Up Top

[Esablade]

Bit puzzled as why we've seemingly reverted to 'one up top' after starting out the season with a 4-4-2.

Playing the likes of Sammon, Done on the wing is baffling in the extreme...(particularly Sammon)
And smacks of shoe-horning them into the team.

Now I know we've got big problems at the back and midfield but surely a top two pairing from Sharp/Sammon/Done/Baxter/Adams/McNulty is the way to go forwards?

Stick Basham at CB ( sorry, he's not good enough for CM IMO) sit Hammond in front of him and get Reed, Coutts or Baxter in front of Hammond... ( problem there being that they don't have a pair of legs between them)

Our main strength so far has been up top, why sabotage it?

 

[jt64]

You did watch our midfield be completely non existent in the first half yesterday? While playing 4-4-2?

 

[Esablade]

You did watch our midfield be completely non existent in the first half yesterday? While playing 4-4-2?

Was Adams meant to be up top with Billy?
We seem to be playing with three 'wingers' behind a front one...as with Clough?!?!?

Or is it 2 'sitting' midfielders..a big gap for the oppo to stroll through and then four forwards!?!?

 

[PeteBlade]

I thought the game was lost as soon as we withdrew JCR and replaced him on the wing with Sammon.
Baffling.

Thought he was the only player to even come close to having the beating of them.

 

[jt64]

Was Adams meant to be up top with Billy?
We seem to be playing with three 'wingers' behind a front one...as with Clough?!?!?

Or is it 2 'sitting' midfielders..a big gap for the oppo to stroll through and then four forwards!?!?

Regardless of how the front four aligned themselves, none of them bothered to track back to midfield. A 4-4-2 suffers two major problems:

1) it becomes very difficult to play it through the centre. At best you have equal numbers of players against you, at worst you have more if they're going 3 in central midfield, have strikers with defensive workrate pulling back etc. Playing it through the centre becomes even more difficult if you use Hammond and Basham as your choices, as distribution is probably not their greatest asset (I'd hope Hammond, with PL experience, should at least be able to do this somewhat competently, but if he can he should probably try it - if recipients are there to want it), and they seemed reluctant to want the ball from central defence to build in the first place

2) it also makes your attack predictable as a result of point 1. The only thing we had going for us yesterday in the first half was JCR. Done might have offered similar, but happened to be having the worst game I've seen, so the opposition could key in on JCR and double team him, hack him (helps with a ref unwilling to make tough decisions) or force him to cross in less than optimal circumstances, which with JCR's inconsistent crossing will usually allow the defence to clear. Crossing quality becomes further limited when none of the front four are taller than about 5'10", which lowers the number of successful options. Starting Sammon instead of Done and moving Adams wide might have better results

While you're correct that we do have strength "up top", it's not just a case of adding more strikers and watching the goals flood in - you need to be able to get the ball to them in good positions. Playing with three in central midfield allows you to:

a) get the ball more often because you simply have more numbers in central midfield, to directly compete for balls/harass/pressure etc
b) have a CM that can sit deeper and drop back to let the central defenders pass to, rather than just rolling it to Freeman/Wallace
c) have a CM that can push forward without worrying about leaving everything exposed if possession is lost - look who popped up in the box for our goal yesterday to fill the gap left by Sharp after he hit the crossfield pass from the left to Freeman
d) simply have another option in close proximity to you in the middle of the park to move possession around with easy passes, waiting for the opposition to lose shape/more advanced players to find space
e) have someone sit so deep that they're effectively just a shield for the centre backs (dare I say that Basham might actually be suited to this), which can release full backs to get forward, either double teaming the opposing full back, or letting the winger cut inside and offering support to the central striker, something that the opposite winger should also be doing

 

[Bladesman]

Playing strikers on the wing is very much like Kevin Blackwell. Adkins needs to forget that idea quickly.

 

[Esablade]

Regardless of how the front four aligned themselves, none of them bothered to track back to midfield. A 4-4-2 suffers two major problems:

1) it becomes very difficult to play it through the centre. At best you have equal numbers of players against you, at worst you have more if they're going 3 in central midfield, have strikers with defensive workrate pulling back etc. Playing it through the centre becomes even more difficult if you use Hammond and Basham as your choices, as distribution is probably not their greatest asset (I'd hope Hammond, with PL experience, should at least be able to do this somewhat competently, but if he can he should probably try it - if recipients are there to want it), and they seemed reluctant to want the ball from central defence to build in the first place

2) it also makes your attack predictable as a result of point 1. The only thing we had going for us yesterday in the first half was JCR. Done might have offered similar, but happened to be having the worst game I've seen, so the opposition could key in on JCR and double team him, hack him (helps with a ref unwilling to make tough decisions) or force him to cross in less than optimal circumstances, which with JCR's inconsistent crossing will usually allow the defence to clear. Crossing quality becomes further limited when none of the front four are taller than about 5'10", which lowers the number of successful options. Starting Sammon instead of Done and moving Adams wide might have better results

While you're correct that we do have strength "up top", it's not just a case of adding more strikers and watching the goals flood in - you need to be able to get the ball to them in good positions. Playing with three in central midfield allows you to:

a) get the ball more often because you simply have more numbers in central midfield, to directly compete for balls/harass/pressure etc
b) have a CM that can sit deeper and drop back to let the central defenders pass to, rather than just rolling it to Freeman/Wallace
c) have a CM that can push forward without worrying about leaving everything exposed if possession is lost - look who popped up in the box for our goal yesterday to fill the gap left by Sharp after he hit the crossfield pass from the left to Freeman
d) simply have another option in close proximity to you in the middle of the park to move possession around with easy passes, waiting for the opposition to lose shape/more advanced players to find space
e) have someone sit so deep that they're effectively just a shield for the centre backs (dare I say that Basham might actually be suited to this), which can release full backs to get forward, either double teaming the opposing full back, or letting the winger cut inside and offering support to the central striker, something that the opposite winger should also be doing

Of course all systems have major problems if the players can't perform the roles required.
Playing strikers on the wing and then hoping they 'track back' is idealistic at best...Adams has neither the desire nor the ability to track back and Done has given 2-3 goals away over the last few weeks through switching off...as for Sammon, well he's not by any stretch a winger/RM is he?

Square pegs again...

 

[Blade56]

Done hasn't looked interested last couple of games, work rate and head down (but can still score goals) wouldn't be surprised if he goes on loan to Wigan with a view to a perm inane deal in Jan.

 

[ThatJa]

Adkins come out and made a point that Sammon didn't come on as a winger, but as an inside forward..

I mean as fans you can only go on what you see infront of you, and it very much looked like Sammon was on the wing. Wayyyyy too deep.

 

[sothall blade]

Done hasn't looked interested last couple of games, work rate and head down (but can still score goals) wouldn't be surprised if he goes on loan to Wigan with a view to a perm inane deal in Jan.

why wigan ? have they been in for him before ? only i may have missed that rumour

 

[Blade56]

why wigan ? have they been in for him before ? only i may have missed that rumour

Yeh, understand they enquired prior to start of season. Or am I going dippy or are you sarcastic you little minx?

 

[FTPE]

I seem to remember Wigan sniffing around.
Done is the last player id let out the door though!!

 

[Bergen Blade]

Regardless of how the front four aligned themselves, none of them bothered to track back to midfield. A 4-4-2 suffers two major problems:

1) it becomes very difficult to play it through the centre. At best you have equal numbers of players against you, at worst you have more if they're going 3 in central midfield, have strikers with defensive workrate pulling back etc. Playing it through the centre becomes even more difficult if you use Hammond and Basham as your choices, as distribution is probably not their greatest asset (I'd hope Hammond, with PL experience, should at least be able to do this somewhat competently, but if he can he should probably try it - if recipients are there to want it), and they seemed reluctant to want the ball from central defence to build in the first place

2) it also makes your attack predictable as a result of point 1. The only thing we had going for us yesterday in the first half was JCR. Done might have offered similar, but happened to be having the worst game I've seen, so the opposition could key in on JCR and double team him, hack him (helps with a ref unwilling to make tough decisions) or force him to cross in less than optimal circumstances, which with JCR's inconsistent crossing will usually allow the defence to clear. Crossing quality becomes further limited when none of the front four are taller than about 5'10", which lowers the number of successful options. Starting Sammon instead of Done and moving Adams wide might have better results

While you're correct that we do have strength "up top", it's not just a case of adding more strikers and watching the goals flood in - you need to be able to get the ball to them in good positions. Playing with three in central midfield allows you to:

a) get the ball more often because you simply have more numbers in central midfield, to directly compete for balls/harass/pressure etc
b) have a CM that can sit deeper and drop back to let the central defenders pass to, rather than just rolling it to Freeman/Wallace
c) have a CM that can push forward without worrying about leaving everything exposed if possession is lost - look who popped up in the box for our goal yesterday to fill the gap left by Sharp after he hit the crossfield pass from the left to Freeman
d) simply have another option in close proximity to you in the middle of the park to move possession around with easy passes, waiting for the opposition to lose shape/more advanced players to find space
e) have someone sit so deep that they're effectively just a shield for the centre backs (dare I say that Basham might actually be suited to this), which can release full backs to get forward, either double teaming the opposing full back, or letting the winger cut inside and offering support to the central striker, something that the opposite winger should also be doing

Attention people, very good post!

It's amazing with the numbers of midfielders we have it is so difficult to find a combination that suits the manager's preferred formation. He's hoped Basham and Hammond would be strong enough for us to get away with very attack-minded players out wide + two strikers. But their common weakness - playmaking - has twice meant we've just struggled to get any sort of passing moves going, especially in the first half of both matches.

The early goal vs Fleetwood may have papered over the cracks. There were some individual good stuff in the first half vs Millwall, but there were always plenty of defenders back when we got near the box. And not just back - ready, waiting, anticipating. Our main problem was the lack of tempo and creativity. I think Done would work in a front three, but not wide in a 4-4-2. JCR had some good runs, but again there were always players in the way when he got crosses in.

If Adkins scraps the 4-4-2 it's still going to be difficult composing the best midfield. I see many are advocating a switch to this formation with two holding players and one advanced. Many are suggesting Hammond, Coutts and Baxter. I wouldn't be against trying it, but in today's modern football, fitness, movement and athleticism is vital. Maybe you can get away with one midfielder being below average in this respect, but all three?

I think there is real potential in a Done/Sharp/Adams front trio, but we have to get a strong midfield trio together that wins the midfield battle and enables us to play a high tempo, flowing game.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

I thought the game was lost as soon as we withdrew JCR and replaced him on the wing with Sammon.
Baffling.

Thought he was the only player to even come close to having the beating of them.

Think JCR was knackered.

 

[SwissBlade]

I thought the game was lost as soon as we withdrew JCR and replaced him on the wing with Sammon.
Baffling.

Thought he was the only player to even come close to having the beating of them.

Did he put a decent cross in?

 

[PeteBlade]

Did he put a decent cross in?

He put a couple of good balls in that weren't capitalised upon.

Sammon was never going to help on the wing.

 

[Cutbush City Limits]

Attention people, very good post!

It's amazing with the numbers of midfielders we have it is so difficult to find a combination that suits the manager's preferred formation. He's hoped Basham and Hammond would be strong enough for us to get away with very attack-minded players out wide + two strikers. But their common weakness - playmaking - has twice meant we've just struggled to get any sort of passing moves going, especially in the first half of both matches.

The early goal vs Fleetwood may have papered over the cracks. There were some individual good stuff in the first half vs Millwall, but there were always plenty of defenders back when we got near the box. And not just back - ready, waiting, anticipating. Our main problem was the lack of tempo and creativity. I think Done would work in a front three, but not wide in a 4-4-2. JCR had some good runs, but again there were always players in the way when he got crosses in.

If Adkins scraps the 4-4-2 it's still going to be difficult composing the best midfield. I see many are advocating a switch to this formation with two holding players and one advanced. Many are suggesting Hammond, Coutts and Baxter. I wouldn't be against trying it, but in today's modern football, fitness, movement and athleticism is vital. Maybe you can get away with one midfielder being below average in this respect, but all three?

I think there is real potential in a Done/Sharp/Adams front trio, but we have to get a strong midfield trio together that wins the midfield battle and enables us to play a high tempo, flowing game.

Totally agree with this ^^

Our main issue is pace, not just that we lack players with pace, but the speed of thought and the speed with which we move the ball. So often we slow everything down when in good positions because either we aren't good enough to move the ball quickly, we lack forward movement or simply we just aren't confident enough - all worrying.

With the exception of Done and maybe JCR we do also lack players with pace. People talk about Adams' pace but even he is more a powerful runner than a quick sprinter - twice in the 2nd half he was set free on the right channel and had to check back as the defenders comfortably closed him down.

Ultimately you can get away with no physical pace IF you move the ball quickly - we have/do neither and so are relatively easy to defend against.

 

[Esablade]

Totally agree with this ^^

Our main issue is pace, not just that we lack players with pace, but the speed of thought and the speed with which we move the ball. So often we slow everything down when in good positions because either we aren't good enough to move the ball quickly, we lack forward movement or simply we just aren't confident enough - all worrying.

With the exception of Done and maybe JCR we do also lack players with pace. People talk about Adams' pace but even he is more a powerful runner than a quick sprinter - twice in the 2nd half he was set free on the right channel and had to check back as the defenders comfortably closed him down.

Ultimately you can get away with no physical pace IF you move the ball quickly - we have/do neither and so are relatively easy to defend against.

...and I think Adkin's mentioned early on in the season that we're simply not moving the ball quick enough...