The big IF

[jt64]

They'd either adapt and embrace it, or have similar careers to the likes of Grealish, Wilshire, Ravel Morrison. Players with obvious unbelievable footballing talent but the inability to behave like professional athletes....

One of those is not like the others

 

[mancunianblade]

It was an easy convenient appointment aimed at appeasing a section of the fan base imo and I was 100% against it felt like a caretaker appointment m.

I’m happy to be wrong.

Towards the end of his first stint he lost sight the adaptability that set him and us on the road to success the inability to switch it up when we didn’t have the players was stubborn and and oversight.

Now he’s back to the original mindset and asling as that remains the case there is no one better to manage this football club.

 

[BiggerBladeThanThou]

Ridiculous question

Elaborate.

 

[ThirdGenBlade]

Yeah if you ignore the season we came 9th in the premier league and only focus on once in a life time season with no fans where we had a key part of that side missing....

A lot of people blame the no fans during Covid on our slide - but we beat Chelsea and Spurs 3-0 and 3-1 in 19/20 with no fans.

The thing that destroyed us in 2020/21 was an inability to replace JOC (a key part as you put it) while still trying to play the same way - so we could only really overlap down Bash's side and by then everybody had come to realise it.

If your system depends on some pretty unique abilities of individuals and you lose those individuals you are shafted. We're in a much better place now - we lost Blaster and Sydie stepped in - we will probably be without Vini - but Tom Davies looks more than ready to step in - other than height. The loss of Big Kieff meant there was no easy outball - but Tyrese immediately offered something different.

Flexible players and a flexible system is key. Our success in 19/20 was based on only conceding 39 goals. Our success this season is again based heavily on our defensive record, but we have just lost 2 key defenders and had effective ready replacements.

Keep that defence together, with a depth to cope with injuries and suspensions, and we are capable of being a sustainable middle third of Prem side.

UTB & FTP!

 

[moody1889]

I was one of his biggest critics because of his stubborness and refusal to change when it was clear things were not working which was a major factor in us being relegated.

But that said Wilder wasn't backed with anywhere near the amount needed to strengthen the team to ensure that we had a team capable of competing but the Prince didn't back Wilder and the Prince has to take the blame for that.

I just hope that if we do go up that the new owners back CW and that he can identify the right quality of player to build a team around that is capable of competing in the Premier League and establishing ourselves as a Premier League team.

 

[Lane Ender]

No question if he takes us up he stays and I was bang against him coming back proved me wrong this season is healing last

 

[Alex Cheeseright]

Like i say above, if we think chucking money at Wilders Black Book/Championship players is going to work, then we're in trouble....

We need to buy players AND invest in putting in place a system that drives sustainable growth. Free transfers from Coventry and Plymouth GK aren't long term solutions to PL success....

Correct, good for the Championship but the Prem, not a guarantee. There are some genuine gems in the Championship though and getting them with some quality from either abroad or Prem clubs is vital. It'll be a huge ask to keep us up, assuming we go up, and all fans will have little expectation of survival. Almost expect the worst hope for the best!!

 

[jt64]

Correct, good for the Championship but the Prem, not a guarantee. There are some genuine gems in the Championship though and getting them with some quality from either abroad or Prem clubs is vital. It'll be a huge ask to keep us up, assuming we go up, and all fans will have little expectation of survival. Almost expect the worst hope for the best!!

I mean this is the thing. It's relatively easy in our position to build a squad that can get out of the Championship - you just do what we've done and buy players from the top 5% of the Championship, augment it with loans, and crush the division. The problem comes when you realise that most of said player pool is there for a reason, and that if they were, or ever going to be, PL quality, they would be there already, or someone would have sniped us on the transfer. Then you go up, are hugely outclassed, and go back down. Question is if you learn anything in the process

 

[247Blade]

Great at the moment but who knows?

 

[Rufus Smalls]

I love Chris too, but I’m still skeptical of whether he has the skills to keep us up if promoted.

Having said that, it would be harsh to replace him if we did get into the Premiership. The stage we are at as a club (with the uncertainty of ownership and very tight finances), I think even Pep/Klopp would struggle to keep us up.

 

[Blade56]

With. Investment - no

Without investing yes

Would need Des Taylor in a role like DoF if we had investment. Would still be open to a young technical manager

 

[Old Programme seller]

Not even a question if any manager gets a team promoted to the apparent "best league in the world" then they deserve the chance to try and keep said team up. Be a massive stab in back if we let him take us up then pat him on back and say "Thanks mate! same time next time?"

Totally agree, he’ll have deserved another shot. Imagine the message it would send out if we just got rid of him my other point would be who would we want to come let’s face it we won’t have the money or heritage to play like Brazil so we could end up with a gamble.

 

[Keen Blade]

Completely agree we're starting to show beginnings of having systems in place
The HSBC site
A academy that's producing

We need a complex scouting system for more first team players ( hopefully des Taylor has improved this)

Have I missed the Des Taylor involvement being officially acknowledged , or are you itk on this ?

 

[Gavlar]

My worry is that he isn't good enough to manage in the prem. Now that may sounds harsh based on the 9th season finish, but we were also dogshit the following season and dogshit last season with largely his team and tactics. I suspect we will go up and get destroyed week in week out again and sadly he might resign again like last time.

I love the bloke for what he did for us getting us from league 1 to the prem, but I'm not sure he is good enough to keep us there.
I don't want him out but suspect that we will be awful if promoted.

 

[Keen Blade]

I never like to tempt fate but it's no good landing in the PL in a few months time and only then starting to try and overhaul the structure to emulate the 3 little Bs (Bournemouth , Brentford & Brighton).
3 clubs who have quite literally revolutionised themselves by having some investment and being smart.

Our prospective purchasers will no doubt be considering this issue (irrespective of whether promotion comes in May) because serious businessmen at their level know that failing to plan amounts to planning to fail.

Going back to 2016 , CW , with a finger in every pie , single-handedly raised his beloved club from the ashes to it's 21st century peak of 9th in the PL.

His achievement in so doing was simply remarkable.

But the business of football has become ever more complex and the breadth of responsibility which he assumed in 2016-21 now requires more than one man.
I think I'm right in saying that the idea of a DoF (either him or someone above him) was floated by the Prince with him and he rejected it.
And the Prince had to drop it , such was the need to keep Chris happy.

But Chris ended up very unhappy.

The main reason I want new owners is that unlike the Prince , they will not have the emotional history with CW.
They will hopefully be investing substantial £ for success and will have seen our failure in 20/21 & 23/24.
Taking that into account , I trust them to have researched and formulated ideas about structure.

It's not simply a question of keeping CW or not.
It's a question of how do you best structure the club for success.

Having arrived in the PL , there is a mountain to climb just to survive.
Optimum recruitment is crucial , as shown by the 3 little Bs.

We have managed to catch players on an upward trajectory in L1 & Championship , but Ramsdale apart , we have mainly failed at that in the PL.

My own view is that if you have foreign owners , the Team Manager (CW) cannot shoulder all the responsibility for recruitment & player development.

It equally can't be the case that he reports only to the local CEO (Bettis) who has a multitude of non-football responsibilities (to now include construction of a new training facility).

Imo , there has to be a DoF , someone with previous team-management , coaching & scouting-system experience. Someone to whom CW can turn for wise counsel and who can take from CW the day-to-day functions of scouting , recruitment , contracts etc.
Bettis cannot do this as well as all his other roles.

Of course CW would be constantly consulted by the DoF on recruitment - the DoF is not going to do it in isolation.
But CW will have to be content with this arrangement - if he rejects it , as he did previously , then I'm afraid he'll be on his way effectively through his own choice.

As for Steve Bettis , he not only has too many "football" responsibilities , but he has no local Director to offer guidance on his non-football roles.
I hope that the new owners would appoint a UK based Director to whom Steve can regularly report and from whom he can draw support.

Steve & Chris have worked tirelessly and performed wonders for the club , but if it is to become a proper top tier club in the 21st century , they can't be left to shoulder all the responsibility they had in 2016-21 because the business is more complex and progress even tougher.

 

[Pollingtonblade]

Even IF we get new owners we won't have a pot to piss in

 

[Blade56]

Even IF we get new owners we won't have a pot to piss in

 

[Charlieblade]

Would the Cat1 Academy make that much of a difference. We are attracting young talent because they can see the potential to actually play first team football. We also attract because we are successful and have talented youngsters.
Arblaster, Peck, Brooks, Seriki have all come through despite us not being Cat1

To answer your question, yes a Cat1 Academy would improve recruitment and retention of quality young prospects. Right now, it’s too easy for a senior Cat 1 Academy to poach prospects like Lankshear.
The only reason young players might see first team possibilities with us, is because the manager has no other option than to put our best prospects in the first team squad!

This is simply a lack of funding to develop a Cat 1 Academy at SUFC, and no finance available to buy ready made, EPL quality players to make the squad viable, and provide cover for injuries, suspensions and loss of form!

Wilder has already stated that he ‘hopes’ for at least two loan signings in the JTW, and even that is now doubtful. Even if he does get 2 on loan, that is just more shorttermism to get the current squad into the EPL.

Even with finance, the prospect of another poor season at the top remains a possibility. Even if Arblaster, and possibly one current academy player are deemed good enough, it’s still a gamble.
The much heralded ‘takeover’ is from an investment company. The word investment means they are looking to make money from the take over, eventually.

A Cat 1 Academy is essential to the long term aspirations of the club. It offers the club protection and helps with recruitment.

Personally I like seeing young players promoted from within, and Academy Status is a worthwhile investment for the club and the players who join it.
This season is exciting, but it could make or break them, depending where they are in their development cycle. Sadly, we are only doing it because we are skint!

 

[Keen Blade]

To get a Cat 1 Academy, the first team must move to Dore.
How will Dore ever get built if the Prince stays , when he's already said he doesn't wish to put any more of his own money into the club ?
Unless the Prince has a fundamental change of mind , we cannot make progress under his ownership.

I think I'm right in saying that expenditure on capital projects is not restricted by EFL P&S Rules.

If the takeover happens , I would hope the buyers have seen & like the plans
And would immediately get cracking with building Dore and attending to any other capital projects by virtue of investing their own money as seed capital to reach their undoubted objective of reaching & remaining in the PL.

 

[Melbourne Blade]

Wilder seems a very different man this year. Maybe after his time away and (challenging) experiences at Boro and Watford aswell as the ending to his last time here have actually taught him something? I hope people here realise that people are allowed to make mistakes - we only grow from our mistakes and what we learn from those experiences.

He seems hungry, stronger and more resilient this season. Maybe he's seen a psychologist or actually sat down and reflected on his management career so far and then applied those learnings.

It's a "stay" for me - however I'd expect the new owners to change a lot if we go up but only positively. Eg a solid scouting network, more emphasis on sports science and stat driven recruitment similar to how Brighton and Brentford have operated.

If we survive in the prem next year it should only lead to bigger and better things to establish ourselves.

 

[themaninblack]

Only on S24SU could somebody say “ It's relatively easy in our position to build a squad that can get out of the Championship “…
No it isn’t, a number of big clubs have been trying and failing for years. Who knows if we will go up or not but in my opinion CW has worked wonders, again, in turning the club around.

 

[Tony Currie]

Chris has to be given another chance - the failure in recruitment last time was due to the brief being get young top performing championship players who will have a sell on (not quite worked out with Brewster and McBurnie).

In order to keep up we need to spend on proven premiership players (aka Tom Davies) and we should be looking for 4 to 5 top players. There are some in this team who can step up be we need experience.

 

[georgebernardshaw]

Even IF we get new owners we won't have a pot to piss in

ITK or a wild stab in the dark?

 

[Ron_Justice]

we need to spend on proven premiership players.

I sincerely hope this is the last thing we try. I don't think we can offer big enough wages to players that are good enough, young enough and don't have some element of risk, meaning a potential financial loss overall.

Any 'proven premiership player' that we could afford, but would come to us next year will fall into one of two categories - on a downward slope looking for a last payday or someone that's stagnated in a bottom half team and it's looking for a move for personal reasons.

What we need is hungry, fresh, value for money quality that can grow with us. Not budget section known quantities.

 

[WalkelyFan]

“ It's relatively easy in our position to build a squad that can get out of the Championship “…

Well Leeds have spent North of £150 million trying so it can't be that easy.

And then:

"Farke said earlier this year it would take £150-£200 million in spending in the season after promotion to start the process of establishing Leeds as a long term Premier League club, and that was when we still had Summerville and Gray in the bank"

 

[nopigfansintown]

Something that is being overlooked is that a promotion this year would be more similar to the first promotion to the Prem, than an orthodox yo yo team promotion. Even if we do yo yo this year we don't have a yo yo club squad. We'd have done it despite our squad being decimated, not as a result of having many of the constituent parts of a Premier league squad in place (the usual way you bounce back). We'd essentially be setting ourselves up to yo yo more conventionally in two years, rather than realistically surviving next year (hopefully we'd then have more of the constituent parts in place). If we get promoted all the players from the first two prem years will have gone, except maybe Robbo (hardly a Prem level fee).

Only RND (academy), Anel (signed in Champ), T Davies, Hamer and Souza would remain from the last prem squad. Only four of those were brought in due to Prem ish level fees or wages (Davies, Anel, Hamer, Souza). Some would argue only Hamer.

If you can get your head around the above and calibrate your expectations accordingly, a 17 placed finish in the Prem would be an absolutely incredible achievement. Setting ourselves up to bounce back with more of the constituent parts of a Prem squad in the two years post relegation would be more realistic and, contrary to a lot of belief, a big a achievement.

 

[Bladezz]

Humour me.

100% guarantee the “let’s keep our powder dry” and “one game at a time” comments and that’s fair. But life would be pretty boring if we didn’t look ahead.

If you can’t look ahead, close the thread.

IF we go up, would you want Wilder in or out?

That sounds like a ridiculous question given his masterclass so far this season and his ability to galvanise new players and the youth to quickly become firm fan favourites, however, bar our first season back, he didn’t show he was up to too much in the Prem so would you trust him to lead us to Prem consolidation instead of the yo-yo club we seem to have become or would you opt for a new manager with a new budget, set of ideas etc.

I stopped reading at this sounds like a ridiculous question.

You are correct.

I think you would do well to find a manager who’s finished 9th in the PL at any club to manage us. But to be honest I’m interested who?

 

[Big.Dane.w]

I stopped reading at this sounds like a ridiculous question.

You are correct.

I think you would do well to find a manager who’s finished 9th in the PL at any club to manage us. But to be honest I’m interested who?

Any manager who is Available would come to us if the money was right, if we take all their own staff and give them the budget they’d want/need to spend.

Which is why we won’t.

 

[Bladezz]

Any manager who is Available would come to us if the money was right, if we take all their own staff and give them the budget they’d want/need to spend.

Which is why we won’t.

Can you name one who has achieved a 9th place finish or above? Who is available and realistically would come.

 

[Big.Dane.w]

Can you name one who has achieved a 9th place finish or above? Who is available and realistically would come.

We’re not in the market at the minute so it doesn’t matter who’s available, I’m saying if we got promoted as the op said there’s no reason a top manager wouldn’t come to us if we paid them correctly and give them the budget they’d want, money talks.