Stadium Development

[metalblade]

I've stood /sat on the kop for 6 decades.
As a younger man it was great when standing.
But since the seats went on , it's basically shit , but I've put up with it for over 30 years.
The rake is crap. You can hardly see over the bloke in front. The legroom is appalling. The facilities worse.
The posts are a nuisance but don't affect me as I'm behind the goal.
I would love it to improve.
But to achieve steeper rake & more legroom is gonna REDUCE not increased its capacity , so financially it's a non-starter.
Any seats bolted on at the back are gonna miles away from the pitch due to the shallow rake.
So nothing will happen to it. because there is just no ROI.

The Lane as a whole is badly set up for any expansion.
Our pitch isn't even long enough to meet UEFA standard.
This goes back to the failure to rotate the pitch by 90degrees in '73.
We are left with a pitch too close to Bramall Lane & John St but miles from Shoreham St & Cherry St.

The SS when built should have been much bigger (longer & higher) with 10k seats like the pigs North Stand) not 7.5k but tight budgets etc etc.

So now any expansion will create a very lopsided ground.
This could have been mitigated when JSS was built , by moving the pitch towards the SS and making JSS bigger , but yet again , each bit of development has been done cheaply and without consideration of the future development of the ground as a whole.

When the kop & BLLT had seats chucked on them post-Taylor , it was obvious to me that the kop should have been moved backwards (towards Shoreham St) , allowing room for future expansion of the BLS as a whole.

What I am saying is that at no stage in my 6 decades has there been any rational plan for the ground as a whole.

So we have a situation with one of the biggest chunks of land in the country accommodating a stadium which has foolishly constricted itself over a period of 60 years.
And a ground which is now extremely difficult to expand in any practical way , making even modest expansion very expensive.

For all my architectural frustrations with the Lane , I still love the place and would hate to leave.
But imo the club is stuck with it in its present shape & size.
Which is a bit like me being stuck with my seat on the kop
Thirsty and with sore knees .
But still singing , after all the years .

Spot on mate agree 99% just not sure how you work out a steeper rake on the kop would reduce capacity, surely the rear would just be higher. Do a proper job of filling in the corners with seats and you would increase capacity, at present with have a TV studio one side and on the other a crap corner with seats placed behind a wall, actually they were the best seats in the ground last season

 

[BladeInIreland]

I think the kop is the obvious one to do. Allows us to give the upper tier to away fans where advantageous and sell more ourselves where possible. It shouldn't cost a ridiculous amount either whilst keeping the character of the lane.

Add that with the new training ground and in turn top category academy and we are laughing. Anything beyond that can come with hopefully a sustained period of success on the pitch.

 

[Classof85]

Easy way to sort the Bramall Lane end is buy the land the other side of the road, knock it down, stick away fans in the corner between John ST and Kop then build a totally new stand that goes over the road, Build it so traffic can still go underneath it, Could build something special at then end, build it so it is easy to segregate away fans.

 

[Jon Bon II]

Go on then, admit it. Which one of you stadium design gurus is Elz the Witch?

Easy-peasy innit. Don't know why we've not done it before now. I reckon we could do it in an international break.

 

[Down the Channels]

The problem with rebuilding the Kop is the return on investment. Nobody is going to build a new stand purely because they feel sorry for the fans sat there or because there aren't enough seats. They have to believe that putting the money in will return more in the long run. Liverpool spent an estimated £80m upgrading and enlarging the Anfield Road stand. That added 8,000 to the capacity of Anfield. Each addtional seat will have to generate £1,000 per season for the investment to pay back over 10 years. That sort of return is only achieved if there's a significant amount of corporate seating in the mix and that, frankly, is not an option for our existing Kop.

The sensible long term option at Bramall Lane is to rebuild the Laver (South) Stand in the car park then rotate the pitch, making the rebuilt South Stand the new Kop. The existing Kop could then be rebuilt with two tiers of seats and two tiers of corporate boxes to give the returns. However, to do all that we'd probably be looking at an investment north of £100m and that would need a big increase in capacity, attendance and revenue per ticket to be viable.

Agree with all of this.
I think this should be the 10 year plan (i.e completed in 10 years). Cat 1 and Dore has to be priority to sustain a good league level and keep income streams from player sales at a good level without hugely reducing the playing standard.
Any car parking we lose at the SS side can be replaced behind a new stand where the Kop is.
As you say, more corporate boxes = £'s revenue.
All of these suggestion though are on the premise that football won't eat itself in the meantime!

 

[stringjunior]

Go on then, admit it. Which one of you stadium design gurus is Elz the Witch?

Easy-peasy innit. Don't know why we've not done it before now. I reckon we could do it in an international break.

I'm sorry, I couldn't focus on the content. Well not the football content anyway.

 

[S64 Blade]

If in these ideal scenarios we did stay at the Lane but had a rebuild, Derby would be the best bet for a ground share for a season or so. It’s not far and right by the station. Similar sized ground to BL currently, so no complaints on a loss of capacity.

 

[Oohaah! Bob Bookah!]

I'm sorry, I couldn't focus on the content. Well not the football content anyway.

I watched it on mute and had a much more enjoyable time!

 

[nopigfansintown]

The last few developments have been done in spite of ROI, not because of it. The South stand has the best business case and still does.That was the next McCabe target, not the Kop (per McCabe's book).

A few things were talked about during our previous to last foray in the Premier League under the Prince:

Kop posts would've been removed if COVID didn't happen - at the end of PL season one. The project then got moved to the next summer (as long as we avoided relegation). The cost was 10-15 million (per fan forum). We were relegated and that was the end of that. Bettis claims that they can be removed "without closing the stand down". Any other Kop development requires closing the stand down. I believe McCabe claimed that the South could remain open like the recentish Anfield Main Stand development.

A training ground building at Shirecliffe was also announced at the end of PL season two. It was subsequently parked and, one assumes, superceded by the Dore project.

Bettis goes into quite a bit of detail about the plan for Shirecliffe/Dore etc in a RS interview:

Get keys August 2024.

Don't expect players on there for another two years afterwards (August 2026).

Estimated cost: "8-10 million pounds cost, plus the cost of the land".

Finds it unnecessary to compete with Leicester's huge, soulless site, "that doesn't really work for them". The HSBC site is smaller but "gives the players no excuses".

Dore allows Shirecliffe to be expanded to fit the required Spec of Cat 1.

Safe standing is supported by the club but won't happen until stadium expansion incorporates it at some point.

 

[YES Blade]

The last few developments have been done in spite of ROI, not because of it. The South stand has the best business case and still does.That was the next McCabe target, not the Kop (per McCabe's book).

A few things were talked about during our previous to last foray in the Premier League under the Prince:

Kop posts would've been removed if COVID didn't happen - at the end of PL season one. The project then got moved to the next summer (as long as we avoided relegation). The cost was 10-15 million (per fan forum). We were relegated and that was the end of that. Bettis claims that they can be removed "without closing the stand down". Any other Kop development requires closing the stand down. I believe McCabe claimed that the South could remain open like the recentish Anfield Main Stand development.

A training ground building at Shirecliffe was also announced at the end of PL season two. It was subsequently parked and, one assumes, superceded by the Dore project.

Bettis goes into quite a bit of detail about the plan for Shirecliffe/Dore etc in a RS interview:

Get keys August 2024.

Don't expect players on there for another two years afterwards (August 2026).

Estimated cost: "8-10 million pounds cost, plus the cost of the land".

Finds it unnecessary to compete with Leicester's huge, soulless site, "that doesn't really work for them". The HSBC site is smaller but "gives the players no excuses".

Dore allows Shirecliffe to be expanded to fit the required Spec of Cat 1.

Safe standing is supported by the club but won't happen until stadium expansion incorporates it at some point.

Is the £10-15m just to remove the posts or were there other improvements included in that? If it’s just to remove the posts then it seems a lot of money when it would only solve one of the many problems with the Kop.

Don’t polish the turd, put that money towards a proper long term solution.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Is the £10-15m just to remove the posts or were there other improvements included in that? If it’s just to remove the posts then it seems a lot of money when it would only solve one of the many problems with the Kop.

Don’t polish the turd, put that money towards a proper long term solution.

The posts alone. I don't know if the new roof structure would be kept after any Kop redevelopment. If so, then it'd my make more sense. It could then be seen as a down payment on a bigger kop redevelopment.

 

[YES Blade]

The posts alone. I don't know if the new roof structure would be kept after any Kop redevelopment. If so, then it'd my make more sense. It could then be seen as a down payment on a bigger kop redevelopment.

Just seen a crazy amount of money for the roof alone. Brentford built a whole stadium for £70m!

I appreciate it’s not going to be cheap, but it just doesn’t make sense to me to even consider spending £10-£15m on that old stand.

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

That was for a all singing dancing Greenfield site build incorporating all the first team ,youth academy ,and ladies .I'd say we need to spend 10m tops on HSBC for just the first team .then it's only extra staffing at shirecliffe to make it cat1

That sounds about right for what we might afford.

 

[Keen Blade]

The last few developments have been done in spite of ROI, not because of it. The South stand has the best business case and still does.That was the next McCabe target, not the Kop (per McCabe's book).

A few things were talked about during our previous to last foray in the Premier League under the Prince:

Kop posts would've been removed if COVID didn't happen - at the end of PL season one. The project then got moved to the next summer (as long as we avoided relegation). The cost was 10-15 million (per fan forum). We were relegated and that was the end of that. Bettis claims that they can be removed "without closing the stand down". Any other Kop development requires closing the stand down. I believe McCabe claimed that the South could remain open like the recentish Anfield Main Stand development.

A training ground building at Shirecliffe was also announced at the end of PL season two. It was subsequently parked and, one assumes, superceded by the Dore project.

Bettis goes into quite a bit of detail about the plan for Shirecliffe/Dore etc in a RS interview:

Get keys August 2024.

Don't expect players on there for another two years afterwards (August 2026).

Estimated cost: "8-10 million pounds cost, plus the cost of the land".

Finds it unnecessary to compete with Leicester's huge, soulless site, "that doesn't really work for them". The HSBC site is smaller but "gives the players no excuses".

Dore allows Shirecliffe to be expanded to fit the required Spec of Cat 1.

Safe standing is supported by the club but won't happen until stadium expansion incorporates it at some point.

If no players expected at Dore until August 2026 , what on earth can be the delay ?
Surely it doesn't take more than 12 months to complete the work ?

And if no players at Dore till August 2026 does this mean no Cat 1 Academy status until well after that because any work can't start until Dore is finished & operating ?

This is really disappointing news.

We need that Academy to be churning out excellent players asap coz our parachutes disappear in 2026.

 

[Keen Blade]

Go on then, admit it. Which one of you stadium design gurus is Elz the Witch?

Easy-peasy innit. Don't know why we've not done it before now. I reckon we could do it in an international break.

Dunno how you play football in that !
Just two round hills with a valley in between.

 

[Keen Blade]

Is the £10-15m just to remove the posts or were there other improvements included in that? If it’s just to remove the posts then it seems a lot of money when it would only solve one of the many problems with the Kop.

Don’t polish the turd, put that money towards a proper long term solution.

No way that we should pay that just to remove kop posts when we seem to be struggling for £10m to do the work at Dore and not expecting it to be operational for two years.
I can't see any reason (other than cashflow) why we can't complete Dore by summer 2025 - get on with it !

 

[nopigfansintown]

If no players expected at Dore until August 2026 , what on earth can be the delay ?
Surely it doesn't take more than 12 months to complete the work ?

And if no players at Dore till August 2026 does this mean no Cat 1 Academy status until well after that because any work can't start until Dore is finished & operating ?

This is really disappointing news.

We need that Academy to be churning out excellent players asap coz our parachutes disappear in 2026.

It seems that way. I suppose it'd depends on when the facilities are upgraded at Shirecliffe and when the application goes in. I remain in the "I'll believe it when I see it camp" until it's done.. The positive is that we've been told the club has the land at Dore. We could do with an update from Bettis sometime this season.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Keen Blade https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hkwvhz

 

[Keen Blade]

Keen Blade https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0hkwvhz

Yes I caught this back in March.

8 months have elapsed - it might be time for an update

 

[Rodley]

The problem with rebuilding the Kop is the return on investment. Nobody is going to build a new stand purely because they feel sorry for the fans sat there or because there aren't enough seats. They have to believe that putting the money in will return more in the long run. Liverpool spent an estimated £80m upgrading and enlarging the Anfield Road stand. That added 8,000 to the capacity of Anfield. Each addtional seat will have to generate £1,000 per season for the investment to pay back over 10 years. That sort of return is only achieved if there's a significant amount of corporate seating in the mix and that, frankly, is not an option for our existing Kop.

The sensible long term option at Bramall Lane is to rebuild the Laver (South) Stand in the car park then rotate the pitch, making the rebuilt South Stand the new Kop. The existing Kop could then be rebuilt with two tiers of seats and two tiers of corporate boxes to give the returns. However, to do all that we'd probably be looking at an investment north of £100m and that would need a big increase in capacity, attendance and revenue per ticket to be viable.

I think you’d be looking at adding a second tier on the South Stand and significantly increasing the corporate offer. Then you’d look at safe standing on the Kop.

 

[S64 Blade]

If no players expected at Dore until August 2026 , what on earth can be the delay ?
Surely it doesn't take more than 12 months to complete the work ?

And if no players at Dore till August 2026 does this mean no Cat 1 Academy status until well after that because any work can't start until Dore is finished & operating ?

This is really disappointing news.

We need that Academy to be churning out excellent players asap coz our parachutes disappear in 2026.

The whole planning process might take 6 months. Given we haven’t submitted any plans yet, 3 months on from gaining ownership, if probably isn’t far wrong with the 24 months. It all depends on how complex the structures are to build and the rest of the site. It sounds like any buildings there will be fairly basic, they shouldn’t take too long. I guess the pitches/equipment side of things could take a few months to set up too.

 

[Digs blade]

You could write on a postage stamp what I know about architecture so apologies for the silly question but why would removing the kop posts cost 10 million quid. Seems extortionate

 

[Eddiecolquhounsleg]

If you just removed the posts, the roof would fall down. To ‘remove the posts’ is a much bigger (and costlier) job than most people think. To remove the posts would mean the entire Kop would have to be redeveloped, hence the £10m cost that is bandied about. Whether that figure is correct is a different matter.

 

[Bladeloyal]

You could write on a postage stamp what I know about architecture so apologies for the silly question but why would removing the kop posts cost 10 million quid. Seems extortionate

All depends on how they want to replace the roof ,no point doing it without extending capacity by about 4k ,then costs will depend on specification and finish .people bandy about costs when they don't know the first thing about construction costs .

 

[CarlMcBlade]

I've stood /sat on the kop for 6 decades.
As a younger man it was great when standing.
But since the seats went on , it's basically shit , but I've put up with it for over 30 years.
The rake is crap. You can hardly see over the bloke in front. The legroom is appalling. The facilities worse.
The posts are a nuisance but don't affect me as I'm behind the goal.
I would love it to improve.
But to achieve steeper rake & more legroom is gonna REDUCE not increased its capacity , so financially it's a non-starter.
Any seats bolted on at the back are gonna miles away from the pitch due to the shallow rake.
So nothing will happen to it. because there is just no ROI.

The Lane as a whole is badly set up for any expansion.
Our pitch isn't even long enough to meet UEFA standard.
This goes back to the failure to rotate the pitch by 90degrees in '73.
We are left with a pitch too close to Bramall Lane & John St but miles from Shoreham St & Cherry St.

The SS when built should have been much bigger (longer & higher) with 10k seats like the pigs North Stand) not 7.5k but tight budgets etc etc.

So now any expansion will create a very lopsided ground.
This could have been mitigated when JSS was built , by moving the pitch towards the SS and making JSS bigger , but yet again , each bit of development has been done cheaply and without consideration of the future development of the ground as a whole.

When the kop & BLLT had seats chucked on them post-Taylor , it was obvious to me that the kop should have been moved backwards (towards Shoreham St) , allowing room for future expansion of the BLS as a whole.

What I am saying is that at no stage in my 6 decades has there been any rational plan for the ground as a whole.

So we have a situation with one of the biggest chunks of land in the country accommodating a stadium which has foolishly constricted itself over a period of 60 years.
And a ground which is now extremely difficult to expand in any practical way , making even modest expansion very expensive.

For all my architectural frustrations with the Lane , I still love the place and would hate to leave.
But imo the club is stuck with it in its present shape & size.
Which is a bit like me being stuck with my seat on the kop
Thirsty and with sore knees .
But still singing , after all the years .

Can’t disagree with any of that. Each stand does represents a cash strapped period in the club’s history and we have painted ourselves into a corner with piecemeal development. But when first started going to BL as a youngster the South Stand was merely a building site and at the time this stand was a super ambitious project for a club whose place in the top tier was far from secure. But we built it…and we got relegated, then the subsequent wilderness years and lack of investment followed, all ultimately blamed on the South Stand development. I guess the mid 70’s was the sliding doors moment for this club, but the way BDTBL has been developed over the years can probably be traced back to this period.

 

[S64 Blade]

It seems pointless spending £10/15m on just ‘removing the posts’, to me. It wouldn’t really achieve that much and it wouldn’t offer a lot in terms of increased revenue for the club (less the odd seat whose view is entirely blocked).

 

[alcoblade]

If no players expected at Dore until August 2026 , what on earth can be the delay ?
Surely it doesn't take more than 12 months to complete the work ?

And if no players at Dore till August 2026 does this mean no Cat 1 Academy status until well after that because any work can't start until Dore is finished & operating ?

This is really disappointing news.

We need that Academy to be churning out excellent players asap coz our parachutes disappear in 2026.

The delay is probably in raising the funds.

The Academy is already churning out lots of very good players.

 

[alcoblade]

It seems pointless spending £10/15m on just ‘removing the posts’, to me. It wouldn’t really achieve that much and it wouldn’t offer a lot in terms of increased revenue for the club (less the odd seat whose view is entirely blocked).

Not just pointless, madness.

 

[S64 Blade]

Not just pointless, madness.

It’d be fine if the rest of the stand/ground was spot on and it was purely just a vanity project. But spending £10/15m on something and then still asking people to piss up a wall, in an outbuilding, after they’ve queued up in the rain for a pie, seems a bit stupid.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]