pulled to pieces I was under the impression the 'serious investment' would 'kick in' when we reached the championship.

I'm expecting good signings, anything else and the fans have a right to be annoyed.

 

[Deaneandagana]

The same spaceship that took you to the moon ain't going to take you to Mars.

Over to you Kev

 

[Norderner]

Don't know what the budget was before the maguire, walker sales, but in essence we should be able to add another £6.5m to it? God help us if we hadn't of got it, given the lack of fees paid, but, it's not the1st of September yet, so let's keep our powder dry till then?

 

[BushBlade]

We did good business last year after the season had started. Hopefully we can do the same again.

 

[Worksop II]

Don't know what the budget was before the maguire, walker sales, but in essence we should be able to add another £6.5m to it? God help us if we hadn't of got it, given the lack of fees paid, but, it's not the1st of September yet, so let's keep our powder dry till then?

Kev only has to dodge Chris Wilder for another couple of weeks ................................

 

[Shalalalafenoughty]

We did good business last year after the season had started. Hopefully we can do the same again.

Exactly. Wilder's response to last season's disastrous start was exemplary. Our start this season is nothing like as bad but he will have taken due note of the problems and he'll take appropriate action.

 

[Sean Thornton]

We did good business last year after the season had started. Hopefully we can do the same again.

Hopefully we will and Wilder will have some of the promised investment available with another tranche if needed in January. Obviously no one knows the effect of our new signings, promotion increases etc from last year will have on wages other than increasing it but with a solidarity payment, sell on money and increased gate receipts a turnover figure of £20m shouldn't be too far out and you'd expect at least break even on that. So in theory whilst it will increase wages and affect the bottom line, the owners cash input should get them an investment in players rather than just filling in a black hole again.

Let's wait and see, maybe the Corporal Jones amongst us can hold on for a couple of weeks as well. That as Sgt Wilson would say , would be rather nice.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

The current buzz phrase is 'proven Championship player'. It is much easier to say than to come up with serious suggestions of such players. Outstanding players are either not for sale, or going to Premiership clubs or clubs with parachute payments for ridiculous sums of money. Some proven players may be on their way down, struggling with injury, loss of form, be difficult characters, not fit in with our style of play, etc. Some have played some games for a good team, and may have been helped out by playing with good players. Some players have been very good for the weaker teams in the league. A successful transfer policy takes months of planning, skill, persistence, and a little luck. Suddenly deciding to buy a particular player in response to 2 defeats in August will not bring success. So we have to hope that some of the pieces in the jigsaw have long been in place (fingers crossed).
One irony is that one of the more achievable type of targets (good player in weak team, highly rated by fans last season) is already at the club, Brayford; I am not saying he is the answer, but if he were not already ours I am sure there would be a long thread about him in the rumours section saying we should bring him in.

 

[Paulus]

I think we can all agree that a squad continually needs strengthening if it is to prosper and continue to improve but even if, as stated in the OP, people think there is money about in reality we don't know the true state of the coffers. Fans always seem to focus on the headline fee in making judgements as to the level of investment but in reality the ongoing wage and bonus costs are at least as important. The problem Chris Wilder has is in finding the players that will make a difference without blowing to pieces the existing squad and wage structure. I think the relatively simple part is identifying a £3-£5M striker who would improve us but he would only come on a wage level that would potentially have a queue of existing players giving the club some very old fashioned looks. CW has clearly stated that he thinks it is crazy that one or two players in the team are earning multiples of the money that their team mates take home. It just might be the case that this is a deep seated view that CW has taken based on the experience he has had in the lower leagues and that this approach no matter how reasoned and common sense it appears just isn't the reality where we are now.

 

[YES Blade]

I think Wilder also may need to re-adjust his value goggles.

I don't buy into this at all, Wilder wants to win football matches, if that means paying over the odds for players he wants and needs then he will do it.

Put it this way, if McCabe and Prince found £100m to give Wilder, he would spend it without hesitation, he wouldn't be looking to get best value every single time. Unfortunately Wilder has a small budget by Championship standards and therefore has to get the most out of that, so he can't go blowing it all on one player.

 

[super_pig]

Wilder is evaluating what we have. his teams always start slow. if he needs to move he will do
and i'd add this.. he can't just dump all of the players that got us up last season.. he has to at least give them a chance (well he could do but it would be poor managment IMHO and morale would go through the floor)

 

[Champagneblade]

The current buzz phrase is 'proven Championship player'. It is much easier to say than to come up with serious suggestions of such players. Outstanding players are either not for sale, or going to Premiership clubs or clubs with parachute payments for ridiculous sums of money. Some proven players may be on their way down, struggling with injury, loss of form, be difficult characters, not fit in with our style of play, etc. Some have played some games for a good team, and may have been helped out by playing with good players. Some players have been very good for the weaker teams in the league. A successful transfer policy takes months of planning, skill, persistence, and a little luck. Suddenly deciding to buy a particular player in response to 2 defeats in August will not bring success. So we have to hope that some of the pieces in the jigsaw have long been in place (fingers crossed).
One irony is that one of the more achievable type of targets (good player in weak team, highly rated by fans last season) is already at the club, Brayford; I am not saying he is the answer, but if he were not already ours I am sure there would be a long thread about him in the rumours section saying we should bring him in.

As you say, if an experienced 29 year old with a large array of Championship experience who was a Championship team's player of the year or second player of the year three months ago come up on a free you'd snap their hands off.

Hopefully Stearman's injury will just be long enough to give Brayford a chance that he can take or not take so his ability to still do it can be concluded one way or another and/or it increases the urgency to get another first choice defender.

At present, O'Connell aside and perhaps Blackman, after just three games, most of the roster are looking like squad players who will undergo continuous rotation rather than 1st picks.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

I think we can all agree that a squad continually needs strengthening if it is to prosper and continue to improve but even if, as stated in the OP, people think there is money about in reality we don't know the true state of the coffers. Fans always seem to focus on the headline fee in making judgements as to the level of investment but in reality the ongoing wage and bonus costs are at least as important. The problem Chris Wilder has is in finding the players that will make a difference without blowing to pieces the existing squad and wage structure. I think the relatively simple part is identifying a £3-£5M striker who would improve us but he would only come on a wage level that would potentially have a queue of existing players giving the club some very old fashioned looks. CW has clearly stated that he thinks it is crazy that one or two players in the team are earning multiples of the money that their team mates take home. It just might be the case that this is a deep seated view that CW has taken based on the experience he has had in the lower leagues and that this approach no matter how reasoned and common sense it appears just isn't the reality where we are now.

Agree with nearly all of that. On your last point, Wilder might yet be proved right on the wage structure for a club of our size. We are not going to sign Messi or Ronaldo, and realistically, who is the player out there who we could buy and pay huge wages to, and who would contribute much more than any other player? Forastieri, anyone?

 

[Worksop II]

and who would contribute much more than any other player? Forastieri, anyone?

Oooooh, its going all Terry Curran ............ that worked out well

 

[Revolution]

Wilder has unquestionably done a great job in terms of style, tactics and recruitment.

He's largely done this through self finance as well.

For every Clarke, Moore and Carruthers we've paid money for, there's been an Adams, Ramsdale or Calvert-Lewin paying for the deal many times over more than helping to finance the signing on fees of other joiners.

This year's DCL has come in the guise of Maguire's 16.5m move to Leicester and Walker's potential eventual 54m deal. Worst case, allowing for add-ons yet to be realised, 900k better off for Harry (above 3m and 10% of 4.5m incentives not included) and 4.2m from Walker's up front fee of 4.5m minus the 3m we originally received for him.

At worst 5.1m, potentially due another 1.35m over time.

This could also be supplemented by the tipped departure of Hansen this week.

Of a 5.3m kitty Wilder has spent in the region of 1.7m.

To me, that's insubstantial in relation to the task ahead.

He's done his picking up of useful frees like Stevens. He's brought in those from lower down we hope can step up. Only Stearman comes with any tried and tested stamp and he may well be injured.

Wilder's a great motivator but he can't be expected to turn the remaining games into 43 cup finals.

He needs help from the boardroom.

Now i know there are wages and running costs but in the Championship scheme of things we've spent nothing. We haven't even spent all of the unexpected windfall, nevermind the supposed Substantial investment we were led to believe McCabe and the Prince were to provide once we went up.

Chris will strive to not be ripped off but he needs some help now.

So I say this, Wilder has got you so far but now it's time to back him. Give him some proper money to invest or we'll be looking for a new manager as well as new players.

If I had to guess, I would say the board's thinking runs as follows:

1. Wilder got us up last season spending less money than other managers spent in previous failed campaigns.
2. On the evidence of the last two seasons, Wilder seems to know what he's doing.
3. Spending money like Boro or a few others have spent is out of the question. We can't and/or won't do that.
4. As a result of not spending much, there is less chance of challenging for promotion.
5. There is also not much chance of going down given the squad is decent and the manager knows what he's doing.
6. Hence mid table consolidation is the most likely result this season if things go ok.
7. We don't want to spend much to achieve mid table consolidation.
8. We might, however, spend money if we get in trouble, as we did last season and when Clough came in.

In other words: if we win a couple before the window shuts, don't expect them to spend much. If we lose a couple more on the bounce, we might spend now. Otherwise they will hold off until January.

 

[SteveBlade]

Chris: 'Na den Mr McCabe an 'r Prince lad if tha dunt gi t mi sum moneh duz tha no ah much unnececereh bother thi cud cause uz?'

McCabe: 'Aye, Chris. Ere tek this checkbooek, write in it wat tha wantz lad. Nowt above 650 thazund lyk tho pal orate.'

Prince: 'Am r8 rich me.'

 

[I should coco]

Let's wait and see, maybe the Corporal Jones amongst us can hold on for a couple of weeks as well. That as Sgt Wilson would say , would be rather nice.

I'm more worried about the Private Frazer types, if we lose a couple more games:

 

[Kozzy_is_my_Dad]

CONAH COADEH.

 

[Ricky]

Wilder's value policy is a good one but there are possibly occasions where he needs to consider whether his valuations are a little low and whether it's worth spending a bit more than we want to on the odd player.

Being prudent is a dangerous game for a manager to play. Ultimately their jobs are at stake and missing out on players can cost them.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Wilder's value policy is a good one but there are possibly occasions where he needs to consider whether his valuations are a little low and whether it's worth spending a bit more than we want to on the odd player.

Being prudent is a dangerous game for a manager to play. Ultimately their jobs are at stake and missing out on players can cost them.

Not disagreeing, but on the other hand paying over the odds can cost them as well.

 

[chipsncake]

Bottom line is that once again this summer it has been quantity over quality. It should have been 3/4 quality players in with maybe 1 or 2 more to come, keep hold of Whiteman and open the door for a couple of the promising young kids to make the squad. As it is all the incoming players are bang average and already this is beginning to show when it comes to real competition for places. If we don't bring in some quality between now and the end of the month then this season is going to be a real struggle.

 

[JayGreen17]

Wilder has unquestionably done a great job in terms of style, tactics and recruitment.

He's largely done this through self finance as well.

For every Clarke, Moore and Carruthers we've paid money for, there's been an Adams, Ramsdale or Calvert-Lewin paying for the deal many times over more than helping to finance the signing on fees of other joiners.

This year's DCL has come in the guise of Maguire's 16.5m move to Leicester and Walker's potential eventual 54m deal. Worst case, allowing for add-ons yet to be realised, 900k better off for Harry (above 3m and 10% of 4.5m incentives not included) and 4.2m from Walker's up front fee of 4.5m minus the 3m we originally received for him.

At worst 5.1m, potentially due another 1.35m over time.

This could also be supplemented by the tipped departure of Hansen this week.

Of a 5.3m kitty Wilder has spent in the region of 1.7m.

To me, that's insubstantial in relation to the task ahead.

He's done his picking up of useful frees like Stevens. He's brought in those from lower down we hope can step up. Only Stearman comes with any tried and tested stamp and he may well be injured.

Wilder's a great motivator but he can't be expected to turn the remaining games into 43 cup finals.

He needs help from the boardroom.

Now i know there are wages and running costs but in the Championship scheme of things we've spent nothing. We haven't even spent all of the unexpected windfall, nevermind the supposed Substantial investment we were led to believe McCabe and the Prince were to provide once we went up.

Chris will strive to not be ripped off but he needs some help now.

So I say this, Wilder has got you so far but now it's time to back him. Give him some proper money to invest or we'll be looking for a new manager as well as new players.

Bang on the money with this. Bravo....have. Like

 

[Harry's Game]

A "Proven Championship Player" is going to set you back £2-3m minimum if you want a successful one.

If anyone thinks we are going to sign three or four players of that level is living in cloud cuckoo land.

One at most, another League one player with promise and a couple of loan signings I would think.

 

[Cerberus Blade]

This

BT could be argued but what did he ever do for the club?

Yes exactly. BT is our record signing isn't he at about £4M. That was surprisingly ambitious at the time. I had only just stopped shaking after we spent £100k on Chris Guthrie, so it threw me right out of kilter it did. We've never done it since though. Not surprising really. We didn't realise at the time but BT was a carrier of the flu virus and we had to sell him before he infected the whole squad.