U23s away at Crewe

[EddieColquhoun]

I think we may have both misunderstood eachother, my apologies. I'll clarify my opinion:

I think (rightly or wrongly) there is no path from the academy to the first team at the moment. (Some might say the path is "blocked" - though that's becoming a divisive term)

There seems to be 2 schools of thought, either:

• The academy graduates aren't good enough to get into the team.

Or

• The academy graduates aren't getting a chance to prove their worth in the team.

I think there's probabaly an element of truth in both.

Ball_Sup (Phil) made the good point that no academy graduates featured on Sunday, due to the fact we have 2 senior players for every position - you can either look at this as a sign of our strength and depth or alternatively, you can view it as a blockade for academy graduates trying to break into the squad - the fact is that it's probabaly both.

No worries,pal.
I think our latest signing shows that CW will put players in the team if he thinks they're good enough.
Our academy has been going for 17 years and people can't seem to find one player who can support the "blocked" conspiracy.

 

[Chali 2na]

No worries,pal.
I think our latest signing shows that CW will put players in the team if he thinks they're good enough.
Our academy has been going for 17 years and people can't seem to find one player who can support the "blocked" conspiracy.

It's not been an ongoing issue for 17 years, just the last 2 or 3.
And no example of a player can support the "conspiracy" - it's the lack of players that support it.

I should repeat as well that I'm not complaining: we're doing well on the pitch and that's the most important thing, it's just (to me at least) it seems a lot harder for a graduate to get in the team now than it did a few years back.

Do you agree with any of that?

 

[Rodley]

It's not that simple though. Take Brooks as an example. He was about to be sent out on loan to a League 2 club but because he had a good international tournament the deal was pulled. The rest is history. His ability wasn't spotted in the U-23s or in training but through sheer luck that he excelled in a summer tournament.

Youngsters won't normally just obviously be ready. They need an opportunity. As a club, we're often frustratingly disinclined to provide it and would rather play players who we know aren't good enough instead.

If Brooks had gone out on loan to a struggling club, what are the chances that he'd have a similar impact to Gilmour and end up being sold?

Brooks was training with the first team for a while prior to heading out on loan.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Chali 2na

We've been challenging at the top of the leagues in that time. If we were still a mid-table League One side it might have been easier.
You do have to think that other clubs are desperate for players. No other Championship team has come in for any of these young pros and not one of them has played as high as League One yet. If these players are being blocked there are 68 clubs doing it.

 

[Silent Blade]

Kevin Davies? Can’t think of any others.

Bassett's youth policy was awful. Remember Whitehouse and Ward joined us when McEwan was our manager.

Wonder how Ball_Sup (Phil) and Redhead coped during Bassett's years?

 

[BushBlade]

I agreed with your post. I was adding to your point about Semple and Slater but if I'd quoted all your post that bit would have been faded out!

Sorry, I thought you were in some way contradicting me.

 

[Chali 2na]

Chali 2na

We've been challenging at the top of the leagues in that time. If we were still a mid-table League One side it might have been easier.

Absoloutely, you're right - that's why I tried to be very clear that I'm not complaining, it's a side effect of our success.

You do have to think that other clubs are desperate for players. No other Championship team has come in for any of these young pros and not one of them has played as high as League One yet. If these players are being blocked there are 68 clubs doing it.

A fair point, though one obvious exception to that is Dom Calvert-Lewin, he struggled to get on the bench for us in league 1, yet within a year he was featuring for Everton in the PL and has since made over 50 appearances.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

A fair point, though one obvious exception to that is Dom Calvert-Lewin, he struggled to get on the bench for us in league 1, yet within a year he was featuring for Everton in the PL and has since made over 50 appearances.

DCL had a good loan at Northampton playing 26 times under Chris Wilder!
Wilder picked him for us pre-season and he scored a couple of goals at Grimsby before going off injured.
CW has spoken of his regret at sacrificing DCL and said we wouldn't have had to sell him as a Championship club.

I was actually referring to the current crop of young pros. So far, not one has played at League One or above.

 

[Chali 2na]

DCL had a good loan at Northampton playing 26 times under Chris Wilder!
Wilder picked him for us pre-season and he scored a couple of goals at Grimsby before going off injured.
CW has spoken of his regret at sacrificing DCL and said we wouldn't have had to sell him as a Championship club.

I completely get what you're saying, and DCL isn't the perfect example, but he didn't make a single competitive appearance under Wilder before being sold. (If he was injured from the Grimsby game until deadline day, then fair enough - I'll be honest I can't remember.)

I was actually referring to the current crop of young pros. So far, not one has played at League One or above.

I'm confused; which crop are talking about? Surely it's too soon to tell?

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I completely get what you're saying, and DCL isn't the perfect example, but he didn't make a single competitive appearance under Wilder before being sold.

Played in the home defeat to Crewe in EFL cup.

I'm confused; which crop are talking about? Surely it's too soon to tell?

I think we're all confused, pal! We've got some 19-20 year olds out on loan. I'm not writing any of them off.

Some people think these lads are being blocked from our first team. My point was that any club could loan them, but not one has played a game at League One level or above. If these lads are being blocked we could be part of a 68 club blocking conspiracy!

 

[Chali 2na]

Played in the home defeat to Crewe in EFL cup.l

In a way, that kind of illustrates my point: We have him for the whole of August, and he only managed 1 sub appearance, yet by December, he's playing against Arsenal in the PL.

I think we're all confused, pal! We've got some 19-20 year olds out on loan. I'm not writing any of them off.

Some people think these lads are being blocked from our first team. My point was that any club could loan them, but not one has played a game at League One level or above. If these lads are being blocked we could be part of a 68 club blocking conspiracy!

I do get that, and it's a very strong point: If they're good enough, and they're getting blocked here, then why aren't they on loan elsewhere?

I would make 2 observations in response though:

• Some clubs may not be willing to take a completely untested youngster on loan - look at our experience with Woodburn.
• The club's that loan our youngsters may not get the best out of them: Harry Kane had 4 largely unsuccessful loan spells before returning to Tottenham and becoming one of the best strikers in the world.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

In a way, that kind of illustrates my point: We have him for the whole of August, and he only managed 1 sub appearance, yet by December, he's playing against Arsenal in the PL.

We had him for a while before that and unfortunately he never scored a goal for us. CW sacrificed him to build a team that won 100 points. In an ideal world he'd still be here.

I do get that, and it's a very strong point: If they're good enough, and they're getting blocked here, then why aren't they on loan elsewhere?

If they're good enough they would be in our first team. I just don't get the argument that we've spent years developing these lads but now we've decided to block them.

 

[Chali 2na]

We had him for a while before that and unfortunately he never scored a goal for us. CW sacrificed him to build a team that won 100 points. In an ideal world he'd still be here.

How many times did he start for us?

If they're good enough they would be in our first team

Is that 100% true 100% of the time? I don't think it is. Sometimes you don't know if they're good enough until they're in the team - just look at someone like Rashford.

I just don't get the argument that we've spent years developing these lads but now we've decided to block them.

That's where you missing my point; we didn't decide to block any players, we inadvertently blocked them by strengthening the squad.

I'll try and give you an example: last year we signed Ben Heneghan as a backup at CB, he made a handful of appearances.
This essentially blocked Callum Semple's pathway to the first team. Fast forward a year and they're at a simalar level: one has been on loan in the Scottish Championship, the other in L1 - we could have made a small saving on wages/fees, promoting an academy graduate.

I'll admit I've over-simplified it, and I have the benefit of hindsight, but I'm just trying to illustrate that in building such a strong squad, there are casualties.

Again, for the record, I'm 100% behind Wilder, and our squad depth has been a major feature of our success.

 

[Redhead]

Bassett's youth policy was awful. Remember Whitehouse and Ward joined us when McEwan was our manager.

Wonder how Ball_Sup (Phil) and Redhead coped during Bassett's years?

I coped just fine in the Basset years. The Academy structure is far different these days to what we had then.

I will also not apologise when I say that since CW came in our academy players have not had a chance when clearly they could have.

Slater had a great game at Ipswich then nothing. A time when he could have been involved far more.
Semple was ready to be involved but Heneghan was brought in for an FA Cup game and the benefit of being a first team squad player.

But this is where people dont listen to me in that if Wilder feels or felt they were not ready then so be it.

IMO it was a perfect chance to integrate them into the first team squad.

He also obviously rates Dowell from watching him in Everton’s u23s than he does Gilmour playing for Tranmere first team.

That’s up to our manager and he deserves to be trusted with these choices.

Do I agree....: No. but it is only my opinion.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

He also obviously rates Dowell from watching him in Everton’s u23s than he does Gilmour playing for Tranmere first team.

That’s up to our manager and he deserves to be trusted with these choices.

Do I agree....: No. but it is only my opinion.

To make your point you've ignored Dowell's 45 appearances for Everton and Forest (with an impressive 10 goals). You've also ignored his 38 England appearances from U16 to U21.
It's hardly a balanced argument.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Slater had a great game at Ipswich then nothing. A time when he could have been involved far more.
Semple was ready to be involved but Heneghan was brought in for an FA Cup game and the benefit of being a first team squad player.

Some of the young lads were out injured long-term. Does CW pay these players when they're not fit and then extend their contracts, then deliberately not pick them and then carry on paying them for a lot longer? Or in his opinion, does he not think they are ready for his team and a loan out would suit better?

 

[Silent Blade]

I coped just fine in the Basset years. The Academy structure is far different these days to what we had then.

I will also not apologise when I say that since CW came in our academy players have not had a chance when clearly they could have.

Slater had a great game at Ipswich then nothing. A time when he could have been involved far more.
Semple was ready to be involved but Heneghan was brought in for an FA Cup game and the benefit of being a first team squad player.

But this is where people dont listen to me in that if Wilder feels or felt they were not ready then so be it.

IMO it was a perfect chance to integrate them into the first team squad.

He also obviously rates Dowell from watching him in Everton’s u23s than he does Gilmour playing for Tranmere first team.

That’s up to our manager and he deserves to be trusted with these choices.

Do I agree....: No. but it is only my opinion.

It was different in 1964

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I'll try and give you an example: last year we signed Ben Heneghan as a backup at CB, he made a handful of appearances.
This essentially blocked Callum Semple's pathway to the first team. Fast forward a year and they're at a simalar level: one has been on loan in the Scottish Championship, the other in L1 - we could have made a small saving on wages/fees, promoting an academy graduate.

Heneghan was a gamble that didn't work. But when we signed him a season and a half ago he had played 41 games in the Scottish prem and Semple was coming back from a long-term injury. Heneghan has played 28 times in League One this season which is a level above any of our young pros at the moment.
Hopefully Semple and Smith can kick on after successful loans.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

It was different in 1964

Did the parents of those in the suits think that those in the stripes were blocking them?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I've got my match report Blog from yesterday's U23 game written & ready. Naturally, I'm a bit nervous posting it. I've checked this thread again. I see it's still flaring up. I'll give it a day or two maybe....

 

[Chali 2na]

Did the parents of those in the suits think that those in the stripes were blocking them?

If you're jusy going to be facetious, I'll leave it there. I've said my bit anyway.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

If you're jusy going to be facetious, I'll leave it there. I've said my bit anyway.

Lighten up pal, it was a joke. I'm out of here too, pal.
Sorry Ball_Sup (Phil) . Get thee report on!

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Lighten up pal, it was a joke. I'm out of here too, pal.
Sorry Ball_Sup (Phil) . Get thee report on!

I'm still re-writing the following...
"The Crewe No. 9 wriggled clear, great control, and got his shot off. Superbly blocked on the line by George Cantrill"

But, I'm aware I need to avoid "blocked". I need to block blocked if you will.

It's something like....
"....got his shot off. Which didn't go in, because it wasn't good enough to go in & anyway if Wilder wanted it to go in, it would have gone in"

.....needs work....

I'll admit, my mood was quite light as I posted this.

 

[Redhead]

Some of the young lads were out injured long-term. Does CW pay these players when they're not fit and then extend their contracts, then deliberately not pick them and then carry on paying them for a lot longer? Or in his opinion, does he not think they are ready for his team and a loan out would suit better?

Some of the young lads were out injured long-term. Does CW pay these players when they're not fit and then extend their contracts, then deliberately not pick them and then carry on paying them for a lot longer? Or in his opinion, does he not think they are ready for his team and a loan out would suit better?

Listen Eddie, I may not come up with the right way of putting my point across but you know exactly what I mean.
Gilmour won the EPL young player of the month in October. No mean feat. Yet he is still not deemed good enough to be recalled and sent out to a higher club. We accepted an offer to off load him.

That is a fact.

My point is we are once again letting 19/20 lads leave even when they have done very well on their first loan to a league club.

 

[Silent Blade]

Listen Eddie, I may not come up with the right way of putting my point across but you know exactly what I mean.
Gilmour won the EPL young player of the month in October. No mean feat. Yet he is still not deemed good enough to be recalled and sent out to a higher club. We accepted an offer to off load him.

That is a fact.

My point is we are once again letting 19/20 lads leave even when they have done very well on their first loan to a league club.

Has any higher club enquired about Gilmour?

 

[Baw Heid]

Go on Phil Lets see your report on the game. I always read your reports that I know you write as you see it and based on watching the lads progress through the ranks. It seems to me our Academy is now set up to make money for the club either by fees or sell on clauses. I have no problem with that. The loan arrangements get some game time and sets them up for mens football, if they can cope with it. It also helps them understand that although they have always wanted a career at The Lane it is not a problem to start their career at other grounds Callum Semple was voted MOTM not only in a general poll but also by a poll of the supporters who were at the game. It meant a lot to him to know you can build relations with fans every where if you put in the effort.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Go on Phil Lets see your report on the game. I always read your reports that I know you write as you see it and based on watching the lads progress through the ranks. It seems to me our Academy is now set up to make money for the club either by fees or sell on clauses. I have no problem with that. The loan arrangements get some game time and sets them up for mens football, if they can cope with it. It also helps them understand that although they have always wanted a career at The Lane it is not a problem to start their career at other grounds Callum Semple was voted MOTM not only in a general poll but also by a poll of the supporters who were at the game. It meant a lot to him to know you can build relations with fans every where if you put in the effort.

I hear you Brother Baw Heid
I will do a report for tomorrow. It was wet at Crewe. So, I couldn't make many notes. The report won't be worth waiting for in my opinion. But, it's a duty not a chore. I'll churn it out after I've been for the Norwich tickets in the morning.
It must be superb for Gilmour, Semple, Smith to win awards, MoMs, score goals in front of proper fans at proper clubs. If (ultimately) it can't happen for them at The Lane, there are lots of great clubs out there.

 

[Redhead]

Has any higher club enquired about Gilmour?

I have no idea Silent.

 

[Silent Blade]

I have no idea Silent.

It looks like no higher club enquired about him then?

 

[Redhead]

It looks like no higher club enquired about him then?

I told you I didn’t know. If you want to make that assumption but have no idea if it is true or not then fine.