Stadium Development

[Balham]

The McCabe plans take the capacity up to 42K with minimal loss to the current capacity during the 18 month rebuild, think 42K is enough. Don’t think we need a brand new 50K stadium.

The McCabe plans only made financial sense if the South Stand was done. With the Kop, for me the order of preference is 1) rebuild in its entirety, 2) re-roof with cantilever, 3) do nothing, 4) tack on 4,000 seats at the back. There is, to my mind, very little point chucking money at what is by far the worst part of the stadium unless it's going to fundamentally change the proposition.

 

[Bladeloyal]

The problem with rebuilding the Kop is the return on investment. Nobody is going to build a new stand purely because they feel sorry for the fans sat there or because there aren't enough seats. They have to believe that putting the money in will return more in the long run. Liverpool spent an estimated £80m upgrading and enlarging the Anfield Road stand. That added 8,000 to the capacity of Anfield. Each addtional seat will have to generate £1,000 per season for the investment to pay back over 10 years. That sort of return is only achieved if there's a significant amount of corporate seating in the mix and that, frankly, is not an option for our existing Kop.

The sensible long term option at Bramall Lane is to rebuild the Laver (South) Stand in the car park then rotate the pitch, making the rebuilt South Stand the new Kop. The existing Kop could then be rebuilt with two tiers of seats and two tiers of corporate boxes to give the returns. However, to do all that we'd probably be looking at an investment north of £100m and that would need a big increase in capacity, attendance and revenue per ticket to be viable.

You never make a architect or a qs

 

[Sheffsteel]

The McCabe plans only made financial sense if the South Stand was done. With the Kop, for me the order of preference is 1) rebuild in its entirety, 2) re-roof with cantilever, 3) do nothing, 4) tack on 4,000 seats at the back. There is, to my mind, very little point chucking money at what is by far the worst part of the stadium unless it's going to fundamentally change the proposition.

Agree it’s a bit of a conundrum.

Every option has some negatives attached.
The worse stand/ fans priority is the Kop but the return on investment is poor. Would take decades to get our money back, so it’s more of a vanity project. That’s why if it’s done the club will chose the much cheaper bolt on design as it provides 90% of what fans want as a relatively cheap cost.

The best return on investment is an expanded South stand and even that is questionable needing a leap of faith. Is there much of a market for rich people in the area paying £100 a ticket? Assume any new owner would love the idea of having a fancy boardroom with upmarket extensive VIP/ executive areas, fancy restaurant and bars. Posh changing rooms for players, upmarket state of the art media room to impress journalists and Sky tv.

A new South stand with private underground car park would be the face of the club to wealthy VIP visitors and would be fitting for the 21st century.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Agree it’s a bit of a conundrum.

Every option has some negatives attached.
The worse stand/ fans priority is the Kop but the return on investment is poor. Would take decades to get our money back, so it’s more of a vanity project. That’s why if it’s done the club will chose the much cheaper bolt on design as it provides 90% of what fans want as a relatively cheap cost.

The best return on investment is an expanded South stand and even that is questionable needing a leap of faith. Is there much of a market for rich people in the area paying £100 a ticket? Assume any new owner would love the idea of having a fancy boardroom with upmarket extensive VIP/ executive areas, fancy restaurant and bars. Posh changing rooms for players, upmarket state of the art media room to impress journalists and Sky tv.

A new South stand with private underground car park would be the face of the club to wealthy VIP visitors and would be fitting for the 21st century.

It’s like a 1940’s Disney script. Do you ever let reality get in the way of your meanderings?

 

[CarlMcBlade]

My biggest disappointment regarding the Sheffield derby is that both grounds aren’t really big enough to give this fixture gravitas it deserves. 31k at the Lane and probably 33/34 at the Sty is a sad indictment on two of the most historic stadiums in the country.

 

[Sheffsteel]

It’s like a 1940’s Disney script. Do you ever let reality get in the way of your meanderings?

I'm giving the reality and meandering (quoting facts) is necessary when people aren't understanding basic economics
thinking it's a game of football manager.

I've even heard people on this thread effectively suggest we spend money to reduce capacity.....the reason is to make the stadium look nicer. WTF?

 

[Sheffsteel]

My biggest disappointment regarding the Sheffield derby is that both grounds aren’t really big enough to give this fixture gravitas it deserves. 31k at the Lane and probably 33/34 at the Sty is a sad indictment on two of the most historic stadiums in the country.

Very true but the SY Police probably love the idea of 2K or 3K away fans at this match....the less the better for them.
I remember the days when it was 10K to 15K away fans at each others ground.....will never happen again.

 

[Newbury Blade]

Clubs like Bournemouth with pathetic away allocations should not even be allowed in the Prem in the same way that lower down the pyramid you have to meet certain stadium criteria to be promoted. They seem to have plenty to spend on players.

Stockport County, my second team, had a better ground in the National League North than Bournemouth in the Prem. (And a better Kop than ours!)

 

[Sean Thornton]

I'm giving the reality and meandering (quoting facts) is necessary when people aren't understanding basic economics
thinking it's a game of football manager.

I've even heard people on this thread suggest we spend money to reduce capacity.....the reason is to make the stadium look nicer. WTF?

Basic economics means the plans you mention about the SS are currently a non starter. And always have been. As for ROI have you seen the post regarding Liverpool? Being a yo-yo club as we are now - and losing money in Championship seasons - isnt going to fund huge ground improvements as the financials show. We all want a bigger ground, better Kop and an all round better experience. None of the points you made have any basis in reality at this moment in time, no matter how many people want it to happen. It will have to be small steps. Kop modernisation, standing area and a small increase in capacity are really the only possible options. Even then, any ROI won’t kick in for some time. Good luck to whoever has to present that calculation to who is in the boardroom.

Not seen that. Not worth commenting on really.

 

[AnotherBlade]

Set myself up there ha ha
Thought it might be too radical.

It’s becoming a trend where loads of PL clubs are looking to expand capacity.

Man Utd 73K to over 90K
Newcastle 52K to 70K
Chelsea 41K to 60K
Everton 39K to 52K
Villa 42K to 51K
Leeds 37K to 51K
Arsenal are looking at increasing their 60K capacity as they have a ST waiting list of 30K.

Even the likes of Crystal Palace (a smaller club than us) have now received the green light to increase from 25K to 34K

And Nottingham Forest were talking about increasing from 30K to 40K but more recently their owner is suggesting 50K would be better.

In 10 years time if Bramall Lane is ever extended to 42K, then it’s possible we might still have one of the smaller stadiums in the Premier league.

lol! Wasn't slating you! Just pointing out it would be carnage to suggest that would be possible in terms of fan acceptance! Ground sharing makes sense to the head but not the heart when your stadium is your home, your church as it where! It's just thinking outside the box at the end of the day

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

Perhaps of more significance, rather than stadium alterations, is the new academy and training ground at Dore. This will be very expensive if done properly. For instance, Leicester`s state of the art academy and training ground cost in the region of £100 million. I can`t see us having that investment, but it illustrates that a large sum would be needed to build anything half decent.

 

[s20Blade]

Perhaps of more significance, rather than stadium alterations, is the new academy and training ground at Dore. This will be very expensive if done properly. For instance, Leicester`s state of the art academy and training ground cost in the region of £100 million. I can`t see us having that investment, but it illustrates that a large sum would be needed to build anything half decent.

Have Leicester even got some good academy players in their ranks? It's a brilliant training facility but think they are yet to see any success in financial figures from the initial outlay.

 

[Bladeloyal]

Perhaps of more significance, rather than stadium alterations, is the new academy and training ground at Dore. This will be very expensive if done properly. For instance, Leicester`s state of the art academy and training ground cost in the region of £100 million. I can`t see us having that investment, but it illustrates that a large sum would be needed to build anything half decent.

That was for a all singing dancing Greenfield site build incorporating all the first team ,youth academy ,and ladies .I'd say we need to spend 10m tops on HSBC for just the first team .then it's only extra staffing at shirecliffe to make it cat1

 

[S64 Blade]

Have Leicester even got some good academy players in their ranks? It's a brilliant training facility but think they are yet to see any success in financial figures from the initial outlay.

Luke Thomas mate.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

Agree it’s a bit of a conundrum.

Every option has some negatives attached.
The worse stand/ fans priority is the Kop but the return on investment is poor. Would take decades to get our money back, so it’s more of a vanity project. That’s why if it’s done the club will chose the much cheaper bolt on design as it provides 90% of what fans want as a relatively cheap cost.

The best return on investment is an expanded South stand and even that is questionable needing a leap of faith. Is there much of a market for rich people in the area paying £100 a ticket? Assume any new owner would love the idea of having a fancy boardroom with upmarket extensive VIP/ executive areas, fancy restaurant and bars. Posh changing rooms for players, upmarket state of the art media room to impress journalists and Sky tv.

A new South stand with private underground car park would be the face of the club to wealthy VIP visitors and would be fitting for the 21st century.

But the current kop was already antiquated when it was finished back in 1990. The proposed McCabe plans are also looking so dated now, even before they come off the drawing board.

 

[Sheffsteel]

But the current kop was already antiquated when it was finished back in 1990. The proposed McCabe plans are also looking so dated now, even before they come off the drawing board.

I think McCabe's Kop plans were all about keeping building costs as low as possible. An extra 3,200 seats with a bolt on design behind the current Kop, new concourses/ toilets/ bars but keeping the current Kop similar to how it is now, with the posts removed.
We didn't need any extra facilities built underneath the Kop because the expanded South stand would have the executive/ conference facilities.

As Sean Thornton said if these new owners are "investors", which it seems they are, then it's unlikely they'll do anything for a long while.

I suppose the only realistic possibility is the removal of the posts on the Kop.
Didn't the Prince recently say this was his intention and it wouldn't cost that much.
I'm sure I heard that technology has improved, so United would put up a frame (like a giant goal post) keeping the current roof up
then remove the current thick posts and apparently the Kop roof wouldn't fall down.

 

[robbiez666]

Sounds too close to doing a totally brand new stadium rebuild. Surely
keeping capacity continuously over 30K would be impossible with so many stands being affected

If this happened then a stadium move would be likely. On top of stadium costs we would be losing gate receipts for 2 or 3 years and also probably pay another club extortionate rent costs. Would our fans be willing to travel to Derby etc to watch home games? Many would be put off.

Not sure where 100 mill costs come from because we’d need to build 2 brand new stands from scratch, extend the BLUT stand and change the John street stand.

The McCabe plans take the capacity up to 42K with minimal loss to the current capacity during the 18 month rebuild, think 42K is enough. Don’t think we need a brand new 50K stadium.

If we ever get wealthy owners, I presume they'd end up selling the ground and moving us somewhere out of town where land value is cheaper, thus offsetting some of the costs.

 

[Sheffsteel]

If we ever get wealthy owners, I presume they'd end up selling the ground and moving us somewhere out of town where land value is cheaper, thus offsetting some of the costs.

Similar to Birmingham City, they are talking about relocating to a new 62,000 all seater stadium.
Seems like madness but I suppose that's what you call ambition.

Even much bigger club Aston Villa only have plans to expand Villa Park from the current 42,000 to 51,000.

 

[robbiez666]

Similar to Birmingham City, they are talking about relocating to a new 62,000 all seater stadium.
Seems like madness but I suppose that's ambition.

Seems a bit excessive but then again there's over a million people in Birmingham, without considering the surrounding area. An hour from London. If they do manage to get to the EPL in a 3 years then there is the potential for big gates there. Historically well supported as well.

 

[Tom Bott]

Similar to Birmingham City, they are talking about relocating to a new 62,000 all seater stadium.
Seems like madness but I suppose that's what you call ambition.

What is Birmingham City's average attendance?


Development of visitor numbers

19/20	Championship	15,975
18/19	Championship	22,483
17/18	Championship	21,042
16/17	Championship	18,717

[th]
Season

[/th][th]
Competition

[/th][th]
Average

[/th]


Ambition is not the word I would use.

Insanity and bancruptcy maybe.

If they were that 'ambitious' imagine attending games of football in a stadium only 1/3 to 1/2 full...

 

[robbiez666]

What is Birmingham City's average attendance?


Development of visitor numbers

19/20	Championship	15,975
18/19	Championship	22,483
17/18	Championship	21,042
16/17	Championship	18,717

[th]
Season

[/th][th]
Competition

[/th][th]
Average

[/th]


Ambition is not the word I would use.

Insanity and bancruptcy maybe.

If they were that 'ambitious' imagine attending games of football in a stadium only 1/3 to 1/2 full...

Wrexham's basically trebled. They used to get late 20,000s when they were doing ok in the top flight. But I agree, if it's just for football it's a bit much. But if you make it into a music etc venue, there is more scope.

 

[metalblade]

Think logically about this.

Your reason for levelling the site is to have a stand with a concourse.
However McCabe original bolt on design had a massive fully enclosed concourse with expanded toilet, bar and kiosk areas, all inside and fully protected.

The only advantage of flattening the site is that there would be more room under the stand for banqueting/ restaurants/ conferences etc.
However we would already have plenty of this in an expanded South stand and the John Street stand.

There is a massive negative of flattening the site and that would be that our capacity goes down to only 20,000 for at least 2 years.
Do we stop giving away fans tickets for 2 years or do we continue to give away fans 2.7K and we'll have just over 17K of our own fans at matches.
We currently have over 22K season ticket holders, so what do you say to loyal fans who have't missed a home match for decades
when they are effectively banned from the club or on a rota where occasionally they are forced to miss matches.

Going to football matches is like a drug, a habit that's hard to break
but once you break the habit of going and find other things to do.....it's harder to encourage those same fans to return.
Think it's risky to close down parts of the ground, hence why most expansions these days continue at full capacity.

Liverpool have built new extra tier stands behind their current stands with no reduction in capacity.
Man City are currently doing the same and have almost finished their new stand with no reduction on capacity.
Next year Crystal Palace are planning on building a massive new stand built behind their current stand, again no reduction in capacity.

The big disadvantage with the Kop is the rake is too shallow and the only way out is by walking to the front or back before making your way to the sides. Facilities are also out to the sides nowhere near the seating areas. It was out of date in the 90's when they put seats in which was supposedly a temporary measure yet here we are 30+ years later both the the Kop and Lane ends are well past their sell by dates. Start with the kop move it back make the pitch UEFA size and then sort out the BLLT and then you have a stadium fit for purpose. It is probably the state of both ends that are making the club hard to sell both need serious investment. Surely the is a way of doing the Kop without a complete closure, other clubs find a way while SUFC fans look to find a way that it can't be done.

 

[Sheffsteel]

Wrexham's basically trebled. They used to get late 20,000s when they were doing ok in the top flight. But I agree, if it's just for football it's a bit much. But if you make it into a music etc venue, there is more scope.

Wrexham have never been in the top flight. They've only spent 4 of their 82 years in the 2nd tier (championship level).
Below is a link to great site showing their historical attendance stats

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/wrex.htm

It shows that Wrexhams historical average is 6,111
and the highest average they'd had in their entire history is 11,651 in 1978 when they spent 4 consecutive seasons in the 2nd tier.
In the late 70's they did have the odd crowd just breaking the 20K barrier.

 

[CarlMcBlade]

My love affair with BDTBL is anchored firmly in its location. Just imagine having to traipse out to somewhere like fucking Owlerton to watch you favourite team….Pffft!

 

[Rusty view]

I'd love to have a nice stadium in the same location, but dint think it's needed for current crowds.

I can see the argument to do SS first with corporate revenue. But don't think its needed atm.

If we could improve the supporter experience on kop then that would be priority.

Take posts out and extend and cover concourse. But that will probably be expensive.

 

[YES Blade]

I'd love to have a nice stadium in the same location, but dint think it's needed for current crowds.

I can see the argument to do SS first with corporate revenue. But don't think its needed atm.

If we could improve the supporter experience on kop then that would be priority.

Take posts out and extend and cover concourse. But that will probably be expensive.

To me, it’s just not worth spending any money on minor improvements to the Kop, such as when it was painted black on the outside but left rusty/white inside. Waste of money!

Just removing the posts and covering the concourse won’t make much of an improvement to be worth spending the money.

Just save the money and do a proper job when we can afford it. (Probably never!!!)

 

[reedy63]

I never want the Blades to move away from Beautiful Down Town Bramall Lane. However if we eventually get new owner/owners. That paid over £100m plus to buy the club. They Have the right to do whatever they want. The real estate value location of the Ground near the city centre must be worth a lot of dosh. that would help them get a return of their investment.

 

[Keen Blade]

Set myself up there ha ha
Thought it might be too radical.

It’s becoming a trend where loads of PL clubs are looking to expand capacity.

Man Utd 73K to over 90K
Newcastle 52K to 70K
Chelsea 41K to 60K
Everton 39K to 52K
Villa 42K to 51K
Leeds 37K to 51K
Arsenal are looking at increasing their 60K capacity as they have a ST waiting list of 30K.

Even the likes of Crystal Palace (a smaller club than us) have now received the green light to increase from 25K to 34K

And Nottingham Forest were talking about increasing from 30K to 40K but more recently their owner is suggesting 50K would be better.

In 10 years time if Bramall Lane is ever extended to 42K, then it’s possible we might still have one of the smaller stadiums in the Premier league.

All those you mentioned have loadsa munneh or wadded owners.
The only comparable club is Palace and they've had many seasons of PL.
We have losses in Championship despite Parachutes , plus debt.
And an owner who's admitted he wants out coz he can't fund us.
Keep dreaming about investment in the Lane if you like , but it IS a dream.
Unless you can explain how to fund it.
We haven't even started on Dore yet.

 

[Keen Blade]

Some good points however

1: Do we need a 42K stadium? Think the question should be...how come so many clubs in the PL are planning for 60K to 80K capacities, even smaller clubs (Fulham, Palace, Leicester and Forest) are talking about needing 40K stadiums......where as for some reason one of the biggest cities in England is still thinking that 32K will be fine in a country with a rapidly expanding population.

2: Agree we don't want a situation like a Hillsboro with empty seats spread out
however what will happen is that the South stand upper tier will likely be fully closed for most in the Championship.
A bit like what Cardiff do and Leeds did with their big stand. Thankfully for United the South stand isn't visible on TV, so it wouldn't look as bad.

3: You say we didn't average 30K, some website show out average as 30,011 whilst others show 29,985.
So which ever you choose, it was basically 30K in probably the worse season in our entire history.
It's the only season in my 50 years watching us where pre-match our fans had zero hope, it was just a case of how many we'd lose by.

4: Another reasonable reply, however again the question should be
How can Fulham, Palace, Forest, Leicester just plod along in mid to lower positions in the Premier league and still have ambitions for a 40K capacity
where as Sheffielder's think there wouldn't ever be the same demand in Sheffield. Why are we different to all other cities?

How are we different to other cities ?
Not as wealthy / low wage economy.
Not in PL.
Not a rich owner.
Even if there was more demand for tickets , the club doesn't have the finances for ground expansion.

 

[Keen Blade]

I've stood /sat on the kop for 6 decades.
As a younger man it was great when standing.
But since the seats went on , it's basically shit , but I've put up with it for over 30 years.
The rake is crap. You can hardly see over the bloke in front. The legroom is appalling. The facilities worse.
The posts are a nuisance but don't affect me as I'm behind the goal.
I would love it to improve.
But to achieve steeper rake & more legroom is gonna REDUCE not increased its capacity , so financially it's a non-starter.
Any seats bolted on at the back are gonna miles away from the pitch due to the shallow rake.
So nothing will happen to it. because there is just no ROI.

The Lane as a whole is badly set up for any expansion.
Our pitch isn't even long enough to meet UEFA standard.
This goes back to the failure to rotate the pitch by 90degrees in '73.
We are left with a pitch too close to Bramall Lane & John St but miles from Shoreham St & Cherry St.

The SS when built should have been much bigger (longer & higher) with 10k seats like the pigs North Stand) not 7.5k but tight budgets etc etc.

So now any expansion will create a very lopsided ground.
This could have been mitigated when JSS was built , by moving the pitch towards the SS and making JSS bigger , but yet again , each bit of development has been done cheaply and without consideration of the future development of the ground as a whole.

When the kop & BLLT had seats chucked on them post-Taylor , it was obvious to me that the kop should have been moved backwards (towards Shoreham St) , allowing room for future expansion of the BLS as a whole.

What I am saying is that at no stage in my 6 decades has there been any rational plan for the ground as a whole.

So we have a situation with one of the biggest chunks of land in the country accommodating a stadium which has foolishly constricted itself over a period of 60 years.
And a ground which is now extremely difficult to expand in any practical way , making even modest expansion very expensive.

For all my architectural frustrations with the Lane , I still love the place and would hate to leave.
But imo the club is stuck with it in its present shape & size.
Which is a bit like me being stuck with my seat on the kop
Thirsty and with sore knees .
But still singing , after all the years .