SUFC: Series of Fans Forums.

[itsinyerblood]

I'm aware of fact that negotiations are necessary. Also that the players agent will be looking to persuade the club to come around to his way of thinking. He will be as confident as you in getting a result for his client.
I'd imagine the clubs offer is on the table. The contract negotiator on the players side then says we'll accept that but we want a buy out clause of x or its no deal because we'll get that elsewhere. You can be the best negotiator in the world but if the player digs his heels in there's nowhere to go.

The club looks to strengthen their position as does the player. In McDonalds position, the ball was always in his court as his career was on the way up and he would be well aware of his importance in the managers plans. As would his agent. Who may well be a better negotiator than you in some cases.

As for me thinking your "example" of the clubs actions with regard to contracts is "acceptable", give your head a shake. Do you believe it's something the club don't care about or are just incompetent and whatever the answer, how do you know? It's a ridiculous assertion that any club, even our own basket case, would deliberately adopt or maintain a culture that would have no financial benefit whatsoever.

Trouble is, the picture you paint suggests that there's no way incompetence could exist, as if by being employed by SUFC somehow excludes the possibility of this ever happening at SUFC? As if we've never employed managers, players, or other staff who simply aren't good enough, no, we'd never accept mediocrity would we, can't imagine that happening at the cathedral to aspirational football that is SUFC Just look at our current, supremely talented squad, knocking down the door to promotion in a way that puts to bed the lie that mediocrity exists at SUFC.....the truth is, neither you or I know, that's the fact, but just as you've asserted that you consider my take on this incorrect then I think you're being far too charitable towards the way we seem to sell at the wrong end of the scale, rather than get what other clubs seem to deliver when they sell their prized assets.

Just a small observation about your point about agents digging their heels in. Of course this happens, it's the way of the world. The gamble we take is whether we balance the effect a player might have on the team's performances against whether we feel we should expect a better return when the day arrives that they'll leave. Again, you or I can't know whether the club's negotiator rolled over like a happy puppy just because he's signed a talented player. The "it wouldn't have happened unless" scenario does have the ring of semi-plausibility, but I'd prefer that we didn't simply shrug our shoulders and opt for the lesser choice, otherwise talented players will continue to leave SUFC for derisory fees that don't come close to reflecting the true value of the player.

I'm sure the club hope they'll get the best deal possible, but the appearance of shooting themselves in the foot isn't a one-off I'm afraid. Let's hope that this is about to change with a new contract negotiator on board, then we can both appreciate the superb skills on display.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Release clauses are commonplace, and just another aspect of the negotiations aren't they?

The most high profile recent example is probably Suarez's £40m release clause with Arsenal then offering £40 000 001.

KM did mention in passing that an agent was/is currently trying to insert a release clause in a young player's contract against the player's will. (Anyone else confirm I heard this right?)

He made the further point that some agents will engineer moves - I think as the percentages the players and agents get are part of the way they (the player and the agent) acquire wealth.

Before everyone hates on agents the Secret Footballer writes that different agents have different priorities. What's being described here are the out and out mercenaries. Plenty will opt for first team football, or whatever their player is looking for.

(Incidentally the way I read it the Secret Footballer also has very clear opinions about Suarez being held by Liverpool, his biting antics, and getting the move to Barcelona.)

Hello WHF, I hope I've covered most of this in my other conversation with Mr Thornton. The aspects you refer to of how agents operate and what their motives might be are pretty well known already. You mention those agents who have a more sanguine attitude, the more of these the better, so it's the mercenary you refer to that is at the centre of my point. I don't doubt that clubs of various status get turned over time and again, and it may well happen to us in future. My point isn't to suggest that we can prevent this from happening, but to ensure that the club's interests aren't always sacrificed because a mercenary agent seems to have the supposed upper hand.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Trouble is, the picture you paint suggests that there's no way incompetence could exist, as if by being employed by SUFC somehow excludes the possibility of this ever happening at SUFC? As if we've never employed managers, players, or other staff who simply aren't good enough, no, we'd never accept mediocrity would we, can't imagine that happening at the cathedral to aspirational football that is SUFC Just look at our current, supremely talented squad, knocking down the door to promotion in a way that puts to bed the lie that mediocrity exists at SUFC.....the truth is, neither you or I know, that's the fact, but just as you've asserted that you consider my take on this incorrect then I think you're being far too charitable towards the way we seem to sell at the wrong end of the scale, rather than get what other clubs seem to deliver when they sell their prized assets.

Just a small observation about your point about agents digging their heels in. Of course this happens, it's the way of the world. The gamble we take is whether we balance the effect a player might have on the team's performances against whether we feel we should expect a better return when the day arrives that they'll leave. Again, you or I can't know whether the club's negotiator rolled over like a happy puppy just because he's signed a talented player. The "it wouldn't have happened unless" scenario does have the ring of semi-plausibility, but I'd prefer that we didn't simply shrug our shoulders and opt for the lesser choice, otherwise talented players will continue to leave SUFC for derisory fees that don't come close to reflecting the true value of the player.

I'm sure the club hope they'll get the best deal possible, but the appearance of shooting themselves in the foot isn't a one-off I'm afraid. Let's hope that this is about to change with a new contract negotiator on board, then we can both appreciate the superb skills on display.

Nowhere does it say that incompetence doesn't exist or even suggest it. You're the one saying that's the reason and offering your services as if you have all the answers.

The reality, as I've said, is that a player who's career appears to be on an upward spiral holds the aces. Anyone who can't see that lives in a dream world. Why do you think players want buy out clauses that suit them in the first place.

It's not forensic rocket science.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Nowhere does it say that incompetence doesn't exist or even suggest it. You're the one saying that's the reason and offering your services as if you have all the answers.

The reality, as I've said, is that a player who's career appears to be on an upward spiral holds the aces. Anyone who can't see that lives in a dream world. Why do you think players want buy out clauses that suit them in the first place.

It's not forensic rocket science.

Sean, do calm down, anyone would think you're an intense, myopic football fan who does little else than follow the Blades?

Of course I don't have all the answers. I do what everyone else does, I draw conclusions based part on fact and part on what I consider to be the actuality of the case.

Of course a player wants to better himself, just as you or I do. Implying I'm blind to that fact reveals a naivety that I didn't think you possessed.

By all means include a buy-out clause, I've no problem with that....the perfect parallel to how football has evolved is the film industry from the 1950's onwards. The status of film stars changed out of all recognition, they no longer signed to studios (something that doesn't happen in football), they commanded higher and higher fees, and the world of film-making found that it's prominence was no longer at the peak it once held. So it was and the film industry is still learning that the world changes.....so it applies to most other things, including football, and of course the worm has well and truly turned, and those servants who were once held to draconian contracts now have a much freer hand with which to challenge the authority of the clubs. Overall, probably a healthier situation, but of course we live in an age where people push the envelope to extremes, extremes that often challenge the ability of clubs to maintain a viable position. I wonder if Kevin Mc's agent forced Wolves to include a clause similar to the one SUFC were forced to include? I guess we'll never know, but if not what does that suggest about the roles of the negotiator at another club?

You're right it's far from rocket science, but to suggest it's a fait accompli is to imply that the detail must always be heavily weighed in a player's favour. As I've written elsewhere, we may well get turned over in future, and if it means we secure the services of a player who can positively influence the fortunes of the Blades I won't grumble (too much). Now Sean, shall we return to the general role of being critics from afar, neither of us anything other than windbags who are willing to put our heads above the parapet when we feel it's called for?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Sean, do calm down, anyone would think you're an intense, myopic football fan who does little else than follow the Blades?

Of course I don't have all the answers. I do what everyone else does, I draw conclusions based part on fact and part on what I consider to be the actuality of the case.

Of course a player wants to better himself, just as you or I do. Implying I'm blind to that fact reveals a naivety that I didn't think you possessed.

By all means include a buy-out clause, I've no problem with that....the perfect parallel to how football has evolved is the film industry from the 1950's onwards. The status of film stars changed out of all recognition, they no longer signed to studios (something that doesn't happen in football), they commanded higher and higher fees, and the world of film-making found that it's prominence was no longer at the peak it once held. So it was and the film industry is still learning that the world changes.....so it applies to most other things, including football, and of course the worm has well and truly turned, and those servants who were once held to draconian contracts now have a much freer hand with which to challenge the authority of the clubs. Overall, probably a healthier situation, but of course we live in an age where people push the envelope to extremes, extremes that often challenge the ability of clubs to maintain a viable position. I wonder if Kevin Mc's agent forced Wolves to include a clause similar to the one SUFC were forced to include? I guess we'll never know, but if not what does that suggest about the roles of the negotiator at another club?

You're right it's far from rocket science, but to suggest it's a fait accompli is to imply that the detail must always be heavily weighed in a player's favour. As I've written elsewhere, we may well get turned over in future, and if it means we secure the services of a player who can positively influence the fortunes of the Blades I won't grumble (too much). Now Sean, shall we return to the general role of being critics from afar, neither of us anything other than windbags who are willing to put our heads above the parapet when we feel it's called for?

You keep saying I've said things I havent. Only you know why. I didn't say always. I said when it involved a player on the up. There's a difference. That was the point I originally made, using McDonald as the example.

Thanks for the history lessen on how footballers - and film stars - lot has changed over the years. You learn something every day, even if it's only padding.

 

[Woodwardfan]

He did. But it's the implied because...

(1) he's not showed he's up to the job - I think this option is extremely unlikely as it's KM undermining Adkins' team in public

(2) he's not had chance because we're still clearing out - and that's frustrating

(3) he's spotted a few but they haven't agreed to come our way yet.

(4) other

Without wishing to further unfounded rumours, it could be that Sunjihi is right all along. Tonight we'll be mathematically out of the play-off race so we might find out.

It seems to have been a careless use of words no matter what his underlying view is on point he was making (badly)..

 

[itsinyerblood]

You keep saying I've said things I havent. Only you know why. I didn't say always. I said when it involved a player on the up. There's a difference. That was the point I originally made, using McDonald as the example.

Thanks for the history lessen on how footballers - and film stars - lot has changed over the years. You learn something every day, even if it's only padding.

Now don't get bitchy Sean, it's sure sign your annoyance is clouding your judgement.

Firstly, and just to show that one of us can show a little humility, if I've misquoted you, apologies, hope that's sufficient to soothe your nerve-ends.

Of course a player on the up will flex their muscles where a contract is under discussion, thanks for the spotlight on how these things work.

Final point, you mentioned that I keep saying things you say you haven't said. This suggests it's a constant, rather than occasional, repetition. Care to show me more than two or three examples of your assertion?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Now don't get bitchy Sean, it's sure sign your annoyance is clouding your judgement.

Firstly, and just to show that one of us can show a little humility, if I've misquoted you, apologies, hope that's sufficient to soothe your nerve-ends.

Of course a player on the up will flex their muscles where a contract is under discussion, thanks for the spotlight on how these things work.

Final point, you mentioned that I keep saying things you say you haven't said. This suggests it's a constant, rather than occasional, repetition. Care to show me more than two or three examples of your assertion?

Blades together, spoiling my thread

 

[itsinyerblood]

Blades together, spoiling my thread

Shurrup Woody .....just a couple of opinionated Blades dismissing one another....much like the South Stand on match day.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Now don't get bitchy Sean, it's sure sign your annoyance is clouding your judgement.

Firstly, and just to show that one of us can show a little humility, if I've misquoted you, apologies, hope that's sufficient to soothe your nerve-ends.

Of course a player on the up will flex their muscles where a contract is under discussion, thanks for the spotlight on how these things work.

Final point, you mentioned that I keep saying things you say you haven't said. This suggests it's a constant, rather than occasional, repetition. Care to show me more than two or three examples of your assertion?

Fourteen year olds use the " you're getting mad" get out.

I've pointed out two clear examples already. Semantics eh.

I'm guessing you believe your condescension sarcasm and digs have passed me by as well, but as far as the "spotlight" is concerned that was the gist, where as your points initially were that a) there was a culture of incompetence ( really?) that the club accepted and that you could do better. The facts are though that any player is likely to flex their muscles during contract negotiations, players on the up have a stronger case though. Or do the ones not doing so well just lie there and take it? You could help them, no?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Blades together, spoiling my thread

 

[Esablade]

Without wishing to further unfounded rumours, it could be that Sunjihi is right all along. Tonight we'll be mathematically out of the play-off race so we might find out.

It seems to have been a careless use of words no matter what his underlying view is on point he was making (badly)..

Well, to 'speculate wildly'...perhaps there is an option for either of the owners to pull the plug on Adkins upon failing to reach the play off's...perhaps one owner wants him in, the other out and they're having 'words'?

Like you say, it could be tonight dad

 

[Sean Thornton]

Best leave it there itsinyerblood, Blanche is getting upset

 

[itsinyerblood]

Fourteen year olds use the " you're getting mad" get out.

I've pointed out two clear examples already. Semantics eh.

I'm guessing you believe your condescension sarcasm and digs have passed me by as well, but as far as the "spotlight" is concerned that was the gist, where as your points initially were that a) there was a culture of incompetence ( really?) that the club accepted and that you could do better. The facts are though that any player is likely to flex their muscles during contract negotiations, players on the up have a stronger case though. Or do the ones not doing so well just lie there and take it? You could help them, no?

I'm inclined to say oh dear, but no doubt you'll find an academic explanation to dimiss this, as if that validates your opinion.

Listen, whether you agree or not isn't that important, at least to me. I've already suggested that I, like your good self, don't have all the answers (you must have read that?), but I do have extensive experience in contract negotiation, mainly in the music business. Maybe a football agreement would defeat me, we'll probably never know. What I do know is that your approach seems to suggest that there's little point in standing your ground because a player has most of the aces in his agent's hand. I already provided an answer to this, but presumably skating over the points you choose to ignore suits your line of argument. Conclusion; the next Blade star who leaves the club for a pittance should be waved off with placards and an enthusiastic round of applause, seems about right?

 

[Woodwardfan]

Hilda, I wish you'd stop calling me Blanche, the past is the past but those were the days weren't they. I used to love your Stan.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Hilda, I wish you'd stop calling me Blanche, the past is the past but those were the days weren't they. I used to love your Stan.

Good post.

 

[Woodwardfan]

I'm inclined to say oh dear, but no doubt you'll find an academic explanation to dimiss this, as if that validates your opinion.

Listen, whether you agree or not isn't that important, at least to me. I've already suggested that I, like your good self, don't have all the answers (you must have read that?), but I do have extensive experience in contract negotiation, mainly in the music business. Maybe a football agreement would defeat me, we'll probably never know. What I do know is that your approach seems to suggest that there's little point in standing your ground because a player has most of the aces in his agent's hand. I already provided an answer to this, but presumably skating over the points you choose to ignore suits your line of argument. Conclusion; the next Blade star who leaves the club for a pittance should be waved off with placards and an enthusiastic round of applause, seems about right?

Watch out itsinyer...., he'll start calling you by the name of a female character in Coronation street, it's in his locker and he uses it, be warned.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I'm inclined to say oh dear, but no doubt you'll find an academic explanation to dimiss this, as if that validates your opinion.

Listen, whether you agree or not isn't that important, at least to me. I've already suggested that I, like your good self, don't have all the answers (you must have read that?), but I do have extensive experience in contract negotiation, mainly in the music business. Maybe a football agreement would defeat me, we'll probably never know. What I do know is that your approach seems to suggest that there's little point in standing your ground because a player has most of the aces in his agent's hand. I already provided an answer to this, but presumably skating over the points you choose to ignore suits your line of argument. Conclusion; the next Blade star who leaves the club for a pittance should be waved off with placards and an enthusiastic round of applause, seems about right?

Again, not what I said x at least another two but I've been put on the naughty step so we'll just have to accept we see things differently. Certainly you see what I say in a way the words don't mean even when the are put in the simplest of terms. I draw my own conclusion as to why.

Btw I wasn't questioning your professional competence, just your view on this subject.

Anyway , back to the Woody WoodNitpicker show.......

UTB

 

[Sean Thornton]

Watch out itsinyer...., he'll start calling you by the name of a female character in Coronation street, it's in his locker and he uses it, be warned.

Reserved just for you Blanche. No other old women on the board.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Again, not what I said x at least another two but I've been put on the naughty step so we'll just have to accept we see things differently. Certainly you see what I say in a way the words don't mean even when the are put in the simplest of terms. I draw my own conclusion as to why.

Btw I wasn't questioning your professional competence, just your view on this subject.

Anyway , back to the Woody WoodNitpicker show.......

UTB

It would help if you provided the mis-quoted comments, no point using "Again, not what I said...", otherwise I've no idea what I'm supposed to have mis-quoted, just saying like.....but if all it amounts to are a couple of quotes it's hardly worth presenting as something far more severe. A case of over-egging I reckon.

UTB

 

[itsinyerblood]

Watch out itsinyer...., he'll start calling you by the name of a female character in Coronation street, it's in his locker and he uses it, be warned.

'tis all good in my world Woody, if names are being distributed, then Cunty is a monicker I'd warm to.....pinched it from a host at a private member's club who referred to anyone whose name she couldn't remember.

 

[Sean Thornton]

It would help if you provided the mis-quoted comments, no point using "Again, not what I said...", otherwise I've no idea what I'm supposed to have mis-quoted, just saying like.....but if all it amounts to are a couple of quotes it's hardly worth presenting as something far more severe. A case of over-egging I reckon.

UTB

"Conclusion; the next Blade star who leaves the club for a pittance should be waved off with placards and an enthusiastic round of applause, seems about right?"

There's one to go with the other two ive already pointed out that you've chosen to ignore. There's another one in that same post. Treat it as a word search and have some fun.

How about I call you Len-lite instead of Cunty? Much the same really. He deliberately misquotes as well, "severe" or not.

 

[itsinyerblood]

"Conclusion; the next Blade star who leaves the club for a pittance should be waved off with placards and an enthusiastic round of applause, seems about right?"

There's one to go with the other two ive already pointed out that you've chosen to ignore. There's another one in that same post. Treat it as a word search and have some fun.

How about I call you Len-lite instead of Cunty? Much the same really. He deliberately misquotes as well, "severe" or not.

Ah, not just a case of evading the question, but in one fell swoop I'm accused of "deliberately" misquoting...naughty boy and a tad immature. Nowt like Len, but feel free to apply whatever you feel emphasises your rather driven tactic if it suits.

Sean, somehow you've managed to continue a fairly minor point as if it's a cause worth stamping your feet about. Must admit to liking a driven man or woman, but sometimes driven can morph into pedantic, so as you please......I'll leave you to stamp away in the hope that exhaustion will eventually get the better of you. UTB

 

[Sean Thornton]

Ah, not just a case of evading the question, but in one fell swoop I'm accused of "deliberately" misquoting...naughty boy and a tad immature. Nowt like Len, but feel free to apply whatever you feel emphasises your rather driven tactic if it suits.

Sean, somehow you've managed to continue a fairly minor point as if it's a cause worth stamping your feet about. Must admit to liking a driven man or woman, but sometimes driven can morph into pedantic, so as you please......I'll leave you to stamp away in the hope that exhaustion will eventually get the better of you. UTB

As I said, fourteen years olds.....

You asked for examples, you got 'em, you're ignoring 'em and trying to be smart. Does it make you feel better?

 

[alcoblade]

As I said, fourteen years olds.....

You asked for examples, you got 'em, you're ignoring 'em and trying to be smart. Does it make you feel better?

You do realise you're fighting with the tactic of being bored into submission?

I don't think there's a poster on the forum who's used as many words as itsinyerblood, and said so little.

UTB

 

[Revolution]

Agree however if Ched had stayed in and played scrabble on that eventful night in the summer of 2011 instead of going out with Clayton, I'd have been very surprised if he was still at Sheff Utd come April 2012. By KM's own admission he was on huge money. You could argue his (and our) success that season in a twisted way was due to no other club wanting him due to the impending trial.

No, he'd have been there. He was garbage the year before, injured at the start of the season, and that year was the only one since relegation where McCabe didn't sell one of our good players.

 

[itsinyerblood]

As I said, fourteen years olds.....

You asked for examples, you got 'em, you're ignoring 'em and trying to be smart. Does it make you feel better?

Sean, for the third time, you provided no examples, all you've said is that they exist. I asked for more than three, to show that your point was a valid one, yet you're still badgering away as if repeating the same inconclusive waffle offers nothing else than a peek into your mindset.

There's nothing to feel better about, other than you seem incapable of answering my request. Now, for the sake of this thread, and for what genuinely matters, can you move on if you're unwilling to provide the examples I've asked for? No harm done, you've made your point, you've compared me to someone I don't know or wish to be compared to, so now give it a rest.....can you do that Sean? Or are you still brimming with indignation?

 

[Sean Thornton]

Sean, for the third time, you provided no examples, all you've said is that they exist. I asked for more than three, to show that your point was a valid one, yet you're still badgering away as if repeating the same inconclusive waffle offers nothing else than a peek into your mindset.

There's nothing to feel better about, other than you seem incapable of answering my request. Now, for the sake of this thread, and for what genuinely matters, can you move on if you're unwilling to provide the examples I've asked for? No harm done, you've made your point, you've compared me to someone I don't know or wish to be compared to, so now give it a rest.....can you do that Sean? Or are you still brimming with indignation?

zzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Woodwardfan]

zzzzzzzzzzzz

Even for you Hilda this has been a marathon. Why don't you have a change and go and check how many games Murphy has played lately?!!

Don't take it out on your lad though, promise

 

[Sean Thornton]

Even for you Hilda this has been a marathon. Why don't you have a change and go and check how many games Murphy has played lately?!!

Don't take it out on your lad though, promise

Others have taken to dispelling your fantasies and poor "use" of statistics. I just read the posts smile from a distance and wait for the corrections and your "move on" post these days Woody.