The problem that's not a problem

[GreasyChipBeattie]

It seems the 2 main tactical options in modern football (save for the odd Stoke City type of long ball game) are:
1. Playing it from the back and through the thirds with possession football and
2. Hitting teams on the break with pace
It was interesting to read an interview with West Ham's Antonio about how, despite spending £180,000,000 in the summer, they are in a relegation fight rather than challenging the top 6 as they have done for the last couple of seasons.
The reason? He said they changed their tactics to try and emulate the likes of City and Liverpool and play possession football rather than hit teams on the break as before.
Ironically, according to him, teams are doing just that to West Ham, because they haven't managed to make the transition in styles effectively enough and the opposition are picking them off on the break.

This season we've seen the Mighty Blades excel at times and not do quite so well at others using both tactics, but if we're going to struggle, it's playing through the thirds.
To be successful at that, it needs to be done either at pace, with plenty of 'pass and move', as Hull showed at times last night (we would have been punished if they had owt decent up front) or with players skilful enough to do it in tight spaces and able to beat the 'press' with Man City being a great example.

I caught some of Burnley's game last night and they seem to be much more capable than us playing the 'City way' with confident close contact.
The problem for us is that when we are when pressed, we have one or two weak links resulting in plenty of times when attacks break down and we go backwards, or worse, heart-stopping moments in defence.
Bottom line is we don't do either very well consistently enough. Too many of our players struggle with close control to get us al the way up the pitch in tight spaces, and we don't move into free space quickly enough to move forward at pace through the thirds.

But, as the title says, it's a problem that's not a problem, considering where we are in the table, and the staggeringly good points return from recent/not so recent matches.
I think that's because we have more than our share of some real game-changing players like Ndiaye, McAtee, Berge.
We've won so many points this season when 'something special' has happened through them, that we simply have to keep hold of them for the run in.
Do this and we should coast to second place, and with a couple of decent results, including a win at Turf Moor, we might even sneak top spot.

 

[Blade58]

Interesting post GCB especially the bit about West Ham

Amazing how complicated we’ve made football become. When I was a lad it was pass and move. That was about as technical as it got. Defenders defended. Wingers had to get past the full back and centre forwards stuck it in the net. Job done

 

[BigBed]

Footballs like a box of chocolates........

 

[blade too long]

we do play some lovely pass and move stuff the first goal v Stoke is one of the reasons we are 2nd
we have quality in key areas and to put it bluntly have better players than most but fail to give them the credit they deserve
Burnley have won their last 4 by 1 goal and looked extremely vulnerable at the back at times

but like us are eeking out wins , by adapting in games and changing formation to nullify opponents

 

[Grey Blade]

I notice last night we nearly got caught out playing from the back twice in close succession and immediately reverted to the long ball.

No one talks about sweepers these days. I suppose they are CDMs now

 

[corner_flag]

It seems the 2 main tactical options in modern football (save for the odd Stoke City type of long ball game) are:
1. Playing it from the back and through the thirds with possession football and
2. Hitting teams on the break with pace
...

we are very susceptible to being hit on the break. We get away with it because 80:20 the Championship players miss or hit it straight at the goalie. Premier league players will convert 80:20

EBut, as the title says, it's a problem that's not a problem, considering where we are in the table,

It's not a problem now but it definitely will be bext season if we don't change anything

 

[BushBlade]

Interesting post GCB especially the bit about West Ham

Amazing how complicated we’ve made football become. When I was a lad it was pass and move. That was about as technical as it got. Defenders defended. Wingers had to get past the full back and centre forwards stuck it in the net. Job done

I didn’t realise you were over 100

Managers have been looking at tactics since someone decided to switch from 235 to WM, through the continental sweeper system, Ramsay’s 433 “wingless wonders” to the modern age of false nines and wingbacks. The biggest change has been that the money in the game and the advances in technology mean that games are recorded and rewatched and analysed by specialists and statisticians who’ve looked at every single aspect of the game and the most effective ways of playing it. The big clubs even have throw in coaches now.
Add to that the improvements of the playing surfaces, sports science, lighter balls and boots and it’s almost a different game to the one we played as kids but it started a long time ago, arguably in the 19th century when clubs started bringing in Scottish trainers who developed the “passing game” as opposed to the kick and rush of early English professional football.

 

[Blacksea]

West Brom were the architecs of their own downfall last night,after going ahead instead of keeping testing out the dodgy keeper and going forward with a high press,they fell back and let Burnley have all the space they needed to play out.
We dont have good enough passers to consistently play through a good high press,and unless McB is playing,we dont have anybody to hold the ball up if we choose to go long and wait for midfilders to get forward in support,which is what a lot of teams are using against us now.

 

[BushBlade]

The majority of teams that have overachieved in the PL have played a more solid, counterattacking game, like Burnley, Wolves and, of course, Leicester. It costs a lot of money, one way or the other, to play expansive football in the PL. Yeah, we managed it for six months before the cracks appeared and we found we couldn’t recruit the players capable of playing a very specific system, with the money we had available.
Unless the new owner is very wealthy, we’ll have to be more solid and grind wins out. When a less wealthy club tries to play like Man City or Liverpool, they tend to look like Southampton.

 

[RammyBlade]

Yes its interesting that for the first part of the season we had so much more possession than our opponents but recently we seem to have less possession but get the results. I dont know if its different players or something or a deliberate ploy by Hecky but it works anyway so who cares. Mind you my hearts in my mouth when JLT gets the ball from Wes at the back !!

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

When you look at the stats in United and Burnley games, the difference is usually stark

As an example, last night. Burnley 69% possession at home to a top 6 team. United 48% possession at home to a mid table team

What makes this difference? Burnley's midfield is usually Cork, Cullen and Brownhill. Good players no doubt, but you wouldn't assume such possession dominance would result from that trio

I think the defenders and wingers are very sharp players, which helps, but I think the main difference must be the coaching

Interested in the views of anyone who's seen more of Burnley than I have

 

[beatific blade]

I didn’t realise you were over 100

Managers have been looking at tactics since someone decided to switch from 235 to WM, through the continental sweeper system, Ramsay’s 433 “wingless wonders” to the modern age of false nines and wingbacks. The biggest change has been that the money in the game and the advances in technology mean that games are recorded and rewatched and analysed by specialists and statisticians who’ve looked at every single aspect of the game and the most effective ways of playing it. The big clubs even have throw in coaches now.
Add to that the improvements of the playing surfaces, sports science, lighter balls and boots and it’s almost a different game to the one we played as kids but it started a long time ago, arguably in the 19th century when clubs started bringing in Scottish trainers who developed the “passing game” as opposed to the kick and rush of early English professional football.

Looks like somebody’s read Inverting The Pyramid

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

My slight negative is when we're winning at HT then the second half seems to be dull. Slight better teams will punish us more for this but average teams arent. We just play out the half not really going for another goal.

 

[Houston_Blade]

The problem is when ‘passing through the thirds’ becomes ‘fucking about at the back’.

We did the latter a few times last night and it was the only way they’d have scored.

A few passes along the back before moving it to the wing backs, midfield or forwards is different to what we were doing at times.

 

[bertieblade]

Our best performances have been Burnley and Blackburn where we had to step up to the plate, work harder and impose our selves on the opposition.
We seem to take our foot off the gas when playing poor teams
Rotherham a prime example

 

[b1ade4life]

I'm all for the 80s approach of "GET IT IN THE FUCKING MIXER"

 

[BushBlade]

Looks like somebody’s read Inverting The Pyramid

No, I haven’t. I’ve probably read or heard stuff based on it though.

 

[El Volví]

It seems the 2 main tactical options in modern football (save for the odd Stoke City type of long ball game) are:
1. Playing it from the back and through the thirds with possession football and
2. Hitting teams on the break with pace
It was interesting to read an interview with West Ham's Antonio about how, despite spending £180,000,000 in the summer, they are in a relegation fight rather than challenging the top 6 as they have done for the last couple of seasons.
The reason? He said they changed their tactics to try and emulate the likes of City and Liverpool and play possession football rather than hit teams on the break as before.
Ironically, according to him, teams are doing just that to West Ham, because they haven't managed to make the transition in styles effectively enough and the opposition are picking them off on the break.

This season we've seen the Mighty Blades excel at times and not do quite so well at others using both tactics, but if we're going to struggle, it's playing through the thirds.
To be successful at that, it needs to be done either at pace, with plenty of 'pass and move', as Hull showed at times last night (we would have been punished if they had owt decent up front) or with players skilful enough to do it in tight spaces and able to beat the 'press' with Man City being a great example.

I caught some of Burnley's game last night and they seem to be much more capable than us playing the 'City way' with confident close contact.
The problem for us is that when we are when pressed, we have one or two weak links resulting in plenty of times when attacks break down and we go backwards, or worse, heart-stopping moments in defence.
Bottom line is we don't do either very well consistently enough. Too many of our players struggle with close control to get us al the way up the pitch in tight spaces, and we don't move into free space quickly enough to move forward at pace through the thirds.

But, as the title says, it's a problem that's not a problem, considering where we are in the table, and the staggeringly good points return from recent/not so recent matches.
I think that's because we have more than our share of some real game-changing players like Ndiaye, McAtee, Berge.
We've won so many points this season when 'something special' has happened through them, that we simply have to keep hold of them for the run in.
Do this and we should coast to second place, and with a couple of decent results, including a win at Turf Moor, we might even sneak top spot.

Funny isn't it when we often see misplaced passes yet we use this in training:

 

[Rufus Smalls]

No, I haven’t. I’ve probably read or heard stuff based on it though.

It’s a great book.

 

[BushBlade]

It’s a great book.

Yeah, just googled it. It’s something I probably should have read ages ago.

 

[Rufus Smalls]

Yeah, just googled it. It’s something I probably should have read ages ago.

You’ll not regret it.

Perfect reading on a sunbed on yer hols.

 

[Selly]

When you look at the stats in United and Burnley games, the difference is usually stark

As an example, last night. Burnley 69% possession at home to a top 6 team. United 48% possession at home to a mid table team

What makes this difference? Burnley's midfield is usually Cork, Cullen and Brownhill. Good players no doubt, but you wouldn't assume such possession dominance would result from that trio

Sure the midfield might be different to ours, but I would imagine the fact that they were trailing from the 7th minute, and didn't draw level until 75 mins will have played a part.

I'd be dissapointed in a similar situation, where the opposition sit back as WBA did, if we didn't have >60% possession.

 

[jt64]

we are very susceptible to being hit on the break. We get away with it because 80:20 the Championship players miss or hit it straight at the goalie. Premier league players will convert 80:20

Realise you've just pulled random numbers out of nowhere, but it does look a bit silly, players don't even convert penalties 80% of the time

 

[Snowflake]

It seems the 2 main tactical options in modern football (save for the odd Stoke City type of long ball game) are:
1. Playing it from the back and through the thirds with possession football and
2. Hitting teams on the break with pace
It was interesting to read an interview with West Ham's Antonio about how, despite spending £180,000,000 in the summer, they are in a relegation fight rather than challenging the top 6 as they have done for the last couple of seasons.
The reason? He said they changed their tactics to try and emulate the likes of City and Liverpool and play possession football rather than hit teams on the break as before.
Ironically, according to him, teams are doing just that to West Ham, because they haven't managed to make the transition in styles effectively enough and the opposition are picking them off on the break.

This season we've seen the Mighty Blades excel at times and not do quite so well at others using both tactics, but if we're going to struggle, it's playing through the thirds.
To be successful at that, it needs to be done either at pace, with plenty of 'pass and move', as Hull showed at times last night (we would have been punished if they had owt decent up front) or with players skilful enough to do it in tight spaces and able to beat the 'press' with Man City being a great example.

I caught some of Burnley's game last night and they seem to be much more capable than us playing the 'City way' with confident close contact.
The problem for us is that when we are when pressed, we have one or two weak links resulting in plenty of times when attacks break down and we go backwards, or worse, heart-stopping moments in defence.
Bottom line is we don't do either very well consistently enough. Too many of our players struggle with close control to get us al the way up the pitch in tight spaces, and we don't move into free space quickly enough to move forward at pace through the thirds.

But, as the title says, it's a problem that's not a problem, considering where we are in the table, and the staggeringly good points return from recent/not so recent matches.
I think that's because we have more than our share of some real game-changing players like Ndiaye, McAtee, Berge.
We've won so many points this season when 'something special' has happened through them, that we simply have to keep hold of them for the run in.
Do this and we should coast to second place, and with a couple of decent results, including a win at Turf Moor, we might even sneak top spot.

Thank goodness someone else sees it as I do ! I was beginning to think I had lost touch of reality.
I like us playing from the back, but the passing has to be quicker and players have to move into space to be ready to receive the ball when not already marked.

 

[GreasyChipBeattie]

I like us playing from the back, but the passing has to be quicker and players have to move into space to be ready to receive the ball when not already marked.

Kinell, I wish I hadn't taken so long getting my thoughts down.
That sums it all up perfectly!

 

[Blade56]

It seems the 2 main tactical options in modern football (save for the odd Stoke City type of long ball game) are:
1. Playing it from the back and through the thirds with possession football and
2. Hitting teams on the break with pace
It was interesting to read an interview with West Ham's Antonio about how, despite spending £180,000,000 in the summer, they are in a relegation fight rather than challenging the top 6 as they have done for the last couple of seasons.
The reason? He said they changed their tactics to try and emulate the likes of City and Liverpool and play possession football rather than hit teams on the break as before.
Ironically, according to him, teams are doing just that to West Ham, because they haven't managed to make the transition in styles effectively enough and the opposition are picking them off on the break.

This season we've seen the Mighty Blades excel at times and not do quite so well at others using both tactics, but if we're going to struggle, it's playing through the thirds.
To be successful at that, it needs to be done either at pace, with plenty of 'pass and move', as Hull showed at times last night (we would have been punished if they had owt decent up front) or with players skilful enough to do it in tight spaces and able to beat the 'press' with Man City being a great example.

I caught some of Burnley's game last night and they seem to be much more capable than us playing the 'City way' with confident close contact.
The problem for us is that when we are when pressed, we have one or two weak links resulting in plenty of times when attacks break down and we go backwards, or worse, heart-stopping moments in defence.
Bottom line is we don't do either very well consistently enough. Too many of our players struggle with close control to get us al the way up the pitch in tight spaces, and we don't move into free space quickly enough to move forward at pace through the thirds.

But, as the title says, it's a problem that's not a problem, considering where we are in the table, and the staggeringly good points return from recent/not so recent matches.
I think that's because we have more than our share of some real game-changing players like Ndiaye, McAtee, Berge.
We've won so many points this season when 'something special' has happened through them, that we simply have to keep hold of them for the run in.
Do this and we should coast to second place, and with a couple of decent results, including a win at Turf Moor, we might even sneak top spot.

3. Hoooooofball

 

[SwitchBLADE Smiles]

All the best teams are very good at changing it up when needed. If you try and out football the likes of Man City, you get dry bummed. If you try to out hoof Pulis' Stoke, you get dry bummed.

You have to be good at pretty much everything these days. I feel like we are (at least at Championship level) but we will need to strengthen if & when we get promoted.

 

[Servigliano]

Not wishing to tempt providence.
I don't think that our "defence" - and by that I mean when hanging on to a narrow lead we seem to go 5-4-1 or even 9-!, gets the credit it deserves.
We are very very good at it. How many proper chances does the opposition actually create?
I know it's bad for the nerves but we have the best defence in the league for a reason.

One thing that the stats. can never show is how good everyone engaged in defending actually is. I know the stats, show headers won/tackles won etc. but stats can never show how good a defender is at anticipating what the opposition is going to do with, and without the ball. Filling spaces ie simply stopping the other side from making the passes or runs they'd want, is an essential part of defending and we don't get proper recognition for that.

We've got last ditch defending down to a fine art and we're bloody good at it.
(Cue a 9 nil thrashing next match.....)

 

[NuddysGloves]

Not wishing to tempt providence.
I don't think that our "defence" - and by that I mean when hanging on to a narrow lead we seem to go 5-4-1 or even 9-!, gets the credit it deserves.
We are very very good at it. How many proper chances does the opposition actually create?
I know it's bad for the nerves but we have the best defence in the league for a reason.

One thing that the stats. can never show is how good everyone engaged in defending actually is. I know the stats, show headers won/tackles won etc. but stats can never show how good a defender is at anticipating what the opposition is going to do with, and without the ball. Filling spaces ie simply stopping the other side from making the passes or runs they'd want, is an essential part of defending and we don't get proper recognition for that.

We've got last ditch defending down to a fine art and we're bloody good at it.
(Cue a 9 nil thrashing next match.....)

Agree with everything except when you called it last ditch defending?

If we're very good at anticipating what's going to happen and then preventing it from happening by blocking the space etc then isn't that the opposite to last ditch defending?

I'd say we're very good at first ditch defending.

 

[Servigliano]

Agree with everything except when you called it last ditch defending?

If we're very good at anticipating what's going to happen and then preventing it from happening by blocking the space etc then isn't that the opposite to last ditch defending?

I'd say we're very good at first ditch defending.

Point taken. I should have said it looks like last ditch defending to me (objectively it isn't) mainly because I'm biting my nails off until the end!
Many might not know this but the defence is also pretty good at sledging the opposition. Cue Mr. Egan...