The Conundrum: we can't counter-attack every game.

[Woodwardfan]

When teams are not prepared to come out of defence we need to have a plan.

All credit to our manager for our success against "better teams" and great credit to our players who show their quality time after time against Premier League teams.

It's crazy really that our players look better against better players and teams, crazy and so frustrating.

This is a management and tactical issue. Our priority has to be the league and we need to resolve the problems which are still there despite the "respite" of the cup games.

Our manager has to treat League 1 teams with less respect. They are doing to us what we are doing to our higher rated cup opponents. In many ways counter-attacking is an easier system, but for home league games and at least 50% of away league games we need to be more positive. In the second half of the season we need more wins even to make the play-offs.

 

[alcoblade]

Replicate 2nd half performances in the first. Sod the "keep it tight" line. Get the ball through the middle, quicker. Get the wingers narrower.more often.

Attack, attack,attack, attack, attack!

UTB

 

[Silent Blade]

Tony Pulis was frustrated at WBA being too cautious against Gateshead early in the match yesterday so he left the directors box and went straight to the touchline telling his team to push up higher
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-tony-pulis-eager-8379363

 

[Lord Bos of Eckington.]

When teams are not prepared to come out of defence we need to have a plan.

All credit to our manager for our success against "better teams" and great credit to our players who show their quality time after time against Premier League teams.

It's crazy really that our players look better against better players and teams, crazy and so frustrating.

This is a management and tactical issue. Our priority has to be the league and we need to resolve the problems which are still there despite the "respite" of the cup games.

Our manager has to treat League 1 teams with less respect. They are doing to us what we are doing to our higher rated cup opponents. In many ways counter-attacking is an easier system, but for home league games and at least 50% of away league games we need to be more positive. In the second half of the season we need more wins even to make the play-offs.

Simple ,be more clinical ,cynical and thuggish. League 1 tactics for league 1 football, mixed with the cup football , and no respect for anyone.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

Tony Pulis was frustrated at WBA being too cautious against Gateshead early in the match yesterday so he left the directors box and went straight to the touchline telling his team to push up higher
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/west-brom-tony-pulis-eager-8379363

Wash your mouth after mentioning his name Silent. We must keep possession in our own half for a minimum of 50 percent of the time for the next decade.

We must cleanse ourselves of the Warnock era you know

 

[sheffielder]

People scream for new strikers all the time, however we do have McNuts. What we don't have is any drive in midfield. We need someone who can pick the game up by the scruff of the neck and drive us forward. * Doyle can play in the cup

Please need to put pressure on teams in league one, like we do to premier league teams.
We need to move the ball quicker, like we do against premier league teams.
We have better players than 80% of league one teams
We need to take chances against league one teams, because the likelihood is if we went toe to toe in every game, we would win most.

We need Wallace to stay fit or we need to splash some cash where this team badly needs it.

 

[Silent Blade]

Wash your mouth after mentioning his name Silent. We must keep possession in our own half for a minimum of 50 percent of the time for the next decade.

We must cleanse ourselves of the Warnock era you know

I have a lot of faith in Nige. Not saying that he should do the same as Pulis. When I watched Pulis yelling the instructions on MOTD last night, I was thinking that we should be a little more dynamic in home league matches

 

[Woodwardfan]

I have a lot of faith in Nige. Not saying that he should do the same as Pulis. When I watched Pulis yelling the instructions on MOTD last night, I was thinking that we should be a little more dynamic in home league matches

Silent - " a little"! just a tad understated maybe, pure class!

 

[ShockingBadBuy]

But we're not winning these cup games by counter-attacking ! We're winning them by outplaying better teams all over the park !

 

[Bladesway]

People scream for new strikers all the time, however we do have McNuts.

Been saying for months and perhaps years that it doesn't matter who you have in front of goal if you aren't getting the ball into the right areas. Look at the three goals yesterday and it became apparent to me how different things are in the league to the cup.

1st Goal : Brilliant build up, pulled their back line out of position and slipped the ball through to the forward to score.
2nd Goal : Poor defending and lucky because it bobbled around and we had the man in the right place at the right time
3rd Goal : Awful defending of the worst kind at a point at which the game was already dead

When you play someone with their back line pinned deep and their midfield packed you don't get the space that we had for the first goal. 2nd and 3rd goals I would suggest they are poor goals even at league one level and hence you will rarely score goals like that.

I think we need a striker but more importantly we need quality in delivery from out wide. If we get that then we will be in/around the opposition area more often. People will go white with horror but occasionally you need to have a battering ram to win the flicks and actually hold the ball up because League One football does have to go long every now and again. How the hell are you going to stretch a game if you don't pin a player up top to keep their back line stretched?

Higdon/Porter don't do that for me, and McNulty needs some help. If JCR was more consistent that would be nice but wingers at our level are generally in and out. I'd be lashing my money on a winger and big striker rather than on anything in the defence. Perhaps an enforcer midfielder in the middle when required as well.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I reckon we need two new strikers as a priority to cover injuries and suspensions in the run in and more importantly for the play-offs as seem likely. We always seem to go into the play-offs with only one striker and not a right good'un at that.

It's about strikers certainly but also perhaps more about getting more men in the final third and in the box by the time the ball goes in there. Plan A ( 4-5-1) works well for certain games, but it's more about making it Plan B most of the time surely.,

 

[Woodwardfan]

But we're not winning these cup games by counter-attacking ! We're winning them by outplaying better teams all over the park !

I disagree, fair enough.

I also think we are not winning games against lowly league 1 sides because we are still counter attacking in our own minds until we accept that the opposition are not going to come out of their bunkers and start to have a go in the last half hour of games.

Over-coaching is what I call it. Modern coaches instill this patience mantra into their teams and warn against the opposition catching their teams out if they over-commit. That's fine, but we are in league 1.

Sideways, slow-paced football holds no truck in league 1.

 

[Darthblade]

When teams are not prepared to come out of defence we need to have a plan.

All credit to our manager for our success against "better teams" and great credit to our players who show their quality time after time against Premier League teams.

It's crazy really that our players look better against better players and teams, crazy and so frustrating.

This is a management and tactical issue. Our priority has to be the league and we need to resolve the problems which are still there despite the "respite" of the cup games.

Our manager has to treat League 1 teams with less respect. They are doing to us what we are doing to our higher rated cup opponents. In many ways counter-attacking is an easier system, but for home league games and at least 50% of away league games we need to be more positive. In the second half of the season we need more wins even to make the play-offs.

Well ....... I suppose we could use some of the millions of pounds from last seasons and this seasons cup runs plus the large wedge from selling our best defender to invest in some players who CAN physically compete in this Division and outplay other teams, score some goals and win some games, which would propel us into the play-off places and give us the ability to actually compete in the play-offs instead of our usual rolling over and having our tummies tickled .....


Naaaah ...... that's a stupid idea, lets just spend nowt and carry on as we are, helping other teams to collect points.
UTB & FTP

 

[Woodwardfan]

Well ....... I suppose we could use some of the millions of pounds from last seasons and this seasons cup runs plus the large wedge from selling our best defender to invest in some players who CAN physically compete in this Division and outplay other teams, score some goals and win some games, which would propel us into the play-off places and give us the ability to actually compete in the play-offs instead of our usual rolling over and having our tummies tickled .....


Naaaah ...... that's a stupid idea, lets just spend nowt and carry on as we are, helping other teams to collect points.
UTB & FTP

Darth. In your own view how do we do it in the cup then? Same players.

 

[Bladesman]

Maybe we should start like Sampdoria have tonight.

 

[wizadry]

Maybe we should start like Sampdoria have tonight.

It didn't help them though mate,they got beat 3-0

 

[Bladesman]

It didn't help them though mate,they got beat 3-0

Aye not sure they are the team that have tried that before. I remember it happening a few months ago in the italian league and they won using that formation.

Not suggesting we actually try it, that would be far too adventurous for Clough.

 

[wizadry]

Aye not sure they are the team that have tried that before. I remember it happening a few months ago in the italian league and they won using that formation.

Not suggesting we actually try it, that would be far too adventurous for Clough.

I bet when they set up like that the other team go into a frenzy of panic!

 

[Bladesman]

I bet when they set up like that the other team go into a frenzy of panic!

I think the other team were more put off by the orange kit.

 

[wizadry]

I think the other team were more put off by the orange kit.

The ref is not expecting too much in the way of attack from the bomber formation as he stays in their half,he wasn't daft!

 

[Yewsman]

When teams are not prepared to come out of defence we need to have a plan.

All credit to our manager for our success against "better teams" and great credit to our players who show their quality time after time against Premier League teams.

It's crazy really that our players look better against better players and teams, crazy and so frustrating.

This is a management and tactical issue. Our priority has to be the league and we need to resolve the problems which are still there despite the "respite" of the cup games.

Our manager has to treat League 1 teams with less respect. They are doing to us what we are doing to our higher rated cup opponents. In many ways counter-attacking is an easier system, but for home league games and at least 50% of away league games we need to be more positive. In the second half of the season we need more wins even to make the play-offs.

I think we also suffer from a lack of physical presence. We are a very small team height wise and referees at League one level give our players little protection. Whilst QPR were a big physical side they did not bully us or out-muscle us like League 1 teams do. That is one reason we seem to play better against Premier League teams. Let's get some more muscle in in JTW.

 

[Darthblade]

Darth. In your own view how do we do it in the cup then? Same players.

Well ..... imho

Its more a case of why we cannot do it in this agricultural division that we have trapped ourselves in, I believe. We are far too lightweight, particularly in midfield for Division 1 and other sides have found us out. They know that referees will NOT give fouls against players like Doyle / Scougal / Baxter / Murphy / Flynn / Reed when they are bundled off the ball and we are bullied out of almost every league game by the size & strength of the opposition. Example being MKD at home.

We are pretty much the smallest side in the division I would suggest and I don't believe we can get away with playing any more than two of the players listed above in the team at any time, if we expect to realistically compete. Scougal in particular has been spectacularly ineffective this season due to this "size" issue. The teams above us in the League have a much more physical presence, whilst still retaining the ability to play attractive football eg Bristol C / MKD / Preston / Swindon and this is why three of them will be promoted this season and not us.

Now this shouldn't happen because a foul is a foul at whatever level you play, however, the referees are so crap at our level of football, that teams get away with bullying us every week. eg Scougal at Bradford ... have you EVER seen anything so outrageous as that wrestling throw ???

When we play "higher up" Clubs, they don't employ these type of tactics because you don't get away with it in the Premiership, hence we can compete with them more fairly. eg QPR made us look like midgets, however, they were not over-physical in their approach because they cannot get away with playing like that in the Prem.

That is my thought process for what it is worth and this is why I suggested we loan out baxter and Scougal to the Championship for the rest of the season and bring in two more "resolute" football playing CM's on loan, unless we can persuade Wallace to divorce the physio and play for us again !!

It gives me NO pleasure to expect us to be trapped in this crappy Division for a while yet, for the reasons above.
UTB & FTP

 

[Woodwardfan]

Well ..... imho

Its more a case of why we cannot do it in this agricultural division that we have trapped ourselves in, I believe. We are far too lightweight, particularly in midfield for Division 1 and other sides have found us out. They know that referees will NOT give fouls against players like Doyle / Scougal / Baxter / Murphy / Flynn / Reed when they are bundled off the ball and we are bullied out of almost every league game by the size & strength of the opposition. Example being MKD at home.

We are pretty much the smallest side in the division I would suggest and I don't believe we can get away with playing any more than two of the players listed above in the team at any time, if we expect to realistically compete. Scougal in particular has been spectacularly ineffective this season due to this "size" issue. The teams above us in the League have a much more physical presence, whilst still retaining the ability to play attractive football eg Bristol C / MKD / Preston / Swindon and this is why three of them will be promoted this season and not us.

Now this shouldn't happen because a foul is a foul at whatever level you play, however, the referees are so crap at our level of football, that teams get away with bullying us every week. eg Scougal at Bradford ... have you EVER seen anything so outrageous as that wrestling throw ???

When we play "higher up" Clubs, they don't employ these type of tactics because you don't get away with it in the Premiership, hence we can compete with them more fairly. eg QPR made us look like midgets, however, they were not over-physical in their approach because they cannot get away with playing like that in the Prem.

That is my thought process for what it is worth and this is why I suggested we loan out baxter and Scougal to the Championship for the rest of the season and bring in two more "resolute" football playing CM's on loan, unless we can persuade Wallace to divorce the physio and play for us again !!

It gives me NO pleasure to expect us to be trapped in this crappy Division for a while yet, for the reasons above.
UTB & FTP

Preston next Saturday will be a good yardstick to test your theory, I think they are a strong, physical side, not pretty but effective and pragmatic.

Does that mean essentially that Grayson knows full well what is needed for this division?

Your point about the minimal contact in the Prem is a good one and it's certainly different from our league.

 

[Darthblade]

Preston next Saturday will be a good yardstick to test your theory, I think they are a strong, physical side, not pretty but effective and pragmatic.

Does that mean essentially that Grayson knows full well what is needed for this division?

Your point about the minimal contact in the Prem is a good one and it's certainly different from our league.

Indeed Grayson DOES know what's needed to get out of D1 and they will be a big powerful, quick, physical side and will be in our faces and players like Scougal / Baxter etc will be simply pushed aside and the referee will ignore it all !!!

Without appropriate reinforcements, this will be another frustrating game for us, I fear, as will MKD and Swindon. We are currently sleepwalking into mid-table obscurity, despite the "on paper" quality of our big squad.
UTB & FTP

 

[itsinyerblood]

Reading the above, it made me reflect on the game against QPR. Their supporters commented that we 'intentionally chose' small players to bamboozle their giants. Personally I think we played as a unit, and it was this cohesion, plus several outstanding performances, that set the tone for the game. Rangers were second best throughout, and their physical presence counted for very little.

I'm not naive enough to consider the value that tough, rugged players (Stoke being a good example) can bring to a team. I just think it's an oversimplification to consider size as a negative. Man Utd, currently third in the Prem, have several players who might be regarded as being on the small side. What they have, apart from great skill, is a will and desire to compete. You think this counts for nothing? Imagine then our bouncer-like presence in Higdon, not exactly someone to instil the right type of on-field leadership that sets an example. Give me Reed, McNulty, or Scougall any day over someone of restricted movement like Higdon.

 

[Darthblade]

Reading the above, it made me reflect on the game against QPR. Their supporters commented that we 'intentionally chose' small players to bamboozle their giants. Personally I think we played as a unit, and it was this cohesion, plus several outstanding performances, that set the tone for the game. Rangers were second best throughout, and their physical presence counted for very little.

I'm not naive enough to consider the value that tough, rugged players (Stoke being a good example) can bring to a team. I just think it's an oversimplification to consider size as a negative. Man Utd, currently third in the Prem, have several players who might be regarded as being on the small side. What they have, apart from great skill, is a will and desire to compete. You think this counts for nothing? Imagine then our bouncer-like presence in Higdon, not exactly someone to instil the right type of on-field leadership that sets an example. Give me Reed, McNulty, or Scougall any day over someone of restricted movement like Higdon.

I understand what you're saying and I agree with you if we are talking about the Premiership. In the Prem, if you breath on a player and they go down a foul is given, so stature / strength is less of a major factor.

In the "agricultural" division we have trapped ourselves in, however, you could pick Scougal up and throw him and the referees are so crap that they will NOT give a foul. THAt is the problem we face, that is why we are bullied every week and that is why THIS squad will not get out of this Division ..... omho.

Size is not the only answer, Higdon is a good example ..... he's as mobile as my house and couldn't out-jump my car but what we need are players who CAN play good football, but are strong and have pace as well and preferably 6ft+ so they CAN look after themselves among the thugs of this crappy Division.

Regrettably, I do not see us carrying out major surgery to the squad and I reluctantly have resigned myself to the fact that we will all be having this same conversation next season.
UTB & FTP

 

[itsinyerblood]

I understand what you're saying and I agree with you if we are talking about the Premiership. In the Prem, if you breath on a player and they go down a foul is given, so stature / strength is less of a major factor.

In the "agricultural" division we have trapped ourselves in, however, you could pick Scougal up and throw him and the referees are so crap that they will NOT give a foul. THAt is the problem we face, that is why we are bullied every week and that is why THIS squad will not get out of this Division ..... omho.

Size is not the only answer, Higdon is a good example ..... he's as mobile as my house and couldn't out-jump my car but what we need are players who CAN play good football, but are strong and have pace as well and preferably 6ft+ so they CAN look after themselves among the thugs of this crappy Division.

Regrettably, I do not see us carrying out major surgery to the squad and I reluctantly have resigned myself to the fact that we will all be having this same conversation next season.
UTB & FTP

I hope not Darth, I'll try and over-compensate for your lack of optimism with a surplus of wonderment.....seriously, your point about Scargill was proved when we played at Bradford. There was the now notorious example of a defender actually wrestling the wee man to the ground in a throw. The ref was within decent viewing distance, yet he turned his back and the game continued. I recall various commentators asking the same question - surely that's as blatant a foul as you'll see anywhere?

Yes, I accept that a little/lot of muscle wouldn't harm, and you won't hear any complaints from myself if we manage to sign players who can combine physicality with good football brains and talent. I'll be only too happy to resume a conversation should we at last make that move and get into the Championship, finger's crossed uh? UTB

 

[Darthblade]

I hope not Darth, I'll try and over-compensate for your lack of optimism with a surplus of wonderment.....seriously, your point about Scargill was proved when we played at Bradford. There was the now notorious example of a defender actually wrestling the wee man to the ground in a throw. The ref was within decent viewing distance, yet he turned his back and the game continued. I recall various commentators asking the same question - surely that's as blatant a foul as you'll see anywhere?

Yes, I accept that a little/lot of muscle wouldn't harm, and you won't hear any complaints from myself if we manage to sign players who can combine physicality with good football brains and talent. I'll be only too happy to resume a conversation should we at last make that move and get into the Championship, finger's crossed uh? UTB

I really hope that, come June, I'm eating humble pie, apologising for my lack of optimism and partying with the rest of you guys.

Regrettably, I've been following the Blades for too long to believe that's likely. I'm not trying to be a doom & gloom merchant but I try to look at things logically, look at what isn't working and what needs to change. I'm afraid too much needs to change in this JTW to make it possible for us to compete in the play-offs, because we are likely ( IF we manage to scrape into 6th spot ) to be playing one from Bristol C / Swindon / MKD / Preston over two games. Its not going to happen with the current squad, we're just not strong / quick / prolific enough to get past any of them with the current squad.

IMHO, we need RB, Ch, 2x CM, CF to compete in the play-offs. Hope I'm wrong !!!
UTB & FTP