So lets see what we're left with

[alcoblade]

He let himself down with part of the Beattie issue in my opinion, but other than that, I don't think he's really done a lot wrong... Other than perhaps not been more vocal during periods of slight discontent.

I've been a big supporter of McCabe. But I can't shake the thought that as a club we are in the same league as we were when he arrived, and we have accumulated about £50M of debt. Given that (for instance) we can't hold on to any player of quality, I'm not really sure how I'd argue that the debt has been worth it.

In actual fact, in a way that is tangible to fans, what has McCabe really done for us? I'll give you affordable football. But right now, even that's too expensive for the product.

UTB

 

[alcoblade]

and which part of:



...suggests anything but Fradi is owned by Kevin McCabe's group and not Sheffield United?

Again, the idea is, we clone our academy over there and get first refusal on anyone we like like the look of.

As asked above, I'd like to know who pays for the coaches, players, travel, accommodation etc etc of all the English players, contracts etc. I'm really struggling to see how a bankrupt east European outfit could stump it up.

The one SUFC owned asset, Chengdu, lost the business about £2.5M last year alone, I believe.


UTB

 

[Foxy]

No doubt McCabe is the ultimate in corporate bollocks when he talks - it is an insult to us loyal fans every time he opens his gob in my opinion. I love Foxy's amazement that people can talk so disparagingly about SUFC and McCabe and Blackwell but that's jyst my reading of the great stuff above. Some great points.

I'm not amazed, I'm just a little bemused, as predictable as it is, at peoples insistance to twist and fabricate information or a lack of information to suit what they've already decided about a person.

Which part of the above is bollocks or an insult? In my opinion, it was refreshing to hear the types of things he said to us at the Q&A and parts of it I'd have never in a million years expected him to disclose in such detail.

McCabe and Blackwell are always contradiciting eachother and it can't help when a manager has his agenda (skint) and chairman has his agenda (4th highest wage bill - buy a season ticket. How do yiou square that one Foxy?

It's hardly a contradiction. Blackwell says we have to loan and cannot pick anyone one we want because we can't compete in the market with the others... McCabe says we have a high wage bill...

These two go hand in hand, one of the reasons we have had to ship players and can't make many big signings on big wages is that we do have a high wage bill.

The other thing often overlooked or shunned is that fact that we are in a far stronger position to negociate if it is "common knowledge" that we are "skint" or we don't publicise the fact we have money to spend. For this reason, as fans, we rarely get a completely transparent view of what is going on in terms of player movement/investment and rightly so.

Of course McCabe and Blackwells view of our financial health and what is available to us is opinion. What they call "skint" or "significant" might not be the figures we as fans have in mind.

He isn't faultless by any stretch, he's made mistakes, but in my opinion, a lot of the current critisism he recieves isn't properly thought out or based on things which are inaccurate or misunderstood.

This of course could be improved with better media outlets/communication, but not in the current climate as ears aren't as open as they perhaps normally would be.

 

[Micalijo]

For me it is a blatant contradiction. They have their own agendas. Am I misunderstanding what contradiction means? I don't think manager and chairman are pulling in same direction publically anyway.

I think the chairman's statement in the accounts is one huge load of bollocks. And I was insulted (for want of a better word) by his Beattie interview. I can't recall the Q&A comments so fair enough if what he said was normal and clear. Can you give me a quikc example of this clarity.

I promise you I aint so narrow minded as to make my mind up and refuse to change re a person. My views on McCabe and Blackwell are based on what I see and hear and are genuinely held concerns about future of SUFC.

 

[Foxy]

I think the chairman's statement in the accounts is one huge load of bollocks. And I was insulted (for want of a better word) by his Beattie interview. I can't recall the Q&A comments so fair enough if what he said was normal and clear. Can you give me a quikc example of this clarity.

Our transcript (word for word) of the Q&A can be found here (it's in four parts, so don't skip past the links towards the top of the page )

Do bear in mind that it was completely off the cuff, so it's a little unfair to micro-analyse every single word, but I think overall he came out of it pretty well.

 

[Micalijo]

Cheers. I think we all can be guilty of a bit of micro-analysis at times!! I like that phrase Foxy

 

[Rustyblade]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin McCabe
Well let me just say, I'll answer you but, Ferencvaros is not in fact owned by Sheffield United but Sheffield United get the benefits, it's owned by my own group. It's probably not quite recognised by fans.

...suggests anything but Fradi is owned by Kevin McCabe's group and not Sheffield United?

Again, the idea is, we clone our academy over there and get first refusal on anyone we like like the look of."

Sorry about the layout here but for some reason I can't multi-quote.

Okay, bold bits first. These benefits are what exactly? An empty statement devoid of meaning. Classic McCabe. Sorry.

Now the italics. You have a wee jab at people for maybe misunderstanding/misconstruing the great man's words re. work permits etc and then repeat them yourself as part of your argument. Leaving that aside though, how can we clone our academy over there if it isn't our club? And if this first refusal is anything like the Leeds friendly or first dibs on Spurs loans then God help us.

 

[Foxy]

Okay, bold bits first. These benefits are what exactly? An empty statement devoid of meaning. Classic McCabe. Sorry.

Again, you are taking a small quote and deciding that McCabe is chucking out a pointless statement in an attempt to sound good. Go and read the Q&A transcript, he explains in a little bit more detail, but it isn't a full portfolio of guarenteed benefits, more the outline of the concept.

Now the italics. You have a wee jab at people for maybe misunderstanding/misconstruing the great man's words re. work permits etc and then repeat them yourself as part of your argument. Leaving that aside though, how can we clone our academy over there if it isn't our club? And if this first refusal is anything like the Leeds friendly or first dibs on Spurs loans then God help us.

What have I repeated?

We, are another club under the control of Kevin McCabe, therefore his apparent aim is to take the ethos and set up of our academy and create the same across there. This doesn't mean Sheffield United FC is paying for and creating an academy like ours, it means Kevin McCabe's group and Fradi are. I have no idea how us having the pick of any talent is going to work, but that is the supposed idea and with our chief's group in control of things, I guess he can do what he likes.

We've definately placed at least a couple of players Sheffield United FC were interested in across there, but as to what is happening with them, I have no idea.

 

[Rustyblade]

Outline of the concept.

Nowhere in that outline did I see any reference to the amount of prime real estate in the near centre of a major European capital that McCabe acquired through buying Fradi. Developing this land in the future could be an immense money maker, probably bigger than anything he has so far carried off. It's huge. And it's why he's there.

Look at it from Fradi's point of view. They are in roughly the same boat as we are. There has been little investment on the playing side. Shaw for christ's sake and a few young Blades who are nowhere near our first (championship) team. The management is what, Craig Short and Ron Reid. Now there's a Champions' League team, eh? You think Blackwell's cheap as chips!

He tried palming them off with our Turry, gave them promises of Europe in a few years, gave them pretty designs for a new (only 25,000) all seater stadium and basically forgot all about it until Turry got into a bit of a pickle and he was forced to step in and make an appearance, becoming the chairman himself. This is not what he wanted.

If you think we as fans of the Blades are too demanding, well Fradi are historically the most successful and well supported club in Hungary and their fans are beginning to suspect the same as ourselves. That despite all the promises, very little has been delivered and they are in the bottom half of the table with new signings from what is it, Port Vale? Yes, they're real happy. Not quite mutinous yet but twitchy.

I guess what I really mean is that the set up there is similar in that it is not a football club with property interests, it is, in fact, the other way round. The club seems almost an appendage. A necessary first step to get hold of the acreage. Not the priority in other words.

It's also interesting to note that the perception among the media over there is that SUFC is some sort of a parent club. Strange all these misconceptions and misunderstandings, aren't they?

 

[lenners]

and which part of:



...suggests anything but Fradi is owned by Kevin McCabe's group and not Sheffield United?

Again, the idea is, we clone our academy over there and get first refusal on anyone we like like the look of.

And which part of McCabe's quote doesn't entirely back up what I was saying - he acknowledges exactly what I said.
Which benefits have we had? How much money has the club - not McCabe - spent on Ferencvaros when we don't even own it?
Are the players and staff wages spent in Hungary paid by SUFC or McCabe?
If they're paid by SUFC it pretty much stinks. We've had no benefits and some pretty unpleasant publicity to go with it.

 

[Foxy]

And which part of McCabe's quote doesn't entirely back up what I was saying - he acknowledges exactly what I said.

You said that he was quite happy for it to seem like it was our venture. The quote is word for word, McCabe saying that it is his groups venture, not Sheffield United FC's. That isn't exactly what you said/suggested by a long stretch.

Which benefits have we had? How much money has the club - not McCabe - spent on Ferencvaros when we don't even own it?

We've been able to place some youngsters there, allowing them to experience a different culture and "first team" football. We've also placed a couple of players at least who we were interested in, enabling us, or trusted partners, to take a look at them more closely. Again, the idea is, to create an academy and hopefully uncover some gems which we can run the rule over. There is no set timescale/measure of "benefits" specified of being linked with them.

Are the players and staff wages spent in Hungary paid by SUFC or McCabe?
If they're paid by SUFC it pretty much stinks. We've had no benefits and some pretty unpleasant publicity to go with it.

Fradi players are paid by Fradi? McCabe and his group finance Fradi.


You've seen the transcript of the Q&A, you had the opportunity to attend and ask him face to face... If all there is to throw at him is "If x is done by Sheffield United FC then it stinks" with no apparent evidence of x being done by SUFC, then I'd suggest it's stuck on the shelf with the other hundreds of conspiricy theories about his intentions.

 

[lenners]

You said that he was quite happy for it to seem like it was our venture. The quote is word for word, McCabe saying that it is his groups venture, not Sheffield United FC's. That isn't exactly what you said/suggested by a long stretch.



We've been able to place some youngsters there, allowing them to experience a different culture and "first team" football. We've also placed a couple of players at least who we were interested in, enabling us, or trusted partners, to take a look at them more closely. Again, the idea is, to create an academy and hopefully uncover some gems which we can run the rule over. There is no set timescale/measure of "benefits" specified of being linked with them.




Fradi players are paid by Fradi? McCabe and his group finance Fradi.


You've seen the transcript of the Q&A, you had the opportunity to attend and ask him face to face... If all there is to throw at him is "If x is done by Sheffield United FC then it stinks" with no apparent evidence of x being done by SUFC, then I'd suggest it's stuck on the shelf with the other hundreds of conspiricy theories about his intentions.

Give over, his quote acknowledged what the common belief was.
And are you saying that McCabe paid for Robinson to travel and work in Hungary? The manager to live and work in Hungary? The players' wages?
If that's right for Robinson, how come he was there as a representative of SUFC? How come he seems to have left SUFC, not McCabe ltd?

 

[alcoblade]

Terry Robinson would earn hundred's of thousands per year - I'd suspect. Even if it were £50K? What about costs? What about the ex prem player as manager? A Hungarian side couldn't afford all this, IMHO.

How much do SUFC PLC subsidide McCabe's other interests? I'd love an answer from him.

UTB

 

[Foxy]

Give over, his quote acknowledged what the common belief was.

He's acknowledged what some people thought and corrected it. How does that count as misleading people exactly?

And are you saying that McCabe paid for Robinson to travel and work in Hungary? The manager to live and work in Hungary? The players' wages?
If that's right for Robinson, how come he was there as a representative of SUFC? How come he seems to have left SUFC, not McCabe ltd?

I have absolutely no idea the symantics of how Terry Robinson was paid and what for. I'm saying that Fradi pay Fradi's wages. As owner, Kevin McCabe finances Fradi. Robinson was there working for Fradi, whilst still perfoming "duties" for Sheffield United, who's to say Kevin McCabe's group/Fradi weren't paying his wages and the Blades getting Turry for free?

Like I said, the way to find out the additional detail, is ask Kevin McCabe.

He's been asked many times on the radio, he was asked at the Q&A and he said that anyone thinking that Sheffield United FC was propping up his property company or any of the overseas interests were living in dreamland.

If you have any reason to doubt this, why not ask him? there was ample opportunity at the Q&A and he very often responds to well thought out communication. Surely it would do more to address your fears than speculating and accusing with little fact or detail on the matter?

PS - You never gave me your opinion as to what constraints directors had on they ability to loan the club money.

 

[Micalijo]

I'd love to see his reaction if Paul Walker ever asked him this about subsidies from SUFC to Realty and the other piles of shite. I'd pay good money.

I can honestly see a future for Foxy as McCabe's PR person - some of the stuff really is quite good if you look at it from a PR persepctive.

 

[lenners]

Foxy,
My concerns are that Ferencvaros is in reality a McCabe business venture which is being subsidised by SUFC. That much is obvious.
Secondly, directors should not be receiving interest rates way above LIBOR for loans into a business they've run so well it needs their darn loans in the first place. It's taking the piss.

 

[Micalijo]

Len, I know exactly what you are saying but if McCabe took a £250k salary per annum I don't think there'd be as much hoo-haa. Believe, me I am 100% with you in general but in terms of what McCabe takes out I think it could be alot worse.

 

[lenners]

Len, I know exactly what you are saying but if McCabe took a £250k salary per annum I don't think there'd be as much hoo-haa. Believe, me I am 100% with you in general but in terms of what McCabe takes out I think it could be alot worse.

This isn't only about McCabe though, is it?
And actually I do think it's reasonable to question what McCabe is taking out of the club if the Hungary venture has helped his personal property business.

 

[Micalijo]

All I'm saying is if anyone took £250k out of their business (SUFC) and chooses to invest that (after income tax) in a property in Budapest held personally or via another business I don't see a problem with that. That's possibly all he's done isn't it?

I suspect, and so do you, that there is far more to it than that- and it sounds like Fradi fans are being ripped off just like we are in terms of words and actions - but just for once I could be totally wrong re McCabe!!!!

I am far more worried about the link between Scarborough, Realty and SUFC Ltd.

 

[Foxy]

I can honestly see a future for Foxy as McCabe's PR person - some of the stuff really is quite good if you look at it from a PR persepctive.

The thing is, i'm not intentionally trying to make him sound better, merely putting across stuff that he's said/done in the public domain.

I have critisisms of the bloke myself, but what I dislike is the enforcing of opinions, speculation and accusations without taking what he's actually said/done into consideration... It's very closed minded to not actually investigate/question directly what he has said/done, especially when you consider anything that doesn't meet your ready-formed opinion as "spin".

What I think speaks volumes is that when presented with the opportunity, very few people actually ask the man the questions or to comment on their presumptions. People would rather keep their opinion of him intact and not cross the comfort zone of putting things to him/learning whether their conspiricy theory is right or wrong.

 

[lenners]

All I'm saying is if anyone took £250k out of their business (SUFC) and chooses to invest that (after income tax) in a property in Budapest held personally or via another business I don't see a problem with that. That's possibly all he's done isn't it?

I suspect, and so do you, that there is far more to it than that- and it sounds like Fradi fans are being ripped off just like we are in terms of words and actions - but just for once I could be totally wrong re McCabe!!!!

I am far more worried about the link between Scarborough, Realty and SUFC Ltd.

But that isn't what has been done.
Ferencvaros has been inextricably linked with SUFC, resources have gone to Hungary from the SUFC business.
That isn't being done in lieu of pay to McCabe, that's resources out of SUFC the business.
And that's ok. But let's be open about it and be clear about it.
Resources have gone one way and SUFC, as far as I recall, have got no players from Hungary and derived no financial benefit from being connected to Hungary. Unless you could argue there's some intangible benefit to the publicity surrounding the deal putting SUFC's name in the limelight to a small degree.

 

[Micalijo]

When am I meant to get chance to sit and question him? I'd gladly do it? Shall I write to him? The questions I want answered he will say are private matters - therefore as a fan I speculate, and you seem to dislike this for some reason.

He only answers questions he wants to answer. The Beattie interview, when he was asked a good question, showed him up. I haven't heard anything different since.

What are your criticisms then? You go on about this but never actually say anything - you just spend hours trying to say we have no evidence - which I could have told you ages ago and do regularly anyway.

 

[Micalijo]

But that isn't what has been done.
Ferencvaros has been inextricably linked with SUFC, resources have gone to Hungary from the SUFC business.
That isn't being done in lieu of pay to McCabe, that's resources out of SUFC the business.
And that's ok. But let's be open about it and be clear about it.
Resources have gone one way and SUFC, as far as I recall, have got no players from Hungary and derived no financial benefit from being connected to Hungary. Unless you could argue there's some intangible benefit to the publicity surrounding the deal putting SUFC's name in the limelight to a small degree.

Are we saying Craig Short is on the SUFC payroll, even thoug he works for a totally separate company?

I'm not sure exactly how this works but I think this would necessitate some sort of loan (which just builds and builds) from Fradi to SUFC. I work in accountancy and can't think how this would work Len in practice. I am certain the accounst would have to mention transactions with a related party and although there are loans coming in from Scarborough, I don't think these are Fradi related.

 

[Rustyblade]

Conspiracy theory, Foxy? Which one would that be? I see no conspiracy. Just an astute businessman and some potentially brilliant property deals. If you think I see a conspiracy in that McCabe seems to put property ahead of the interests of SUFC and Fradi as FOOTBALL clubs then, okay, guilty as charged.

I don't quite see how I fit into the mould of conspiracy theorist myself but I'm willing to be persuaded.

I'm not looking for conspiracies, transparency is what I'm after. A clearing up of who pays for what. You say that he says that anyone who thinks that SUFC is subsidising his property business is living in cloud cuckoo land. I can believe that. But can you tell me which other element of his business empire is providing him with as much cashflow right now, bearing in mind that most of those 40 odd millions become payable this year? That would not be termed a subsidy, would it. Precisely the reverse. He can say that his companies are subsidising SUFC with loans. Just semantics. The bottom line is that it'll be SUFC out of pocket and the loaning companies in profit.

But to what extent is SUFC subsidising Fradi? That we do not know. All I know is that neither club has had any net investment on the playing side and the promises made to both are surprisingly similar - all promising jam tomorrow while present day operations seem to be carried out on a shoestring budget.

None of these are conspiracies, surely.

 

[Foxy]

When am I meant to get chance to sit and question him? I'd gladly do it?

Did you go to the Q&A?

Shall I write to him? The questions I want answered he will say are private matters - therefore as a fan I speculate, and you seem to dislike this for some reason.

If you write to him, in a sensible manner, then you are fairly likely to get a reply. I know a number of people that have, some of which were slagging him off for not responding just before he phoned them personally, talked with them and invited them to come and chat in person at a future date. Some stuff has to stay private for a reason, but you'll at the very least get a proper reason that it cannot be passed on.

He only answers questions he wants to answer. The Beattie interview, when he was asked a good question, showed him up. I haven't heard anything different since.

Like I said before, I think the Beattie interview was a major blip on his usual performance. He did however try to explain at the Q&A why he couldn't disclose certain information at certain times.

What are your criticisms then? You go on about this but never actually say anything - you just spend hours trying to say we have no evidence - which I could have told you ages ago and do regularly anyway.

I've linked or quoted things that people seem to have not seen, isn't that helpful in answering the questions?

 

[lenners]

Are we saying Craig Short is on the SUFC payroll, even thoug he works for a totally separate company?

I'm not sure exactly how this works but I think this would necessitate some sort of loan (which just builds and builds) from Fradi to SUFC. I work in accountancy and can't think how this would work Len in practice. I am certain the accounst would have to mention transactions with a related party and although there are loans coming in from Scarborough, I don't think these are Fradi related.

I don't know but I'm fairly sure that the pie man was.
But even if none of them were on our payroll, they were SUFC assets and undeniably take up SUFC time and money.
I would imagine that just about every appointment or 'transfer' to Hungary has been put on SUFC's website for starters.

 

[lenners]

Foxy, I suggest you re-read McCabe's comments on Hungary.

 

[Micalijo]

Things is Foxy - I'm speculating. I think I consistently say that. I know I aint going to get an answer to the questions I want answering about Realty and has it borrowed on back of SUFC assets. I want to know how much Realty owes to the bank and when. Accounts will only say so much. I aint going to get an answer to these questions and I don't want McCabe to explain why he can't answer them.

No I didn't go to Q&A but as I say, for me it is pointless because I have questions he will say he can't answer.

Therefore, I let some steam off on here. Yes, your links are very helpful and I appreciate it - I enjoy debating with you but I still feel, other than Beattie, that you don't say what you think about McCabe, merely commentate on the way we speculate.

I 100% accept his privacy and right to do what he wants with his companies.

How's that for micro-analysis!!?

 

[mattbianco1]

gonna stay in boozer on saturday and get bolloxed.

One less boo boy??