The players all clapped Clough and the post match interview

[Bladepicker]

As I have said before, Clough has absolutely no man management skills and bugger all charm. I can't really see much to commend the bloke. However, we have to give him some backing but when you look at the dross he has brought in : Coutts, Holt (the lightweight who I gather is to be signed permanently), McNulty, Higdon etc etc, we really do have to question not only his man management but also his selection techniques.

Hopefully by the start of the season we will have a goalie who can handle shots to his right and who actually communicates with his backs (Kenny?): a centre back who dominates and who can take the ball at the opposition (Maguire?); a midfielder that can actually hold on to the ball and develop play: a skipper who can actually motivate the team: and a forward to complement Done.

Hopefully, some of the above will be over 5 foot 8 and will be on board for the start of the season. If we are not in the auto spots by the end of November, I suspect Clough will be on his bike.

UTB

Paddy Kenny!? Really??

I think you may have just broken Pinchy 's 'Bladey Bladeness-ometer'

Deary me.

 

[Pinchy]

Paddy Kenny!? Really??

I think you may have just broken Pinchy 's 'Bladey Bladeness-ometer'

Deary me.

You got there just before me. People do themselves a disservice with absurd suggestions like that. It diminishes other points they make that might have some merit.

 

[Bladepicker]

Must say I've doubts about Mcnulty also...but do we need to build the team around the lad and sit him up top as 'the goalscorer'?
Or are those day's of a Keith Edwards type forward long gone..?

For me you can't afford to carry a striker with modern formations. Probably the best you can hope for is to bring him off the bench when we need a goal and are camped in someone's half, but unfortunately McNulty isn't the all round package to lead a line.

 

[Bladebri]

Why is NC to blame for us being in this division, one of the hardest to get out of as the premier is to staying in. Reading about all the players he has amassed and we say they are not good enough, so going up would have worked then, I think not, only 3 teams are good enough to go up we weren't by a whisper, some may argue that point, but this is my opinion. I want glory for the blades, but sometimes it's long in coming, I'm for NC taking us forward next season and will always applaud the team and club for their efforts.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

A youngster in his first season in English football. Has he really been that bad. Our 2nd top scorer and he's hardly played in the 2nd half of the season. Yes things need to improve but I think people are being overly harsh just to back up their views on Clough.

I'm with Bladepicker on this one. He doesn't fit the way we play - but then no-one apart from Davies does. He clearly knows where the goal is and scored for me the goal of the season away at Notts County (or was it Rochdale?) but atm doesn't have enough about him. Almost never retains possession, and when he's muscled off the ball generally throws his arms in the air looking for a free kick, which he doesn't get.

With his eye for goal he could do very well somewhere but maybe not with us in a 4-5-1.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

3-0 and the moment Nigel was thinking about his P45 and a how to tell the missus "we're moving"

View attachment 11672

You can read into this what you like. Who's jumping for joy 3-0 down? That's the way I felt - but at no time did I doubt we could get back into it.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

As I have said before, Clough has absolutely no man management skills and bugger all charm. I can't really see much to commend the bloke. However, we have to give him some backing but when you look at the dross he has brought in : Coutts, Holt (the lightweight who I gather is to be signed permanently), McNulty, Higdon etc etc, we really do have to question not only his man management but also his selection techniques.

Hopefully by the start of the season we will have a goalie who can handle shots to his right and who actually communicates with his backs (Kenny?): a centre back who dominates and who can take the ball at the opposition (Maguire?); a midfielder that can actually hold on to the ball and develop play: a skipper who can actually motivate the team: and a forward to complement Done.

Hopefully, some of the above will be over 5 foot 8 and will be on board for the start of the season. If we are not in the auto spots by the end of November, I suspect Clough will be on his bike.

UTB

Where to begin?

• Ex-players generally loyal to him. see Derby forum for details.
• Coutts revered by fans of former teams. Might be a star player. (Fingers crossed.) Contributed to 2 or 3 goals Monday.
• Holt scored 5 in 11 starts when we weren't getting any from MF

etc etc

 

[Cyprus Blade]

You can read into this what you like. Who's jumping for joy 3-0 down? That's the way I felt - but at no time did I doubt we could get back into it.

True, but NC is the Manager and it was his body language, totally defeated, sitting in the dug-out. Not trying to gee the players up or directing or making adjustments. Just slunk into the dug-out and buried his face like he just wanted it all to go away. I just thought to myself "He's given up and thinks he is out of a job".

But as you say it's down to indvidual interpretations.

 

[Bladesince59]

True, but NC is the Manager and it was his body language, totally defeated, sitting in the dug-out. Not trying to gee the players up or directing or making adjustments. Just slunk into the dug-out and buried his face like he just wanted it all to go away. I just thought to myself "He's given up and thinks he is out of a job".

But as you say it's down to indvidual interpretations.

All I saw was Clough, head in hands, sitting down for 70 minutes of the match.

 

[Revolution]

I'm with Bladepicker on this one. He doesn't fit the way we play - but then no-one apart from Davies does. He clearly knows where the goal is and scored for me the goal of the season away at Notts County (or was it Rochdale?) but atm doesn't have enough about him. Almost never retains possession, and when he's muscled off the ball generally throws his arms in the air looking for a free kick, which he doesn't get.

With his eye for goal he could do very well somewhere but maybe not with us in a 4-5-1.

If we are going to play 4-5-1 with a centre forward who scores at the rate Davies does, ie less often than McNulty, how are we going to score enough goals to get promoted?

 

[raul]

If we are going to play 4-5-1 with a centre forward who scores at the rate Davies does, ie less often than McNulty, how are we going to score enough goals to get promoted?

If that's what we're doing and retaining 8 or 9 of this season's first team, let's worry about matching this season's tally before contemplating finding another 20 plus.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

If we are going to play 4-5-1 with a centre forward who scores at the rate Davies does, ie less often than McNulty, how are we going to score enough goals to get promoted?

This is the way I see it. Hopefully others who know a bit more can chip in. 4-5-1 v 4-4-2 might even be worth its own thread. If there isn't one already. Foulkes Jr Sr is raving about 4-3-3 atm.

Depending on how you play it, the role of the centre forward in a 4-5-1 is not just, or even mainly, goalscoring. You link up play and spread the goals around the team. The 1 is in some sense a very advanced midfielder with no responsibility to recover.

Some teams have gone as far as 4-6-0. I think, with qualifications, this is how Bergen described us at Walsall and to a lesser extent Bristol City .

I'm no expert but my understanding is that the 1 was the role sometimes played by Fabregas for Barcelona. Hardly your typical centre forward. He'd chip in with goals but it was more about linking play.

I don't watch Division 1 but Man Utd's top scorers are: Rooney 14, Mata 10, van Persie 10.

I know they're 4th and teams above them have players who've scored 20, or even 30 but it's some indication. Thought tbh I don't know what system Man Utd play.

In Division 3 Bristol City's top scorers are 18, 14, 14. Which is surprising but again perhaps indicative of the fact that you can be very successful without a 20-goal striker.

We clearly need more goals and it'd be handy if Davies could chip in more - he missed two very costly sitters against Swindon at home, but, as always, the players we can attract will have good and bad points. On the plus Davies links very well with Done and he's a great team player. And he didn't cost anything in transfer fees (yet).

Who'd be a manager?

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

True, but NC is the Manager and it was his body language, totally defeated, sitting in the dug-out. Not trying to gee the players up or directing or making adjustments. Just slunk into the dug-out and buried his face like he just wanted it all to go away. I just thought to myself "He's given up and thinks he is out of a job".

But as you say it's down to indvidual interpretations.

But how did the players react at the moment the third went in? Hands on knees. Looking to the skies etc. Everyone's deflated at that moment. Of course. Show a picture of one of them and say they've given up. They hadn't. (And from where I was they pulled the fans round, not the other way.) You pull yourself together and get on with it.

Foulkes Jr Sr reckons that if the players were not motivated then they'd've given up on the game and in some sense Clough. They clearly didn't. That team spirit comes from somewhere.

Fwiw when I heard the team - and especially McGahey as sub, which meant no way Basham was going to be spending any time in defence - I predicted 5-4 either way. (I actually thought it might be 7-6 but who predicts that?) When we were 3-0 down it was a kick in the teeth but there were going to be goals all night long. We just had to get more than they did.

It was nothing like the Wolves play-off final. At 3-0 that was over.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

All I saw was Clough, head in hands, sitting down for 70 minutes of the match.

If Clough had his head in his hands for 70 minutes he missed a very exciting game.

 

[Revolution]

This is the way I see it. Hopefully others who know a bit more can chip in. 4-5-1 v 4-4-2 might even be worth its own thread. If there isn't one already. Foulkes Jr Sr is raving about 4-3-3 atm.

Depending on how you play it, the role of the centre forward in a 4-5-1 is not just, or even mainly, goalscoring. You link up play and spread the goals around the team. The 1 is in some sense a very advanced midfielder with no responsibility to recover.

Some teams have gone as far as 4-6-0. I think, with qualifications, this is how Bergen described us at Walsall and to a lesser extent Bristol City .

I'm no expert but my understanding is that the 1 was the role sometimes played by Fabregas for Barcelona. Hardly your typical centre forward. He'd chip in with goals but it was more about linking play.

I don't watch Division 1 but Man Utd's top scorers are: Rooney 14, Mata 10, van Persie 10.

I know they're 4th and teams above them have players who've scored 20, or even 30 but it's some indication. Thought tbh I don't know what system Man Utd play.

In Division 3 Bristol City's top scorers are 18, 14, 14. Which is surprising but again perhaps indicative of the fact that you can be very successful without a 20-goal striker.

We clearly need more goals and it'd be handy if Davies could chip in more - he missed two very costly sitters against Swindon at home, but, as always, the players we can attract will have good and bad points. On the plus Davies links very well with Done and he's a great team player. And he didn't cost anything in transfer fees (yet).

Who'd be a manager?

I've been banging on about this for years, but when I am told that the main role of the 1 man up top in 4-5-1 or the central forward in 4-3-3 is not goalscoring, I say "fine. Who's going to score them instead then?" This is one of the many areas where what works in the EPL with the best players in the country may not be right for league one.

The central midfielders on the books at the moment are not natural goalscorers. Last season Reed and Basham did not score in the league and Scougall scored once. Davies can link all day to these guys and they aren't going to get many goals. Baxter got 3 or 4 from open play if you want to count him as a central midfielder.

On the flanks, Murphy got 11 and that's terrific, but Flynn scored once only in the league. So hopefully there will be room for JCR at his expense.

To me, it still does not add up to enough goals to go up unless we truly do play 4-3-3 and have the likes of Done and Adams and McNulty further forward. Otherwise it's going to be a repeat of this season.

 

[Pinchy]

I've been banging on about this for years, but when I am told that the main role of the 1 man up top in 4-5-1 or the central forward in 4-3-3 is not goalscoring, I say "fine. Who's going to score them instead then?" This is one of the many areas where what works in the EPL with the best players in the country may not be right for league one.

The central midfielders on the books at the moment are not natural goalscorers. Last season Reed and Basham did not score in the league and Scougall scored once. Davies can link all day to these guys and they aren't going to get many goals. Baxter got 3 or 4 from open play if you want to count him as a central midfielder.

On the flanks, Murphy got 11 and that's terrific, but Flynn scored once only in the league. So hopefully there will be room for JCR at his expense.

To me, it still does not add up to enough goals to go up unless we truly do play 4-3-3 and have the likes of Done and Adams and McNulty further forward. Otherwise it's going to be a repeat of this season.

I'd have thought there's a great chance of Matt Done getting close to 25 in a full season with us? That would make a real difference.

I'm betting JCR's time is up. I agree that we need to replace Flynn. He has many admirable qualities but they can be utilised best at full-back, provided he grows a beard. It might be a big year for young Che who seems a genuinely exciting prospect.

 

[Revolution]

I'd have thought there's a great chance of Matt Done getting close to 25 in a full season with us? That would make a real difference.

I'm betting JCR's time is up. I agree that we need to replace Flynn. He has many admirable qualities but they can be utilised best at full-back, provided he grows a beard. It might be a big year for young Che who seems a genuinely exciting prospect.

I think that could be achieved by Done - he got 17 or 18 this year - if he stays injury free and if Clough actually picks him...

I fear you are right about JCR, which I think is a shame.

We have all seen enough from Adams to be optimistic that he can do well if given a game.

Compared to 12 months ago, our striking options look good - if we can actually get these players on the pitch.

 

[Pinchy]

I think that could be achieved by Done - he got 17 or 18 this year - if he stays injury free and if Clough actually picks him...

I fear you are right about JCR, which I think is a shame.

We have all seen enough from Adams to be optimistic that he can do well if given a game.

Compared to 12 months ago, our striking options look good - if we can actually get these players on the pitch.

I think we'll be trying very hard to bring in COG. We know Nigel, very much like Ol' Big Nose, never gives up on a target!

 

[Bladesince59]

If Clough had his head in his hands for 70 minutes he missed a very exciting game.

Were you actually there? If so didn't you notice.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

Were you actually there? If so didn't you notice.

Yes I was there, but didn't have much time to look at the dug-outs.

This head-in-hands stuff just comes across as agenda-driven manager-bashing.

 

[super_pig]

Mate, If Clough stays I really do hope that he proves the doubters wrong.

everyone here does mate
I was watching barca with their dream front three.. I can just imagine clough.. ooh cant get neymar and messi in the same team
we should play with a similar front three.. big striker supported by done and che

 

[Jon Bon]

True, but NC is the Manager and it was his body language, totally defeated, sitting in the dug-out. Not trying to gee the players up or directing or making adjustments. Just slunk into the dug-out and buried his face like he just wanted it all to go away. I just thought to myself "He's given up and thinks he is out of a job".

But as you say it's down to indvidual interpretations.

I think he looks like he's playing hide and seek with the Derby released list.

"97 - 98 - 99 - 100. Coming! Ready or not..."

 

[super_pig]

Some teams have gone as far as 4-6-0. I think, with qualifications, this is how Bergen described us at Walsall and to a lesser extent Bristol City .

I'm no expert but my understanding is that the 1 was the role sometimes played by Fabregas for Barcelona. Hardly your typical centre forward. He'd chip in with goals but it was more about linking play.

Who'd be a manager?

barca play 3 up front in a floating 3.. man utd play route 1 to fellaini

 

[backfour]

The fact that you refer to losing in two semi-finals as "cup success" says it all for me......we lost in a semi-final again last night, was that a fucking success too.....?

How many other teams did that then.if every body had done it you would have a point but they didnt.if we had won promotion some people would still not be happy,i dont get it

 

[Bladesince59]

Yes I was there, but didn't have much time to look at the dug-outs.

This head-in-hands stuff just comes across as agenda-driven manager-bashing.

Please yourself.

 

[Bladesince59]

Yes I was there, but didn't have much time to look at the dug-outs.

This head-in-hands stuff just comes across as agenda-driven manager-bashing.

 

[wizadry]

How many other teams did that then.if every body had done it you would have a point but they didnt.if we had won promotion some people would still not be happy,i dont get it

What wouldn't they be happy about? I don't get it.

 

[Cyprus Blade]

This head-in-hands stuff just comes across as agenda-driven manager-bashing.

This "agenda" stuff on these boards just comes over as sanctimonious. Saddened to see you use the expression WHF. Now for some light-hearted relief - what really happened in the dug-out.

 

[William Henry Foulkes]

This "agenda" stuff on these boards just comes over as sanctimonious. Saddened to see you use the expression WHF. Now for some light-hearted relief - what really happened in the dug-out.

View attachment 11678

Aisi there's no way you can reasonably draw the conclusion from the premises without an agenda. It's an idea looking for evidence.

We go 3-0 down manager puts head in hands therefore he's given up.

We go 3-0 down players sink to floor (or whatever) therefore...

There is some evidence of Clough's shortcomings. I might disagree but I can see the point. This doesn't fit that bill.

That's why I see it as agenda-driven.

 

[Hague Blade]

William Henry Foulkes You're certainly one of the most positive posters, and I enjoy reading your contributions - even though I'm of a far more pessimistic persuasion myself.

You write above that "There is some evidence of Clough's shortcomings" - if you'll permit me to style you King of Clappers, and in an attempt to start to try to breach the obvious gap between the two schools of thought on here, what would you see as those shortcomings ?