Ball Sup Blog... SUFC Academy U21 v Queens Park Rangers (a)

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Don’t want our good youngsters snaffled off due to our poor facilities making them play at a level lower than their abilities. They need to be tested more to develop

Is there any evidence that any youngsters have left due to our "poor facilities"? Testing them at a higher level costs money. Both initial costs. And ongoing costs. Do we feel youngsters would choose Blackburn or Reading over us because they have Cat 1 status.

There is still a feeling of - it's a shiny thing - on this thread.

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

Have you forgotten Billy Sharp already…Alan Woodward, Mick Jones, Alan Birchenall, Dane Whitehouse??

No I haven't, but they came through before academies were established.
Back in those days you had proper reserve teams playing adult football, it was the natural progression for the youngsters to play in the reserves before making the first team.
We're talking about the current set up of academies which is after those players you mentioned.

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

It depends what you mean by local. Derby have a strong presence in terms of academy recruitment around Chesterfield and so do United so we compete for players with them in that sense.

It makes sense that Derby would cover Chesterfield but do they have a reputation for bringing players through their academy? I don't know enough about them to say yes or no.
I think the point I was trying to make was that if I was a parent of a kid that was being scouted the obvious place for them to go is to the Lane, because of the recent success of players coming through.

 

[Yogi]

It makes sense that Derby would cover Chesterfield but do they have a reputation for bringing players through their academy? I don't know enough about them to say yes or no.
I think the point I was trying to make was that if I was a parent of a kid that was being scouted the obvious place for them to go is to the Lane, because of the recent success of players coming through.

Yeah Derby have a very good set up Cashin, Ebosele, Bird, Sibley, Knight, Buchanan, Bennet and of course our own Bogle and Lowe in recent years.

I know a couple of lads who’ve come through their system and had a rough time of it though very rough in one case but they do produce players and I hope have supported their more recent academy players better.

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

Have you forgotten Billy Sharp already…Alan Woodward, Mick Jones, Alan Birchenall, Dane Whitehouse??

One other point whilst we all love Billy Sharp, he never made it in the premier league or at international level.

 

[Bladeloyal]

Is there any evidence that any youngsters have left due to our "poor facilities"? Testing them at a higher level costs money. Both initial costs. And ongoing costs. Do we feel youngsters would choose Blackburn or Reading over us because they have Cat 1 status.

There is still a feeling of - it's a shiny thing - on this thread.

Blade56 hasn't ever used or been to the facilities at shirecliffe .another idiot on here.

 

[Groucho Blade]

No I haven't, but they came through before academies were established.
Back in those days you had proper reserve teams playing adult football, it was the natural progression for the youngsters to play in the reserves before making the first team.
We're talking about the current set up of academies which is after those players you mentioned.

Yes but your original question was
Is it just coincidence that the area has produced more quality defenders ( Kyle Walker, John Stones, Harry Maguire, Gary Cahill) than midfield players or strikers?
no mention of timescales, academies or reserve leagues… so it was very much open to interpretation.

 

[Groucho Blade]

One other point whilst we all love Billy Sharp, he never made it in the premier league or at international level.

Yes but your original question was

Is it just coincidence that the area has produced more quality defenders ( Kyle Walker, John Stones, Harry Maguire, Gary Cahill) than midfield players or strikers?

No mention of Premier League or internationals…so it was very much open to interpretation.

And I’ll argue with anybody who says that Billy Sharp wasn’t “quality”

 

[Norwood's 6 iron]

Yes but your original question was

Is it just coincidence that the area has produced more quality defenders ( Kyle Walker, John Stones, Harry Maguire, Gary Cahill) than midfield players or strikers?

No mention of Premier League or internationals…so it was very much open to interpretation.

And I’ll argue with anybody who says that Billy Sharp wasn’t “quality”

Ok fair point, I should have made it clearer. And I would never claim that Billy wasn't a quality player.
But players at premiership/international level (should I have included Jagielka?) the area has produced numerous defenders but little in the way of forwards or midfield players.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Are we still at cross purposes?

I didn't know we ever were
You did say there were arguments against Cat 1 but so far I've only seen financial.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I didn't know we ever were
You did say there were arguments against Cat 1 but so far I've only seen financial.

Ah yes. Same page. The arguments against Cat 1 will be almost exclusively financial I feel.

I dimly recall that some clubs have needed to consolidate sites. Separate first team base no longer fit for purpose. First team move into state of art Academy facilities alongside Academy. And no longer pass Cat 1 audit on an "overcrowded" basis. Emphasis on dimly.

But. Financial really.

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

Have many u18s left for better clubs? Can only think of Kian Breckin. I don't mean regulars in the u21s like Lankshear etc.

 

[HarryHaslam]

Have many u18s left for better clubs? Can only think of Kian Breckin. I don't mean regulars in the u21s like Lankshear etc.

Don’t think he was ever our player but could be wrong, he was at Rotherham but also went to train at others clubs to just get a feel of the place as everyone was after him but pretty sure he was never on our books although trained for a while.. There is Kylan Midwood at Man City and Amiri Ibrahimov at Man Utd are two that springs to mind.

 

[Yogi]

Think we had young Tai Sodje on our books at one point

 

[Lama]

All I hear is - keep disenchanted kids in the Academy who have decided they want to go and train with another team. Force them into red & white stripes. Whether they like it or not. I've never liked the sound of that Slavery Model.

Question: If a player wants to move from a CAT 1 academy elswehere, is that possible? Is the player literally prevented from doing so, or is it a matter of the "buying" club paying more compensation (relative to if they were poaching a player from say a CAT 2 academy)?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Question: If a player wants to move from a CAT 1 academy elswehere, is that possible? Is the player literally prevented from doing so, or is it a matter of the "buying" club paying more compensation (relative to if they were poaching a player from say a CAT 2 academy)?

No idea I'm afraid

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

In one of my earlier careers, before I moved into media relations for the Carrier Bag Firm, I was involved in measuring/assessing returns on UK Taxpayer/Government Spend/Investment on Overseas Aid Projects in Developing Countries.

The landscape for return on investment in a Category 1 Academy is rather complex.

Selling Academy players helps a Club's Financial Fair Play position. So you get complications like - only by selling Academy Player X could Manchester City buy Haaland.

And, if you bring Phil Foden through, you don't have to buy a Phil Foden.

Anyway. If you've got the inclination.

How do you assess the value of an Academy? - Analytics FC

Using player wages and transfer information we can assess the return on investment that clubs gain from spending on their academy set up

analyticsfc.co.uk

 

[Ndiayewillalwaysloveyou]

Don’t think he was ever our player but could be wrong, he was at Rotherham but also went to train at others clubs to just get a feel of the place as everyone was after him but pretty sure he was never on our books although trained for a while.. There is Kylan Midwood at Man City and Amiri Ibrahimov at Man Utd are two that springs to mind.

I've got mixed up with Midwood mate!

 

[Hilly]

Question: If a player wants to move from a CAT 1 academy elswehere, is that possible? Is the player literally prevented from doing so, or is it a matter of the "buying" club paying more compensation (relative to if they were poaching a player from say a CAT 2 academy)?

Exactly that. Under the EPPP Cat1 academies can sign Cat2 and lower lads for set fee's. Moves between Cat1 academies are handled more like 'transfers' in an open market.
But like Phil says in this thread, if a player wants to move, in all likelihood they will be gone, no matter what level an academy is at.
We may get a better fee.
There are though minimum levels of set compensation academies are entitled to at any level if a player wants to move.
Zak Brunt leaving Derby - I think- for non-league is one such example.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

Weerz thi blog Ball_Sup (Phil) ?

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Weerz thi blog Ball_Sup (Phil) ?

I presume you mean the one from Dublin. Which is the next in line obvs....
For QPR, watch this space... for a long time

(But, thanks for your support as well...)

When I'm in London for games, I have some pretty full on family commitments to deal with. There is little space for my real job of Blogging. We'll get there.

Maybe it'd be easier if Harry de Boyes wasn't Assisting, Scoring, MoMing and making me Swoon. Too much to praise.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I presume you mean the one from Dublin. Which is the next in line obvs....
For QPR, watch this space... for a long time

(But, thanks for your support as well...)

When I'm in London for games, I have some pretty full on family commitments to deal with. There is little space for my real job of Blogging. We'll get there.

Maybe it'd be easier if Harry de Boyes wasn't Assisting, Scoring, MoMing and making me Swoon. Too much to praise.

I like to read your Academy ones.
Boyes will be 23 in about 7 weeks. Him and Buyabu seem to have a few left backs ahead of them at the moment.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

🛍 Carrier Bag Firm
Sheffield United U21
Queen Park Rangers
SUFC 2024/25 Game
Classic CBF Triple Header
Boyes
Boyes
Boyes
I'm looking for a good time
But can he play in a four
My Football & Beer Blog
Read here

Harry Boyes IS The Reserves

Queens Park Rangers U21 0 v Sheffield United U21 6

open.substack.com

 

[EddieColquhoun]

🛍 Carrier Bag Firm
Sheffield United U21
Queen Park Rangers
SUFC 2024/25 Game
Classic CBF Triple Header
Boyes
Boyes
Boyes
I'm looking for a good time
But can he play in a four
My Football & Beer Blog
Read here

Harry Boyes IS The Reserves

Queens Park Rangers U21 0 v Sheffield United U21 6

open.substack.com

View attachment 192616

Del Geary had a great leap for headers. The first time I saw Waldron he reminded me of him.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Del Geary had a great leap for headers. The first time I saw Waldron he reminded me of him.

I had a bit of a result which showed my expert knowledge (giggling here) in a good light. As far as I could see, there was me. And two more CBF at the game. But just along from me there was a Civilian United Fan. He asked me about Waldron, who we'd got him from, how long he'd been playing etc.

He mentioned Jack, although strong and stocky, looked a little on the short side. I agreed, but said - you watch, he's down our side this half, he'll win every fucking header.

And he did, this United bloke was even loudly counting them off as the game went on.

 

[EddieColquhoun]

I had a bit of a result which showed my expert knowledge (giggling here) in a good light. As far as I could see, there was me. And two more CBF at the game. But just along from me there was a Civilian United Fan. He asked me about Waldron, who we'd got him from, how long he'd been playing etc.

He mentioned Jack, although strong and stocky, looked a little on the short side. I agreed, but said - you watch, he's down our side this half, he'll win every fucking header.

And he did, this United bloke was even loudly counting them off as the game went on.

I’m picturing you with a croc on top.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I forgot to mention something during this debate about investing in a Cat 1 Academy. In relation to "testing ourselves against better Academies". As well as the Premier League 2 game programme against other English Cat 1 Academies, there is also the Premier League International Cup for Cat 1 U21 Academies. And the chance to test ourselves against overseas Academies.

Essentially, all games are played in England.

This season,

Nottingham Forest
Reading
Wolverhampton Wanderers
Tottenham Hotspur
Sunderland
Middlesbrough
West Ham United
Blackburn Rovers
Fulham
Manchester United
Norwich City
Liverpool
Crystal Palace
Brighton & Hove Albion
Chelsea
Southampton

Are the English clubs entered

Valencia
Ajax
Dinamo Zagreb
Monaco
Borussia Moenchengladbach
Olympic Lyonnaise
Athletico Madrid
Benfica
PSV Eindhoven
Herta Berlin
Sparta Prague
Anderlecht
Sporting Lisbon
RB Leipzig
Nordsjælland
Real Sociedad

The overseas

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

And another thing....

We have a little "geographical difficulty" here in Sheffield. We do not have a very local, higher level non league team, who have a grass pitch which an U21 Academy team can use for home games. Since 2010, we've basically used Stocksbridge Park Steels, Chesterfield and (including this season) York City. The odd game has gone to Scunthorpe United and Alfreton Town.

Handsworth, Staveley, Worksop (for eg) are ruled out as they have plastic pitches.

It's not obvious what United can do about this longer term. It is very difficult to "dictate" to other clubs - for instance Chesterfield. If they don't want us, we can't do much about it. So we've ended up casting ever wider. York just sounds ridiculous for a club from South Yorkshire.

It's not "our fault" - but local non league geography doesn't work in our favour.

 

[Antarctic Monkey]

I immediately sang the next couple of lines
Too many halos, not enough heroes
Coming up with good
So you thought you like to see the healed..

What an album...can listen front to back anytime.

 

[S64 Blade]

And another thing....

We have a little "geographical difficulty" here in Sheffield. We do not have a very local, higher level non league team, who have a grass pitch which an U21 Academy team can use for home games. Since 2010, we've basically used Stocksbridge Park Steels, Chesterfield and (including this season) York City. The odd game has gone to Scunthorpe United and Alfreton Town.

Handsworth, Staveley, Worksop (for eg) are ruled out as they have plastic pitches.

It's not obvious what United can do about this longer term. It is very difficult to "dictate" to other clubs - for instance Chesterfield. If they don't want us, we can't do much about it. So we've ended up casting ever wider. York just sounds ridiculous for a club from South Yorkshire.

It's not "our fault" - but local non league geography doesn't work in our favour.

Could we use the Olympic Legacy Park stadium? I’ve no idea on the pitches there and I am aware that it is used for rugby, too. Which could be a problem.

I know Scarborough Group were behind it, but are they the operator? Could be a barrier, if so, whilst the Prince is the owner.

Maybe we have to just hope that Sheffield FC finally build somewhere of their own.