Ball Sup Blog... SUFC Academy U21 v Queens Park Rangers (a)

[Fade2Blade]

I'm guessing the answer is yes, but was the game as one sided as the score line suggests?

I rarely get to see the u21 games, but would in interested in why we seem so much better than the other teams so far. I know we've been one of the better Cat 2 teams for a long time but SUFC and Charlton seem light years ahead so far this season.

Dominant for large periods, tighter first half, great desire to win ball back, defense looked sound, took goals well. Had a shape, and as QPR commentator said 'relentless pressure' at times. I think QPR had a young squad, but it was a great performance.

 

[Hackey Blade]

I'm guessing the answer is yes, but was the game as one sided as the score line suggests?

I rarely get to see the u21 games, but would in interested in why we seem so much better than the other teams so far. I know we've been one of the better Cat 2 teams for a long time but SUFC and Charlton seem light years ahead so far this season.

1st half, Utd started like a train on fire but by half time it became an evenly fought contest, then the 2nd half started and within 10 minutes it was good-bye literally

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I understand that posters feel we are a very good team at Professional Development Level. (But, remember we have only won the National Title once). And that we have recently won a few games by big scores.

But. Genuine question. What do posters want from playing at a higher level? What do you feel it achieves? What are you looking to gain from it? Remembering that it costs money.

I wonder whether there's just a knee jerk - we do well consistently, won some games, too good for this level, need to move up.

 

[Westran]

I understand that posters feel we are a very good team at Professional Development Level. (But, remember we have only won the National Title once). And that we have recently won a few games by big scores.

But. Genuine question. What do posters want from playing at a higher level? What do you feel it achieves? What are you looking to gain from it? Remembering that it costs money.

I wonder whether there's just a knee jerk - we do well consistently, won some games, too good for this level, need to move up.

I don't know enough about it all, except from your blogs really. But to answer your question from someone with next to no knowledge, I would hope it would allow us to attract a higher standard of talent and to hold on to it easier, as well as just giving us better facilities to accommodate player improvement.

 

[Hackey Blade]

I understand that posters feel we are a very good team at Professional Development Level. (But, remember we have only won the National Title once). And that we have recently won a few games by big scores.

But. Genuine question. What do posters want from playing at a higher level? What do you feel it achieves? What are you looking to gain from it? Remembering that it costs money.

I wonder whether there's just a knee jerk - we do well consistently, won some games, too good for this level, need to move up.

My take on it would be we should in theory become better playing against better players every week, albeit we may well lose some games but that also should help us improve.

 

[Silent Blade]

But. Genuine question. What do posters want from playing at a higher level? What do you feel it achieves? What are you looking to gain from it? Remembering that it costs money.

To stop Category 1 Academies nicking our best players from 8 to 24

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

I don't know enough about it all, except from your blogs really. But to answer your question from someone with next to no knowledge, I would hope it would allow us to attract a higher standard of talent and to hold on to it easier, as well as just giving us better facilities to accommodate player improvement.

Thanks
I get that. That's a longer term investment strategy. But that would be the case whether we're the best team in the PDL. Or the worst.

I'm querying the - we're winning games, we need to be in Cat 1 - posters.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

My take on it would be we should in theory become better playing against better players every week, albeit we may well lose some games but that also should help us improve.

Most clubs moving from Cat 2 to Cat 1 cite the improved programme of games as a key reason. Which is your point.

 

[S64 Blade]

I understand that posters feel we are a very good team at Professional Development Level. (But, remember we have only won the National Title once). And that we have recently won a few games by big scores.

But. Genuine question. What do posters want from playing at a higher level? What do you feel it achieves? What are you looking to gain from it? Remembering that it costs money.

I wonder whether there's just a knee jerk - we do well consistently, won some games, too good for this level, need to move up.

I’d say, (1) test the players at a higher quality level. Logic suggests playing against more difficult opponents regularly, makes you better (2) being able to retain talent more easily and (3) a more attractive prospect to attract talent (which we already seem to be very good at).

 

[Hackey Blade]

I understand that posters feel we are a very good team at Professional Development Level. (But, remember we have only won the National Title once). And that we have recently won a few games by big scores.

But. Genuine question. What do posters want from playing at a higher level? What do you feel it achieves? What are you looking to gain from it? Remembering that it costs money.

I wonder whether there's just a knee jerk - we do well consistently, won some games, too good for this level, need to move up.

you say we have only won the National Title once but for the last 4 seasons and possibly this season as well we have won our league, it seems to me we have turned into the Celtic of the scottish leagues and need the Cat1 to prosper further.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

To stop Category 1 Academies nicking our best players from 8 to 24

All I hear is - keep disenchanted kids in the Academy who have decided they want to go and train with another team. Force them into red & white stripes. Whether they like it or not. I've never liked the sound of that Slavery Model.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

you say we have only won the National Title once but for the last 4 seasons and possibly this season as well we have won our league, it seems to me we have turned into the Celtic of the scottish leagues and need the Cat1 to prosper further.

What is wrong with being the biggest fish in your pond? That's football isn't it? And pure football at that. Manchester City keep winning their league. They spend a lot of money doing that. Sheffield United U21 keep winning their league. On a broadly level playing field basis.

I fear the move up for moving up sake argument.

 

[Hackey Blade]

What is wrong with being the biggest fish in your pond? That's football isn't it? And pure football at that. Manchester City keep winning their league. They spend a lot of money doing that. Sheffield United U21 keep winning their league. On a broadly level playing field basis.

I fear the move up for moving up sake argument.

Isn't that abit like missing out on promotion from the championship every year so as not to be a little fish in the big pond? and what if it does cost money, surely it has the advantage of recupping bigger fees if we do well and if we don't then back to Cat2

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Isn't that abit like missing out on promotion from the championship every year so as not to be a little fish in the big pond? and what if it does cost money, surely it has the advantage of recupping bigger fees if we do well and if we don't then back to Cat2

No problem.

If the argument is all about bigger fees. Then let's say that's what it is about. It's a spreadsheet.

If it's about football, then I've yet to be convinced.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

There are arguments for, and against, trying to buy into Cat 1. But, I'm suggesting those arguments are the same whether you're the best team in PDL. Or the worst.

I'm pushing back on the argument that we "need" to buy Cat 1 because we are one of the best teams in Cat 2.

 

[Hackey Blade]

No problem.

If the argument is all about bigger fees. Then let's say that's what it is about. It's a spreadsheet.

If it's about football, then I've yet to be convinced.

I know its not a given that if we play better teams we will become better ourselves but imagine if we did, the quality of the influx of U21 players on the 1st team scene this season as been a revelation (i know its because of lack of funds/ not enough players bought etc) so imagine if those players were even better had we been playing Cat1 teams the last two years.

 

[Wards]

You have to be careful with Cat1. It may well transpire that the next batch, or the batch after that, may not be of a level as this current one. It then serves them little to no purpose to be getting their arse spanked week after week. We're currently in the middle of something of a golden period but that won't last forever and the PDL standard has served us very well for a number of years. Cat1 may well benefit the current group but no guarantee it will the next one.

The only logical reason is to stop some players being nicked but that's such a small number it barely matters.

 

[Digs blade]

Phil it feels like you’re trying to create an argument for arguments sake here ( apologies if that isn’t the case).

Quite simply as much as I enjoy seeing our u21’s hammer all and sundry I’d love to see them tested against the countries elite youngsters every week to measure just how good they are.

 

[Digs blade]

You have to be careful with Cat1. It may well transpire that the next batch, or the batch after that, may not be of a level as this current one. It then serves them little to no purpose to be getting their arse spanked week after week. We're currently in the middle of something of a golden period but that won't last forever and the PDL standard has served us very well for a number of years. Cat1 may well benefit the current group but no guarantee it will the next one.

The only logical reason is to stop some players being nicked but that's such a small number it barely matters.

Fair poInt but by getting cat 1 status we will be pulling in a higher level of player so by default, team standards should remain high year on year

 

[Wards]

Fair poInt but by getting cat 1 status we will be pulling in a higher level of player so by default, team standards should remain high year on year

Maybe, maybe not - we don't currently have a lot of competiton the best local talent. No guarantees that we suddenly start getting such an upgrade in the overall standard

 

[Digs blade]

Agree mate no guarantees with anything but generally speaking and all that.

Just feels like we are ready but missing out year on year and as much as I disagree with league 1 and 2 teams having to play against elite u21 sides in that cup (forget the name) at the same time it would be good to see our u21 lads facing that kind of oppo a few times a season

 

[BalticBlade]

What difference does it make if we're CAT 1 or Cat 2? Prince is gonna SELL THEM ALL anyway!

 

[Champagneblade]

Thanks
I get that. That's a longer term investment strategy. But that would be the case whether we're the best team in the PDL. Or the worst.

I'm querying the - we're winning games, we need to be in Cat 1 - posters.

Because by trouncing teams it suggests that the players will not be challenged enough by playing such inferior opposition.

Just like the old adage that playing and training with better players will help push players to advance, so should playing against more challenging opponents.

That’s how I would explain the sentiment, anyhow.

If we do step up and start getting smashed every week then it would be interesting to see what people’s thoughts would be then!

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Phil it feels like you’re trying to create an argument for arguments sake here ( apologies if that isn’t the case).

Quite simply as much as I enjoy seeing our u21’s hammer all and sundry I’d love to see them tested against the countries elite youngsters every week to measure just how good they are.

I'd be amazed if there's a group of fans who debate this more often, frequently and passionately than the Carrier Bag Firm. It is a major talking point at every Academy game we attend, on the way there, there, and on the way back.

I'm not creating the argument. The argument is already there. I'm interested in what others (on here) think, and why.

Is that really an argument - so they can test themselves? Don't we need evidence. Rather than a wishlist? In my experience, few fans know which clubs have switched to Cat 1 (and back again). And even fewer know what impact it has had on pathway progression. I know I don't. And I've looked.

The danger is - Cat 1 is a shiny thing, me want shiny.

 

[Yogi]

Fair poInt but by getting cat 1 status we will be pulling in a higher level of player so by default, team standards should remain high year on year

I’m not sure we’d necessarily pull in a higher level of player as others have said we already recruit exceptionally well and who would be be pinching players from? Blackburn and Derby aren’t taking players from us despite being Cat 1 because ultimately players and parents still play a huge part in deciding where kids play their football. And presumably there was a reason the player and family chose United in the first place and that’s still a factor later in their development and if they’re attracting interest from elsewhere then presumably their development is going well and players and families don’t want to disrupt that. We lose players to the big boys because they can make the kids life changing offers not only in footballing or even monetary terms but they also offer them private education in many cases. As well as housing and accommodation not just for the player but for their family.

We wouldn’t be that kind of a draw we’d be comparable to Derby, Blackburn and Leeds in terms of our pulling power. We’d get some benefit from it but it wouldn’t necessarily be transformative.

If we can afford it then it’s something I’d like to see happen but if it’s something we’d have to make sacrifices for elsewhere in the budget then it very much is a luxury.

 

[Hackey Blade]

I’m not sure we’d necessarily pull in a higher level of player as others have said we already recruit exceptionally well and who would be be pinching players from? Blackburn and Derby aren’t taking players from us despite being Cat 1 because ultimately players and parents still play a huge part in deciding where kids play their football. And presumably there was a reason the player and family chose United in the first place and that’s still a factor later in their development and if they’re attracting interest from elsewhere then presumably their development is going well and players and families don’t want to disrupt that. We lose players to the big boys because they can make the kids life changing offers not only in footballing or even monetary terms but they also offer them private education in many cases. As well as housing and accommodation not just for the player but for their family.

We wouldn’t be that kind of a draw we’d be comparable to Derby, Blackburn and Leeds in terms of our pulling power. We’d get some benefit from it but it wouldn’t necessarily be transformative.

If we can afford it then it’s something I’d like to see happen but if it’s something we’d have to make sacrifices for elsewhere in the budget then it very much is a luxury.

Does anyone know the ongoing costs for Cat1, because if teams like you've suggested plus the likes of sunderland / reading keep on playing in it then it can't be that much surely? as for the original one off cost again surely thats in the academy / first team training facilities budget thats already been set.

 

[Yogi]

Does anyone know the ongoing costs for Cat1, because if teams like you've suggested plus the likes of sunderland / reading keep on playing in it then it can't be that much surely? as for the original one off cost again surely thats in the academy / first team training facilities budget thats already been set.

I think it’s about 5 million a year. Some teams have backed out of it due to the cost despite having built the facilities Birmingham and Swansea I think are two examples

 

[Hackey Blade]

I think it’s about 5 million a year. Some teams have backed out of it due to the cost despite having built the facilities Birmingham and Swansea I think are two examples

Wow, how the hell are Reading affording that?

 

[Yogi]

Wow, how the hell are Reading affording that?

Not a clue. Think it’s touch and go though as they were almost selling their facility to Wycombe not long ago.

Obviously it’s not a 5 million or nothing equation as United’s current set up will be costly but it’ll be a decent jump from Cat 2 to 1 even after you’ve built the facility you’ve got the extra upkeep for the extra pitches, the lighting and heating of the extra buildings and then the wages of the extra staff you have to hire.

 

[Ball_Sup (Phil)]

Does anyone know the ongoing costs for Cat1, because if teams like you've suggested plus the likes of sunderland / reading keep on playing in it then it can't be that much surely? as for the original one off cost again surely thats in the academy / first team training facilities budget thats already been set.

The budget for the First Team Training / Academy may have been set. (Although I'm not sure it has). But the money has still to be found, and paid.
We haven't the money to buy Dore outright. We will be borrowing the money. It will have to be paid. From revenue. We haven't the money to upgrade to Cat 1 outright. We will have to borrow that money.

I happen to firmly believe a football club must move forward with infrastructure, ground, training facilities, academy, whatever. But, that comes at the expense of not being able to spend on transfers and wages. I'm comfortable with that. I'll take the hit to the First Team. For longer term sustainability and engagement.

But. Let's be honest. Fanbases want it all. Cat 1. State of the art facilities. New stands at The Lane. Big wages.