Thank god George Long did bad

[1danewhitehouse]

I'm amazed that we have gone through 5 or 6 managers, and Chris Wilder is the first one to have seen fit to buy a goalkeeper to replace Mark Howard or George Long.

I've seen enough quality keepers to be able to recognise a decent keeper and to be able to offer a subjective analysis on goalkeepers.

Mark Howard was usable as a lower league keeper but wasn't big enough to be commanding on crosses, and would often get beaten by long range efforts

George Long was tactically poor, poor on crosses and struggled to communicate with his defenders, I saw him play for the last 5 years for United and early I knew there was raw potential there, but he never kicked on, and I think if he wasn't going to make a substantial improvement over 100 games then he was never going to improve.

Simon Moore is a cut above both, a good shot stopper, commanding on crosses, his only I've seen is his kicking, he is also at an age where he can still improve a lot. From what I've seen so far, we have brought in a superb goalkeeper

Some valid comments in there but I can’t understand the logic that says 22 year old Long will never improve but 26 year old Moore is at an age where he can still improve a lot.


I think Long needs a move. Maybe to a lower league 1 or a league 2 club. A smaller club with lower expectations. From there, he might be able to develop his gam over the next 2-3 years and come again at this level. But it doesn’t look like it will happen for him here.

 

[Pinchy]

Seem to remember him finishing very strong at Motherwell with a MoM performance that saw them beat Rangers in the playoffs.


Morgs spoke very highly of Long at one of those “an evening with..” functions that I went to. Couldn’t praise him highly enough and went on and on about how he would be a top keeper although his emphasis was on “will be” rather than “is”.


I’m not sure I agree but he must have something to be held in such high regard.

Is that the "Morgs" who was given a coaching job to save money rather than on merit; who had a failed spell as caretaker manager including playing for a draw at Fucking Yeovil; and whose expressed football philosophy is "Nowt Fancy, Like Bassett"?

It is, isn't it? I'll stick to the evidence of my own eyes, I think.

As to it "not happening for George here" it's not a passive thing. It's actually up to him to make it happen. He can't and won't of course, because he's a very poor goalkeeper. No amount of bollocks from a Nowt Fancy coach at Chesterfield will alter that.

 

[Pinchy]

I think most regular watchers have worked out the flaws in George's game. The problem is that he doesn't seem to have done much over the last couple of seasons to address them. Maybe he would benefit from a fresh start somewhere else.

That said - wasn't it Wilder who offered him a contract? So he must have seen something (as he supposedly went to games as a supporter before he got the manager's job).

As you say Sheffsteel, George wan't helped by a shaky defence. When I think back, Paddy wasn't short on confidence, but would often stay rooted on his line for corners, leaving Morgs & co. to head it away. Set pieces have been a problem for 2-3 seasons.

That's because "Paddy" was nowhere near as good as some like to think...in truth he was a bomb scare far too often for comfort.

 

[Pinchy]

Long not good enough, Moore looks better and could prove to be good enough for a promotion winning side, ultimately we'll have to wait and see but early signs are good and for me it's one of many decisions CW has got right. CW isn't stubborn and that's the main thing I like about his management skills.

I think he is very stubborn about his basic principles of management, but flexible enough to accommodate, for example, Paul Coutts and Kieran Freeman when they begin to show that they "get it". Clearly De Juve didn't....

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I will be comfortable if we make it until Xmas without Moore getting injured as we need to bring in a decent back up keeper as well.

One poor challenge from an oposition forward and we only have Calamity George and a young kid in Ramsdale to choose from.

You are of course right with that fear - but there is every chance George "may" be a better keeper with a back 3 of EEL, Wright and O'Connell.

George has some issues - but they certainly haven't been help by the lack of decent centre halves and at some time, none at all.
If Collins is an example of a decent centre half then the pasting he got down at Gillingham must have been horrendous for the lad's confidence.

EEL looks as though he'll not lose much in the air, Wright is Mr cool (although looks a tad slow) and O'Connell will only get better playing alongside Wright.

George may do ok next time he gets a chance.

UTB

 

[wizadry]

I think he is very stubborn about his basic principles of management, but flexible enough to accommodate, for example, Paul Coutts and Kieran Freeman when they begin to show that they "get it". Clearly De Juve didn't....

No need for the last bit really, you spoilt the post. He's gone now so he doesn't matter to us, to a club in a higher league coincidently but there you go.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

That's because "Paddy" was nowhere near as good as some like to think...in truth he was a bomb scare far too often for comfort.

He was a good keeper. Not in the class of someone like Alan Kelly but still a good keeper. That’s why he played most of his career in the upper championship/lower prem. That was about his standard. Good shot stopper, good talker, very good sweeper, average on crosses.


He’s a long way better than anything we’ve had since.

 

[blade too long]

to play devils advocate
to be fair Mooreo is playing behind a much better back four than Longo ever had the privilege to play behind
His tenure in goal was like working for a bomb disposal unit

 

[sheffielder]

No need for the last bit really, you spoilt the post. He's gone now so he doesn't matter to us, to a club in a higher league coincidently but there you go.

Wizardy, meet Pinch

 

[LenTednTony]

I'm glad we've got Moore now but I'd feel much more comfortable if we got a new goalkeeping coach as well.

But surely it is all down to the manager? The coach can only coach what he has, in an attempt tp make it better than it is. It is down to the manager to say if that is actually good enough to pull on a shirt. The coach does not pick the team, sign the players or choose who he works with. The coach cannot be held responsible for a player being on the books, in the team or transfer listed. He can make recommendations but, as you and I know, recommendations from minions can be ignored, just like at work.

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

to play devils advocate
to be fair Mooreo is playing behind a much better back four than Longo ever had the privilege to play behind
His tenure in goal was like working for a bomb disposal unit

Totally disagree.
Long had Brayford when he was good,Maguire and Collins who at the time was very solid with Harry and Bomber in front of him.
Long was very well protected.

 

[Bladesthorpe]

to play devils advocate
to be fair Mooreo is playing behind a much better back four than Longo ever had the privilege to play behind
His tenure in goal was like working for a bomb disposal unit

Sorryo but Longo is shito.

 

[Sirius]

That’s an incredibly simplistic view. You make it sound like a level playing field. Wilder was able to start with an almost blank canvass. Adkins was carrying the weight of McEveley, Collins, McGahey, Howard, Alcock etc. round his neck when he came in. He brought Edgar and eventually Baptiste in. I’m sure he’d have done it sooner if he’d not been lumbered with so much dross on the wage bill.

I agree Dane, Adkins, and Wilder were both lumbered with dross when they were appointed. Wilder very quickly did something about it, Adkins did not

IMO he could and should have been brave enough like Wilder to rid us of the rubbish.

Instead he closed his eyes to the problem.
So far so good Mr Wilder.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I agree Dane, Adkins, and Wilder were both lumbered with dross when they were appointed. Wilder very quickly did something about it, Adkins did not

IMO he could and should have been brave enough like Wilder to rid us of the rubbish.

Instead he closed his eyes to the problem.
So far so good Mr Wilder.

Big difference is that Wilder had control of a retained list where 10 were out of contract and 4 loans were ending meaning at the drop of a hat he could bin 14 players at no cost to the club. Then bear in mind Adkins had already reduced the number ridding us of Alcock, Higdon, Dimaio, Khan, Collins etc. and Wilder's job was infinitely easier. I don't mean to do Wilder down at all and I'm encouraged by what I've seen of him so far but the circumstances of the respective managers were chalk and cheese.

 

[HeCanDoMagic]

Big difference is that Wilder had control of a retained list where 10 were out of contract and 4 loans were ending meaning at the drop of a hat he could bin 14 players at no cost to the club. Then bear in mind Adkins had already reduced the number ridding us of Alcock, Higdon, Dimaio, Khan, Collins etc. and Wilder's job was infinitely easier. I don't mean to do Wilder down at all and I'm encouraged by what I've seen of him so far but the circumstances of the respective managers were chalk and cheese.

But Adkins signed Conor Sammon.

Game, set and match.

 

[ThroughThinAndThinner]

But Adkins signed Conor Sammon.

Game, set and match.

I raise you a Dean Hammond...one of those Wilder had to get shut of.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

But Adkins signed Conor Sammon.

Game, set and match.

Touché

 

[blade too long]

Totally disagree.
Long had Brayford when he was good,Maguire and Collins who at the time was very solid with Harry and Bomber in front of him.
Long was very well protected.

oh so thats why we ran away with the league title
an impregnable defence

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

oh so thats why we ran away with the league title
an impregnable defence

Think you`ll find there were an awful lot of clean sheets that season. It`s also the case that Maguire and Collins were largely a very solid CB pairing. If you want to defend Long,knock yourself out,i`m just happy he dosen`t play in our first team,as I strongly suspect are the rest of it.

 

[blade too long]

Think you`ll find there were an awful lot of clean sheets that season. .

so your saying there was a lot of clean sheets that season
mmm
who was in goal

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

so your saying there was a lot of clean sheets that season
mmm
who was in goal

Long was in goal.
Protected by the back 4 I posted about above in response to someone saying he had no-one of ability in front of him.
I think the point of a thread is you read all the bits pertinent to your desired reply before banging away on your keyboard.

 

[blade too long]

Long was in goal.
Protected by the back 4 I posted about above in response to someone saying he had no-one of ability in front of him.
I think the point of a thread is you read all the bits pertinent to your desired reply before banging away on your keyboard.

well you seem intent on giving Long zero credit towards a lot of clean sheets
what your confirming is when he did have decent centre backs in front of him he kept the ball out
and
with Adkins ramshackle quartet he looked less assured

which I believe was my point

he pertinent bits being when theres a solid back 4 any keeper looks better

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

well you seem intent on giving Long zero credit towards a lot of clean sheets
what your confirming is when he did have decent centre backs in front of him he kept the ball out
and
with Adkins ramshackle quartet he looked less assured

which I believe was my point

he pertinent bits being when theres a solid back 4 any keeper looks better

And when there isn`t a poor keeper looks exactly what he is. Whereas a good one earns his corn.
Sadly Long didn`t. At all. Poor keeper. Glad he`s not an issue any more.

 

[Deadbat]

Anyone see that Northampton keeper tonight? We were interested in him in the summer allegedly. He managed to pick up a back pass leading to a goal and then a howler for the 3rd. Looked Long-esque

 

[seanbeenstattoo]

Anyone see that Northampton keeper tonight? We were interested in him in the summer allegedly. He managed to pick up a back pass leading to a goal and then a howler for the 3rd. Looked Long-esque

He`s George`s twin brother.
By another Mother.

 

[TC's Magic Boots]

You make the assumption that Darren Ward saw the flaws in Long's game and completely ignored them. For all we know, he was on the phone to the manager everyday insisting that Long wasn't ready.

We don't know whether or not the goalkeeper coaching was sufficient and we don't know Darren Ward's thoughts on Long are. Neither of which has stopped you coming to the baseless conclusion that it's the goalkeeping coach's fault.

I don't think Ward warrants criticism as he could complain daily about a player not being good enough but the manager is ultimately responsible. Ward is an excellent goalkeeping coach. The criticism of the coaching and academy staff in general is regarding the production of decent players for the first team, especially as we have been in League 1 for so long. If we can't produce them then in all honesty the size of the club and facilities should entice good youngsters here. It doesn't, so is it because the people running the academy have no relevant experience and therefore no pulling power when trying to get good young players here. Put it this way, if someone like Deano, Brown or Morgan was running the academy, their reputation would lead to parents wanting their kids here. If you have a unknown then you struggle. Just think we have to exploit everything we can in getting the best for the club.

 

[BushBlade]

I don't think Ward warrants criticism as he could complain daily about a player not being good enough but the manager is ultimately responsible. Ward is an excellent goalkeeping coach. The criticism of the coaching and academy staff in general is regarding the production of decent players for the first team, especially as we have been in League 1 for so long. If we can't produce them then in all honesty the size of the club and facilities should entice good youngsters here. It doesn't, so is it because the people running the academy have no relevant experience and therefore no pulling power when trying to get good young players here. Put it this way, if someone like Deano, Brown or Morgan was running the academy, their reputation would lead to parents wanting their kids here. If you have a unknown then you struggle. Just think we have to exploit everything we can in getting the best for the club.

The problem is EPP and the ability of clubs like Man U to nick our best kids for very little compensation.

We're Cat 2 now because we can't afford a Cat 1 academy while we're in L1.

That will affect us as much as the quality of coaching. If not more.

It's OK saying we should be producing kids good enough for L1 but we don't want to stay in L1. It can take two to three years to properly develop kids into reliable first teamers and having a team of reliable L1 players isn't that much use. We need players with the potential to be better than that. We need to get out of this league.

When we do, we can go back to being Cat 1, loan our prospects out to L1 clubs and benefit from the ones that do well at that level. Until then, we're just in a 'holding position' where we hope to sell a kid every season or so to fund the cost of the academy.

 

[TC's Magic Boots]

The problem is EPP and the ability of clubs like Man U to nick our best kids for very little compensation.

We're Cat 2 now because we can't afford a Cat 1 academy while we're in L1.

That will affect us as much as the quality of coaching. If not more.

It's OK saying we should be producing kids good enough for L1 but we don't want to stay in L1. It can take two to three years to properly develop kids into reliable first teamers and having a team of reliable L1 players isn't that much use. We need players with the potential to be better than that. We need to get out of this league.

When we do, we can go back to being Cat 1, loan our prospects out to L1 clubs and benefit from the ones that do well at that level. Until then, we're just in a 'holding position' where we hope to sell a kid every season or so to fund the cost of the academy.

You miss my point BB, while being stuck down here for the 6 seasons we haven't really produced enough players to fully take their place in the first team and for me that's unforgivable. Yes I agree that it would be foolhardy to produce players just good enough for League 1 but we haven't even done that !! Cat 1 or 2 shouldn't come into it as we should have enough good coaches to improve kids that have been at the club since 10 or 11 years old. It isn't happening, why ?

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

You miss my point BB, while being stuck down here for the 6 seasons we haven't really produced enough players to fully take their place in the first team and for me that's unforgivable. Yes I agree that it would be foolhardy to produce players just good enough for League 1 but we haven't even done that !! Cat 1 or 2 shouldn't come into it as we should have enough good coaches to improve kids that have been at the club since 10 or 11 years old. It isn't happening, why ?

On this subject I know two kids who have left our Academy to go over to Man City. Kids are 11/12 and from High Green but when it comes down to it, the money and prospects count!

 

[BushBlade]

You miss my point BB, while being stuck down here for the 6 seasons we haven't really produced enough players to fully take their place in the first team and for me that's unforgivable. Yes I agree that it would be foolhardy to produce players just good enough for League 1 but we haven't even done that !! Cat 1 or 2 shouldn't come into it as we should have enough good coaches to improve kids that have been at the club since 10 or 11 years old. It isn't happening, why ?

As said above, the better kids get poached before we can benefit.