Ball Sup Blog... SUFC Academy U21 v Queens Park Rangers (a)

[Norwood's 6 iron]

Are there many local youngsters that have gone to other clubs that have been successful.
One that springs to mind is Gary Cahill who went to Villa, but was a Dronfield lad.
Are there many others, or are we picking up the cream of the local talent pool anyway.

 

[Hackey Blade]

The budget for the First Team Training / Academy may have been set. (Although I'm not sure it has). But the money has still to be found, and paid.
We haven't the money to buy Dore outright. We will be borrowing the money. It will have to be paid. From revenue. We haven't the money to upgrade to Cat 1 outright. We will have to borrow that money.

I happen to firmly believe a football club must move forward with infrastructure, ground, training facilities, academy, whatever. But, that comes at the expense of not being able to spend on transfers and wages. I'm comfortable with that. I'll take the hit to the First Team. For longer term sustainability and engagement.

But. Let's be honest. Fanbases want it all. Cat 1. State of the art facilities. New stands at The Lane. Big wages.

I'm with you on that ! it would be nice though just for once before i pop my clogs to actually have it all.

 

[Digs blade]

I'd be amazed if there's a group of fans who debate this more often, frequently and passionately than the Carrier Bag Firm. It is a major talking point at every Academy game we attend, on the way there, there, and on the way back.

I'm not creating the argument. The argument is already there. I'm interested in what others (on here) think, and why.

Is that really an argument - so they can test themselves? Don't we need evidence. Rather than a wishlist? In my experience, few fans know which clubs have switched to Cat 1 (and back again). And even fewer know what impact it has had on pathway progression. I know I don't. And I've looked.

The danger is - Cat 1 is a shiny thing, me want shiny.

Fair response mate and you know far more about this than me so I respect your opinion.

Still think I’ve a good reasoning though in that they need to test themselves. As others have said play against better opponents makes you a better player.

Putting sixes and eights past the opposition is great viewing but I’m not convinced it moves our players significantly forward in their development- remember the ultimate goal is about getting them first team ready.

Playing Man U and man city every week would be a better transition into first team football in my opinion

 

[Digs blade]

I’m not sure we’d necessarily pull in a higher level of player as others have said we already recruit exceptionally well and who would be be pinching players from? Blackburn and Derby aren’t taking players from us despite being Cat 1 because ultimately players and parents still play a huge part in deciding where kids play their football. And presumably there was a reason the player and family chose United in the first place and that’s still a factor later in their development and if they’re attracting interest from elsewhere then presumably their development is going well and players and families don’t want to disrupt that. We lose players to the big boys because they can make the kids life changing offers not only in footballing or even monetary terms but they also offer them private education in many cases. As well as housing and accommodation not just for the player but for their family.

We wouldn’t be that kind of a draw we’d be comparable to Derby, Blackburn and Leeds in terms of our pulling power. We’d get some benefit from it but it wouldn’t necessarily be transformative.

If we can afford it then it’s something I’d like to see happen but if it’s something we’d have to make sacrifices for elsewhere in the budget then it very much is a luxury

All fair points and I agree if we had to make sacrifices elsewhere then I’d be more neutral to the idea.

Genuine question, how come the running costs of academies cost so much money. I’d be interested in the breakdown

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I've tried to articulate my view of the U21s before. And failed. The following is not 100% true. There is some caricature. But I hope it gets my different view across.

I think of the U21s as a team I support. I also support Sheffield United who play in The Championship. I also support Hallam. And I also support England. But I think of them in isolation. I support the U21s in their own right. Not as a feeder club for Sheffield United.

I get enjoyment from travelling to U21 games. With friends sometimes. On me Jacks other times. To places I wouldn't normally go. To enjoy new grounds. New breweries. New pubs. To see players I've got some "emotional" investment in. Without contract hold outs. And one last payday. And we need five in the window.

Close out all the fucking noise. They're my team. And recently, they've been ripping up the league. And today they've bumped six. That puts joy back in things. Goals. Points. Medals. My team. Jake Wright Jnr. Diego. King Kurtis. Marcus Dewhurst. Marshall Francis Marshall. Callum Semple. Reece York. Parky. Harry de fucking Boyes. Dom.

Did they make it? Don't care. Playing for my team. In front of my eyes. And ripping it. Fucking brilliant.

I'm not a mug. That is a minority view. But I'd suggest it's a view that football fans will appreciate. My team. Winning the league. Year in. Year out.

Up the CBF.

 

[Yogi]

All fair points and I agree if we had to make sacrifices elsewhere then I’d be more neutral to the idea.

Genuine question, how come the running costs of academies cost so much money. I’d be interested in the breakdown

I don’t know but I’d make an educated guess that it’s comes down mainly to staff wages and the cost of maintaining the facilities. For Cat 1 they can’t share any of their facilities with the senior or women’s teams and some of the pitches need to be Desso. Keeping those pitches drained fertilised and growing especially during the winter using those lights units must be pretty expensive I’d imagine. Plus they can’t share their strength and conditioning or medical facilities so you’d assume you’d have to have separate staff for those facilities as well as the obvious coaches you’d see on a match day. You also need to pay for the kids to meet their education requirements.

 

[AWetFlannel]

All I hear is - keep disenchanted kids in the Academy who have decided they want to go and train with another team. Force them into red & white stripes. Whether they like it or not. I've never liked the sound of that Slavery Model.

Suppose part of the argument is that they will be disenchanted less easily if they play for a cat 1 academy.

But dunno about the debate in general, good points either way.

 

[Overthehills]

I, like the rest, would love us to have Cat 1 academy status…. However, one small fact just sprang to mind.

In having a Cat1 academy and facing the elite every week, we have to consider that we will be taking our fine young talent and dangling them in front of all the poachers every single week. We have performance analysts etc, but at the elite clubs they have it all in abundance even at academy level.

We are literally dangling our best young players in front of top scouts and analysts, if they like what they say…. What would stop them coming knocking?

 

[Overthehills]

All fair points and I agree if we had to make sacrifices elsewhere then I’d be more neutral to the idea.

Genuine question, how come the running costs of academies cost so much money. I’d be interested in the breakdown

In order to be an Elite Cat 1 academy you have to have more internal facilities as opposed to using external. You need to demonstrate a commitment towards education alongside football, you need to have medical and sports science facilities, you need to have a states of the art fitness and rehabilitation suites etc.

 

[Houston_Blade]

I, like the rest, would love us to have Cat 1 academy status…. However, one small fact just sprang to mind.

In having a Cat1 academy and facing the elite every week, we have to consider that we will be taking our fine young talent and dangling them in front of all the poachers every single week. We have performance analysts etc, but at the elite clubs they have it all in abundance even at academy level.

We are literally dangling our best young players in front of top scouts and analysts, if they like what they say…. What would stop them coming knocking?

They’ll know about all the good kids anyway.

Most of the kids will have been on the radar or numerous clubs since a young age.

 

[Overthehills]

They’ll know about all the good kids anyway.

Most of the kids will have been on the radar or numerous clubs since a young age.

They will indeed, but they haven’t got the ability at present to gauge their ability against their own talent, because we don’t play them. We give them a new comparison don’t we? It’s one thing watching us against lesser opposition, but to see them against their own and to see a potential upgrade?

 

[SouthportBlade]

There are arguments for, and against, trying to buy into Cat 1. But, I'm suggesting those arguments are the same whether you're the best team in PDL. Or the worst.

I'm pushing back on the argument that we "need" to buy Cat 1 because we are one of the best teams in Cat 2.

Does it not depend on your aims for the academy?

Simply to wash its own face?
To be a revenue stream?
To attract the best talent for the first team?
To give the academy players the best chance of “making it”?
Providing competitive youth football to reduce need to utilise the loan market?

Etc etc

Obviously we do a pretty good job on youth development, most notably in recent years. So you’d argue we don’t need to change a winning formula. Whilst we are selling players for millions of pounds or seeing them in the first team we are pretty good in my book.

The otherside is thrashing substandard team each week must to little to nothing to develop youngsters, whereas you’d argue putting yourself against better players would make you a better player. Hence why our ‘pathway’ requires utilising the loan market effectively. Something the u21 fan in you dislikes, if I recall correctly?

 

[Houston_Blade]

They will indeed, but they haven’t got the ability at present to gauge their ability against their own talent, because we don’t play them. We give them a new comparison don’t we? It’s one thing watching us against lesser opposition, but to see them against their own and to see a potential upgrade?

Fair point at the older age groups.

Lower down the age groups (below u18) we are allowed to play cat1 teams and we do regularly so they’ll have their eye on good kids from an early age. Us and the pigs play in the northern league up to u16/17 and it covers from Sheffield up to Newcastle in the East and Liverpool in the West. I have mates with kids in both Blades and Pigs academies and they’re always playing one of the top PL academies.

Weirdly some of the PL academies insist on playing strange formats that don’t correspond to their age group to try and develop the kids. My mates have been to various PL sides and they’ll have a 5 or 6 a side game going on alongside an 11 a side game just to test the kids in different formats. Then they’ll switch formats at half time.

A couple of years ago I was told by someone who would know that we have a pot of around £250k per year to ‘poach’ talent from lesser academies.

This would involved paying the agreed annual amount (used to be around £15k a year and increase as they get older) to the other club. Older kids on pro contracts are subject to tribunal or agreement of a fee.

 

[S64 Blade]

Are there many local youngsters that have gone to other clubs that have been successful.
One that springs to mind is Gary Cahill who went to Villa, but was a Dronfield lad.
Are there many others, or are we picking up the cream of the local talent pool anyway.

John Stones. Barnsley do have a decent set up though, or did.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

There are arguments for, and against, trying to buy into Cat 1. But, I'm suggesting those arguments are the same whether you're the best team in PDL. Or the worst.

I'm pushing back on the argument that we "need" to buy Cat 1 because we are one of the best teams in Cat 2.

If the arguments against are strong, how many of the top teams decide to down grade to Cat 2?

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

John Stones. Barnsley do have a decent set up though, or did.

Is it just coincidence that the area has produced more quality defenders ( Kyle Walker, John Stones, Harry Maguire, Gary Cahill) than midfield players or strikers?
Apart from Calvert Lewin I can't think of anyone else.
Perhaps Arblaster will be the next star.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

If the arguments against are strong, how many of the top teams decide to down grade to Cat 2?

I'm not sure I understand your question mate. The top teams, your Manchester City, Chelsea, Arsenal - they won't downgrade - because they can easily afford the cost of a Cat 1 Academy.

Am I missing your point?

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

I've tried to articulate my view of the U21s before. And failed. The following is not 100% true. There is some caricature. But I hope it gets my different view across.

I think of the U21s as a team I support. I also support Sheffield United who play in The Championship. I also support Hallam. And I also support England. But I think of them in isolation. I support the U21s in their own right. Not as a feeder club for Sheffield United.

I get enjoyment from travelling to U21 games. With friends sometimes. On me Jacks other times. To places I wouldn't normally go. To enjoy new grounds. New breweries. New pubs. To see players I've got some "emotional" investment in. Without contract hold outs. And one last payday. And we need five in the window.

Close out all the fucking noise. They're my team. And recently, they've been ripping up the league. And today they've bumped six. That puts joy back in things. Goals. Points. Medals. My team. Jake Wright Jnr. Diego. King Kurtis. Marcus Dewhurst. Marshall Francis Marshall. Callum Semple. Reece York. Parky. Harry de fucking Boyes. Dom.

Did they make it? Don't care. Playing for my team. In front of my eyes. And ripping it. Fucking brilliant.

I'm not a mug. That is a minority view. But I'd suggest it's a view that football fans will appreciate. My team. Winning the league. Year in. Year out.

Up the CBF.

Reece York, there's a name I forgot. Used to bag most weeks for u21s in midfield.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Reece York, there's a name I forgot. Used to bag most weeks for u21s in midfield.

Some of the CBF have been to see him play tonight.

 

[Greystones Blade]

Match report here

QPR 0-6 Under 21s - report

United's Under 21s continued their good form with a rampant 6-0 win at Loftus Road against QPR

www.sufc.co.uk

 

[Champagneblade]

I've tried to articulate my view of the U21s before. And failed. The following is not 100% true. There is some caricature. But I hope it gets my different view across.

I think of the U21s as a team I support. I also support Sheffield United who play in The Championship. I also support Hallam. And I also support England. But I think of them in isolation. I support the U21s in their own right. Not as a feeder club for Sheffield United.

I get enjoyment from travelling to U21 games. With friends sometimes. On me Jacks other times. To places I wouldn't normally go. To enjoy new grounds. New breweries. New pubs. To see players I've got some "emotional" investment in. Without contract hold outs. And one last payday. And we need five in the window.

Close out all the fucking noise. They're my team. And recently, they've been ripping up the league. And today they've bumped six. That puts joy back in things. Goals. Points. Medals. My team. Jake Wright Jnr. Diego. King Kurtis. Marcus Dewhurst. Marshall Francis Marshall. Callum Semple. Reece York. Parky. Harry de fucking Boyes. Dom.

Did they make it? Don't care. Playing for my team. In front of my eyes. And ripping it. Fucking brilliant.

I'm not a mug. That is a minority view. But I'd suggest it's a view that football fans will appreciate. My team. Winning the league. Year in. Year out.

Up the CBF.

I can respect that. It’s probably the last level to enjoy watching players play for the enjoyment factor before money-related decisions increase in significance and start to overshadow things.

Yes there will be some trams that bring in ringers on decent wages but it’s probably the closest you can get these days to pre-Jimmy Hill wage cap days and Sky TV money which removed the Blackpools and Burnleys of this world being able to win stuff.

 

[Champagneblade]

They’ll know about all the good kids anyway.

Most of the kids will have been on the radar or numerous clubs since a young age.

Yeah I also reckon nothing is secret anymore. But the big clubs probably are fine to keep a note on a player, see him playing for a Sheffield United u21s rather than not getting a game with them. They know they may have to let the odd one go and revisit later for a fee.

To counterbalance the step up in opposition, you’ve got to work on the basis that you commit to it fully I.e. your commitment to coaching at that level improves and your investment in scouting to bring in a wider net of players also does the same. Otherwise you’re not taking advantage of the benefits of Cat 1.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I'm not sure I understand your question mate. The top teams, your Manchester City, Chelsea, Arsenal - they won't downgrade - because they can easily afford the cost of a Cat 1 Academy.

The top teams want their youngsters competing against better players?

 

[Groucho Blade]

Is it just coincidence that the area has produced more quality defenders ( Kyle Walker, John Stones, Harry Maguire, Gary Cahill) than midfield players or strikers?
Apart from Calvert Lewin I can't think of anyone else.
Perhaps Arblaster will be the next star.

Have you forgotten Billy Sharp already…Alan Woodward, Mick Jones, Alan Birchenall, Dane Whitehouse??

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

The top teams want their youngsters competing against better players?

Manchester City want their youngsters competing against better players. And have an easy decision to make about the investment required to do that at Cat 1. Cash rich. No brainer.
Bradford City want their youngsters competing against better players. And have an easy decision to make about investment required to do that. Cash poor. No brainer.
All clubs want their youngsters competing against better players. But not all clubs have the money to make the investment required to do that.
Are we still at cross purposes?

 

[Yogi]

Are there many local youngsters that have gone to other clubs that have been successful.
One that springs to mind is Gary Cahill who went to Villa, but was a Dronfield lad.
Are there many others, or are we picking up the cream of the local talent pool anyway.

It depends what you mean by local. Derby have a strong presence in terms of academy recruitment around Chesterfield and so do United so we compete for players with them in that sense.

 

[Berkshire Blade]

Have you forgotten Billy Sharp already…Alan Woodward, Mick Jones, Alan Birchenall, Dane Whitehouse??

And the one recent pig to play, and win the premier league, was let go by Wednesday

 

[Lord Eddard Muir]

Who's the lad pictured on the homepage report who looks like a young David Tennant spotting his first Dalek

 

[Blade56]

I understand that posters feel we are a very good team at Professional Development Level. (But, remember we have only won the National Title once). And that we have recently won a few games by big scores.

But. Genuine question. What do posters want from playing at a higher level? What do you feel it achieves? What are you looking to gain from it? Remembering that it costs money.

I wonder whether there's just a knee jerk - we do well consistently, won some games, too good for this level, need to move up.

Don’t want our good youngsters snaffled off due to our poor facilities making them play at a level lower than their abilities. They need to be tested more to develop

 

[Yogi]

Who's the lad pictured on the homepage report who looks like a young David Tennant spotting his first Dalek

View attachment 192492

Looks like a terrified Owen Hampson to me