U23s away at Crewe

[Silent Blade]

I told you I didn’t know. If you want to make that assumption but have no idea if it is true or not then fine.

It was you who suggested we loan him to a higher club!

 

[Bladesman]

 

[Redhead]

It was you who suggested we loan him to a higher club!

I suggested we should send him to a higher level. At no point did I say there had or had not been an offer from a higher division club.
If SUFC thought enough of the player they should be working hard to make sure L1 clubs know he is available.

Footballs not just about waiting for a club to knock on your door and ask to take a young player on loan. If you want one of your players to go on loan you start ringing clubs to say he is available.

Maybe we did tell L1 clubs Gilmour was available maybe they didn’t. How the fuck am I supposed to know.

 

[Silent Blade]

I suggested we should send him to a higher level. At no point did I say there had or had not been an offer from a higher division club.
If SUFC thought enough of the player they should be working hard to make sure L1 clubs know he is available.

Footballs not just about waiting for a club to knock on your door and ask to take a young player on loan. If you want one of your players to go on loan you start ringing clubs to say he is available.

Maybe we did tell L1 clubs Gilmour was available maybe they didn’t. How the fuck am I supposed to know.

Like me. you have no knowledge on whether there were higher clubs enquiring about Gilmour. I dont believe I should be having an opinion about whether we should keep him or not because I do not have the facts. You think you should be having an opinion without the facts?

 

[Chali 2na]

Like me. you have no knowledge on whether there were higher clubs enquiring about Gilmour. I dont believe I should be having an opinion about whether we should keep him or not because I do not have the facts. You think you should be having an opinion without the facts?

You don't need to know all the clubs interested in him to form an opinion on whether or not to keep him, what strange logic.

I don't have a clue which (if any) clubs are interested in Billy Sharp, I know we should keep him though.

 

[Ranmoorblade]

It was you who suggested we loan him to a higher club!

What you've got to ask is he a Happy Gilmour?

 

[Pollingtonblade]

In 85/86 I remember our youth side won the league with Clive Mendonca banging goals in.

 

[bromtom]

Just to chuck my tuppeneth in, I get frustrated when players get on the bench and then vanish like Smith and Slater, Slater especially as he had an appearance and was decent, Smith should've come on in the game he was on the bench for which eludes me at 6:43am because why not, think Johnson came on instead and we all know about him.

Does feel like we're too good for our academy at the moment though, if we were mid table plodders I feel like Slater would be on the bench on the regular, and making appearances but when you're trying to go up you don't get the chance to try things really, so we send them out on loan, a byproduct of which is they're away for the Carabao cup and have only just come back and aren't ready to play in our team for the FA Cup 3rd round, and they further we get the less likely it is they appear anyway.

RND also made some promising appearances with the first team preseason, and to my eyes would be preferable to Johnson, but I don't see them day in day out so my frustration is probably misguided.

I do think we should gamble on strikers more though. I feel like that position is most forgiving. If you work hard, know where to be and can finish you can probably compete at quite high levels, at least in my head.

Maybe that Barnet performance will make Wilder think about shipping some out and replacing them with academy players, as I said is Johnson actually any better as backup for Stevens than RND? More expensive and a little quicker maybe. The small amount of time they are needed makes it less of a risk, and training with the first team would do them the world of good.

Also wonder whether Wilder's experience of being binned off by Southampton academy means he's more inclined to choose from players who've had a bit of life experience and the kick up the arse that comes with some form of disappointment? Rather than a straight ride through the system. That could and most probably is bollocks though admittedly.

 

[BushBlade]

Just to chuck my tuppeneth in, I get frustrated when players get on the bench and then vanish like Smith and Slater, Slater especially as he had an appearance and was decent, Smith should've come on in the game he was on the bench for which eludes me at 6:43am because why not, think Johnson came on instead and we all know about him.

Does feel like we're too good for our academy at the moment though, if we were mid table plodders I feel like Slater would be on the bench on the regular, and making appearances but when you're trying to go up you don't get the chance to try things really, so we send them out on loan, a byproduct of which is they're away for the Carabao cup and have only just come back and aren't ready to play in our team for the FA Cup 3rd round, and they further we get the less likely it is they appear anyway.

RND also made some promising appearances with the first team preseason, and to my eyes would be preferable to Johnson, but I don't see them day in day out so my frustration is probably misguided.

I do think we should gamble on strikers more though. I feel like that position is most forgiving. If you work hard, know where to be and can finish you can probably compete at quite high levels, at least in my head.

Maybe that Barnet performance will make Wilder think about shipping some out and replacing them with academy players, as I said is Johnson actually any better as backup for Stevens than RND? More expensive and a little quicker maybe. The small amount of time they are needed makes it less of a risk, and training with the first team would do them the world of good.

Also wonder whether Wilder's experience of being binned off by Southampton academy means he's more inclined to choose from players who've had a bit of life experience and the kick up the arse that comes with some form of disappointment? Rather than a straight ride through the system. That could and most probably is bollocks though admittedly.

If Smith had come off the bench he wouldn’t have been able to go on loan to Donny as you can’t play for three clubs in one season.

 

[Redhead]

Like me. you have no knowledge on whether there were higher clubs enquiring about Gilmour. I dont believe I should be having an opinion about whether we should keep him or not because I do not have the facts. You think you should be having an opinion without the facts?

I have no fucking idea what you are rambling on about.
To be honest I don’t think you know what your rambling on about either.

If you don’t believe you should have an opinion on this subject then move on to another thread and confuse them.

 

[Silent Blade]

I have no fucking idea what you are rambling on about.
To be honest I don’t think you know what your rambling on about either.

If you don’t believe you should have an opinion on this subject then move on to another thread and confuse them.

.
Gilmour won the EPL young player of the month in October. No mean feat. Yet he is still not deemed good enough to be recalled and sent out to a higher club. We accepted an offer to off load him.

That is a fact.

My point is we are once again letting 19/20 lads leave even when they have done very well on their first loan to a league club.

This is what you posted. You have not provided any evidence to support your claim that he could have gone to a higher club.

 

[Silent Blade]

You don't need to know all the clubs interested in him to form an opinion on whether or not to keep him, what strange logic.

I don't have a clue which (if any) clubs are interested in Billy Sharp, I know we should keep him though.

Where is the evidence to support Redhead 's claim that Gilmour has gone to a higher club.

It is ridiculous to claim that Wilder is an Academyblocker. Over the years Academies concentrate on one or two per age group who they think that can make the first team (the rest just make up the numbers) but since our Academy became category 2 under EPPP, Category 1 Academies have taken many of our best players in the younger age groups.

Clough tried to nuture the Academy players to the 1st team but it didn't really work.

 

[Chali 2na]

Where is the evidence to support Redhead 's claim that Gilmour has gone to a higher club.

As far as I can tell, he never claimed such a thing. Looks to me like you're putting words in other people's mouths.

It is ridiculous to claim that Wilder is an Academyblocker.

Who claimed that Wilder is an "Academyblocker"?

Over the years Academies concentrate on one or two per age group who they think that can make the first team (the rest just make up the numbers) but since our Academy became category 2 under EPPP, Category 1 Academies have taken many of our best players in the younger age groups.

Clough tried to nuture the Academy players to the 1st team but it didn't really work.

And your point is?

 

[Silent Blade]

Who claimed that Wilder is an "Academyblocker"?

Ball_Sup (Phil)

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Ball_Sup (Phil)

No - I'm not having that Silent Blade
I have tried hard to say that our recent success & rapid rise mean we have signed a lot of players who we have now passed & who won't win back a first team place. Signed by Wilder correctly, but now passed over. Those players are now part of a bloated squad & sit in front of Academy Players. I am at pains to say any Academy players can only get in the first team on merit. In that narrow sense, there is a block of signed second string players, who won't win back a regular first team spot in front of Academy players.
If you point to any post of mine that says Wilder is an Academy Blocker, or blames Wilder - even by implication. I will happily withdraw it & apologise.
For eg see posts #1 #17 #20 #44
You've got it wrong here....

 

[Silent Blade]

No - I'm not having that Silent Blade
I have tried hard to say that our recent success & rapid rise mean we have signed a lot of players who we have now passed & who won't win back a first team place. Signed by Wilder correctly, but now passed over. Those players are now part of a bloated squad & sit in front of Academy Players. I am at pains to say any Academy players can only get in the first team on merit. In that narrow sense, there is a block of signed second string players, who won't win back a regular first team spot in front of Academy players.
If you point to any post of mine that says Wilder is an Academy Blocker, or blames Wilder - even by implication. I will happily withdraw it & apologise.
For eg see posts #1 #17 #20 #44
You've got it wrong here....

Wilder decides who gets into the 1st team. Has someone told him not to pick the Academy players hence your claim that the club is an Academyblocker?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Wilder decides who gets into the 1st team. Has someone told him not to pick the Academy players hence your claim that the club is an Academyblocker?

He is not picking the Academy Players for the First Team yet because they aren't good enough yet. I think you're reading too much into my use of the word block. Post #17, I offered to use a different word if it would aid understanding.

I get that people are emotive. And, I've kicked it off. But, I'm just .... there are a larger number than usual number of players in the second string & out on loan, and a lot of senior Academy Development players on loan. That means there is, in my opinion, a longer than usual queue in front of the U23 players to the first team.

 

[Silent Blade]

He is not picking the Academy Players for the First Team yet because they aren't good enough yet. I think you're reading too much into my use of the word block. Post #17, I offered to use a different word if it would aid understanding.

I will read it later. Very confusing!

 

[Balham]

This whole academy blocking thing...

None of the current U23s (either those out on loan or those in what used to be the reserves) are good enough to get into the Sheffield United First XI. That's pretty clear: we only have one regular starter under the age of 24 (Henderson) and if the U23s were good enough they'd be in the squad.

We also have a reserve XI made up of players we've signed and are paying Championship squad player wages to. These players should be better than the youth players; their CVs definitely have more first team - been there, done that - experience. That XI was the one which started the game against Barnet: those players should have been good enough - and crucially experienced enough - to beat a mid-table Conference side. That they didn't will, ironically, probably do more for the careers of some of the U23s than any of their own performances would have.

Dissecting the Barnet team:
Moore - was there genuine interest in the summer from West Brom? If there was, signing Moore to improved terms seems to have been the wrong call
Freeman - something's wrong with him. Not sure what but I hope he recovers soon
Cranie - the epitomy of squad filler. There because there isn't an U23 option at RCB yet
Stearman - a multi-million pound investment at the start of last season.
Bryan - young player given a chance. Not from our academy but equally not blocked
Johnson - looks like he genuinely has no idea what he's supposed to be doing on a football pitch. Is there a LWB in the U23s? Norrington-Davies is out on loan which is better for his development than playing reserve football
Lundstram - highly rated by the coaching staff but surely running out of chances now
Coutts - returning from a serious injury
Dowell - highly rated at Everton, did well at Forest last season
Washington/Clarke - backup strikers. Smith is on loan at Doncaster; the other forwards in the U23s probably aren't ready yet.

We could have debuted a couple of the senior U23s (Mallon, Oure, Doherty) but Wilder's not one for charity. He would believe that those players he picked are better than those he didn't but the question for me now is what he does when he needs a central midfielder for the bench when Norwood gets banned - does he put Lundstram in or does he put Doherty there? Madine will obviously replace Washington; does Mallon replace Johnson?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I will read it later. Very confusing!

Thanks Silent Blade . Particularly read the bits where I say I support Wilder, nothing is being done deliberately, the large number of players is an unfortunate consequence of our success & Academy players can only get in the first team on merit. Maybe you think you've read something different from me. But, that's what I've posted on this thread.

 

[Silent Blade]

EddieColquhoun Yesterday, a Cup game, v non league, in a hectic schedule, with the manager making 11 changes, not one Academy player involved in that squad. I'm not saying, he should be, what about him. I'm saying the Academy players can't get near the 2nd XI. Is it because I'm using the word BLOCKED that you're coming at me? I'm happy to use something different to describe the situation if that will build a bridge. And I'm saying BLOCKED yesterday, not blocked when DCL, Ramsdale, Brooks were around. Are we meeting anywhere in the middle?

Just read this. I think I understand what you are trying to say.

Usually when the 1st team is doing well and aiming for promotion the manager goes for experience thus holding back one or two Academy players who "might be ready for the 1st team" which is understandable. The Academy player who might "ready for the 1st team" has a better chance of progressing if the 1st team are struggling and are playing in the lower divisions.

Which Academy players do you think should be playing against Barnet last Sunday? I remember Bassett talking about youth players who progress to the first team. He said that in one season Wimbledon youth team were doing well and thrashing opponents but none from that squad ever made it to the 1st team, but in another season the youth team were always getting thrashed and were in a lowly position in the league but Brian Gayle was playing in that team! Maybe Wilder didnt think any of the Academy players were ready apart from those who were cup tied, also Semple played for QOTS last Saturday.

 

[BushBlade]

This whole academy blocking thing...

None of the current U23s (either those out on loan or those in what used to be the reserves) are good enough to get into the Sheffield United First XI. That's pretty clear: we only have one regular starter under the age of 24 (Henderson) and if the U23s were good enough they'd be in the squad.

We also have a reserve XI made up of players we've signed and are paying Championship squad player wages to. These players should be better than the youth players; their CVs definitely have more first team - been there, done that - experience. That XI was the one which started the game against Barnet: those players should have been good enough - and crucially experienced enough - to beat a mid-table Conference side. That they didn't will, ironically, probably do more for the careers of some of the U23s than any of their own performances would have.

Dissecting the Barnet team:
Moore - was there genuine interest in the summer from West Brom? If there was, signing Moore to improved terms seems to have been the wrong call
Freeman - something's wrong with him. Not sure what but I hope he recovers soon
Cranie - the epitomy of squad filler. There because there isn't an U23 option at RCB yet
Stearman - a multi-million pound investment at the start of last season.
Bryan - young player given a chance. Not from our academy but equally not blocked
Johnson - looks like he genuinely has no idea what he's supposed to be doing on a football pitch. Is there a LWB in the U23s? Norrington-Davies is out on loan which is better for his development than playing reserve football
Lundstram - highly rated by the coaching staff but surely running out of chances now
Coutts - returning from a serious injury
Dowell - highly rated at Everton, did well at Forest last season
Washington/Clarke - backup strikers. Smith is on loan at Doncaster; the other forwards in the U23s probably aren't ready yet.

We could have debuted a couple of the senior U23s (Mallon, Oure, Doherty) but Wilder's not one for charity. He would believe that those players he picked are better than those he didn't but the question for me now is what he does when he needs a central midfielder for the bench when Norwood gets banned - does he put Lundstram in or does he put Doherty there? Madine will obviously replace Washington; does Mallon replace Johnson?

I could be wrong but I think you can recall a loan player at a non league club outside of the transfer windows. So if Stevens got injured I think we could recall RND.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Just read this. I think I understand what you are trying to say.

Usually when the 1st team is doing well and aiming for promotion the manager goes for experience thus holding back one or two Academy players who "might be ready for the 1st team" which is understandable. The Academy player who might "ready for the 1st team" has a better chance of progressing if the 1st team are struggling and are playing in the lower divisions.

Which Academy players do you think should be playing against Barnet last Sunday? I remember Bassett talking about youth players who progress to the first team. He said that in one season Wimbledon youth team were doing well and thrashing opponents but none from that squad ever made it to the 1st team, but in another season the youth team were always getting thrashed and were in a lowly position in the league but Brian Gayle was playing in that team! Maybe Wilder didnt think any of the Academy players were ready apart from those who were cup tied, also Semple played for QOTS last Saturday.

Silent Blade
Right, maybe we're closer to the same page. My main point is an observation. The planets have aligned such that no Academy player was involved v Barnet. Despite the manager resting all the first team. That is because we have a big second string squad. And a host of senior Academy players out on loan. It's an observation, not a criticism. I have (elsewhere) called the current U23 lads the 4th XI. So, none of them are anywhere near the Championship Squad. And, I fully understand that the manager feels none of them are anywhere near the FA Cup squad. I wasn't angling for any of them to make the squad. I was remarking that they hadn't.
I wish the planets had aligned differently & Ty Smith, Harvey Gilmour, Norrington-Davies & Callum Semple had been able to be involved. But, they didn't & that's the way. It would have been great to see how they did in an FA Cup squad. But that wasn't to be.
Of the actual, available U23 lads, I wouldn't have minded seeing Stephen Mallon given a shot in the squad. He's the most advanced of the ones who are here. I understand why he wasn't. And I'm not saying he should have been. I'm just saying, if anyone, him.
I very much agree with your Post & hope we're friends again.....
I never accused Wilder of being an Academy Blocker.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

FFS. It might even be "Peace In Our Time". I'd better sneak the Blog out. Cast your minds back 6 pages. I was having a coffee in Morrisons waiting for Carrier Bag Firm Car One to whisk me to Crewe. I (inadvisedly) used the phrase Academy Blocked (note Blocked not Blocking or Blocker - we don't want that raking over again). Anyway thanks to many/all for chipping in on this thread. I'm very happy to say, my mind has been changed & I've backtracked somewhat. The Blog is a bit calmer. I was ill. I had no Beer. It rained. I missed two goals while having a tiddle. Poor....
There's a slice of CBF life about how Betting Companies get details from games such as this. And a view on a Trialist. No point signing him, his route to the first team is Blocked..... Does it really say that though. You'd better have a look.

https://ball-sup.blogspot.com/2019/01/how-to-beat-odds.html