Smart recruitment...

[Blacksea]

The simple answer is we don’t have the embedded scouting infrastructure that the likes of Bournemouth and Brentford have spent over a decade developing.

We have also shown no inclination to put such an infrastructure in place. We also aren’t structured in the way those clubs are in term of delegation of responsibility we still give the manager a lot of input on signings

It says in the article Bournemouth don't have a scout in France,but they use Lorient database because of ownership connections.

 

[RMBlade]

... that seems to elude us:

How Eli Junior Kroupi became Bournemouth’s next jewel … and a World Cup bolter

The French teenager has racked up numbers this season that put him on a par with Erling Haaland and Lamine Yamal

www.theguardian.com

Kroupi was in Ligue 2 last season. Why can't we find him and his ilk?

He’s been a wonderkid on football manager for 3 years. I’m not saying they’re always right or that Kroupi was guaranteed to be a success but I’d imagine he was on a lot of clubs radars, it’s not like he’s some random unknown player.

 

[jt64]

Feckinell we don't want artificial intelligence - that's worse than the little we already have.
Just need scouts with some knowledge of the game and eyes that work properly.

To look at a database? I can write a script that's more efficient than that

 

[Yogi]

It says in the article Bournemouth don't have a scout in France,but they use Lorient database because of ownership connections.

That’s still part of their network even if they aren’t directly paying the scouts they still have access to their data.

It’s why on paper united world was a good idea and it’s the sort of thing we should’ve been doing. It looked like that is what we were going to do at the start but for some reason we dropped it like a hot rock and all three clubs seemed to go back to being completely siloed.

I think at several times in the Prince years we looked at what other clubs were doing successfully and made half hearted attempts to do it ourselves but then quietly abandoned it.

This was probably due to a lack of funds and to a certain extent the power Wilder accumulated within United. What was needed to make that multi club system work was a group of management staff sitting above all the member clubs who’s job it was to identify and sign players for the group with a clear plan for how those players would be developed within the group and moved between the clubs. It would be those type of staff roles who would organise partner clubs sharing scouting data and recommending targets to each other.

Obviously though that would cost money quite a lot, money we know the Prince didn’t have certainly not to do it in a meaningful way. Also Wilder made it very clear during that period that United World was being set up that he wouldn’t tolerate anyone stepping on his toes.

I appreciate a DoF is spoken about a lot as a magic bullet and it definitely isn’t but what it does give clubs is a senior member of staff responsible to setting the long term direction who is more likely to make signings for the long term than a manager who’s focus rightly will be on addressing the immediate squad needs.

It also helps make your scouting output better if scouting department has a consistent idea of what type of player they’re looking for as opposed to when it all rests with the manager and multiple different managers with different preferences can be in charge in a single season nevermind over a 4-5 year cycle. The most consistent member of staff United have had over the period when we’ve had the most money to spend on fees in our history is Bettis and there’s no way Bettis has a long term vision for what he wants the squad to look like or the type of player he views as being a United player.

 

[Danetheblade]

Uniteds recruitment team summed up in a photo.

 

[Keen Blade]

To look at a database? I can write a script that's more efficient than that

No to watch a player actually play in a competitive game

 

[Rodley]

Players signed by Wilder since he replaced Hecky

Grbic
BBD
Holgate
Burrows
Cooper
Moore
O'Hare
Campbell
Shackleton
McCallum
Souttar
Clarke
Gilchrist
Choudhury
Holding
JRS
Bamford
Riedewald
Hoever
Phillips
Rothwell

1 player who'd not played in the English leagues. 2 players born outside the UK. Only Choudhury as a genuine plus athlete.

But equally couldn’t that point to limitations in terms of scope of the scouting network as opposed to the lack of use of data?

 

[Carlton Blade]

But couldn’t that point to limitations in terms of scope of the scouting network as opposed to the lack of use of data?

You use data to narrow down the players you want to scout. If you wanted to consider players outside the parameters of that list, you would.

As it is, almost all those players could be 'scouted' by your average, knowledgeable amateur

 

[Blacksea]

Feckinell we don't want artificial intelligence - that's worse than the little we already have.
Just need scouts with some knowledge of the game and eyes that work properly.
I mean , Gbiric ? Cannon for £10m ? Shackleton ? Chong ? McGuinness ? Tanga for £6m ?
And uncle tom cobblers an all.

Given there are literally hundreds of players involved in the American MLS league,it would be reasonable to suggest that out of that lot,a couple would make decent EFL players,so why don't our owners just set up an arrangement with a scout or two who do the job for MLS teams to see who the promising ones are in the MLS and sort a couple out for us to keep an eye on,at least the owners could show some forward thinking and initiative to improve their own investment in a market that has proved to have good results in European leagues and is the correct demographic for things like language,culture and is their home country

 

[Blacksea]

That’s still part of their network even if they aren’t directly paying the scouts they still have access to their data.

It’s why on paper united world was a good idea and it’s the sort of thing we should’ve been doing. It looked like that is what we were going to do at the start but for some reason we dropped it like a hot rock and all three clubs seemed to go back to being completely siloed.

I think at several times in the Prince years we looked at what other clubs were doing successfully and made half hearted attempts to do it ourselves but then quietly abandoned it.

This was probably due to a lack of funds and to a certain extent the power Wilder accumulated within United. What was needed to make that multi club system work was a group of management staff sitting above all the member clubs who’s job it was to identify and sign players for the group with a clear plan for how those players would be developed within the group and moved between the clubs. It would be those type of staff roles who would organise partner clubs sharing scouting data and recommending targets to each other.

Obviously though that would cost money quite a lot, money we know the Prince didn’t have certainly not to do it in a meaningful way. Also Wilder made it very clear during that period that United World was being set up that he wouldn’t tolerate anyone stepping on his toes.

I appreciate a DoF is spoken about a lot as a magic bullet and it definitely isn’t but what it does give clubs is a senior member of staff responsible to setting the long term direction who is more likely to make signings for the long term than a manager who’s focus rightly will be on addressing the immediate squad needs.

It also helps make your scouting output better if scouting department has a consistent idea of what type of player they’re looking for as opposed to when it all rests with the manager and multiple different managers with different preferences can be in charge in a single season nevermind over a 4-5 year cycle. The most consistent member of staff United have had over the period when we’ve had the most money to spend on fees in our history is Bettis and there’s no way Bettis has a long term vision for what he wants the squad to look like or the type of player he views as being a United player.

Going back to when we had a partnership with Ferencvaros which came to nothing much more than a friendly,they are now the kind of link up club that are producing players that will do well in the EFL,I think Bournemouth took Toth from them recently.

 

[Rodley]

You use data to narrow down the players you want to scout. If you wanted to consider players outside the parameters of that list, you would.

As it is, almost all those players could be 'scouted' by your average, knowledgeable amateur

Have we got the resource to process that amount of data?

I’ve no issue with people mumping about the outcome of the transfer processes, but it’s all fan fiction on here about how we get there - there’s limited insight about use of data or lack of, amount of adequate resource or lack of, or even the clubs or management teams general philosophy. All of which are interrelated I imagine.

Not attributing this to you, but one week people blame Bettis, the next Hoyland, the next Wilder. It’s bonkers.

 

[jt64]

No to watch a player actually play in a competitive game

That seems a hugely inefficient use of resources and the complete opposite of "smart recruitment"

 

[Berkshire Blade]

Our youth signing record is pretty strong. Peck. David Brooks, seriki, Osukla, ndiaye in the last few years alone worth millions. Probably others I can't recall right now too.

Whatever we use to do that clearly works but not in every single transfer. However at that level we only see the success and not the failed ones.

The last decade the club went from league one to every season being somewhat good in terms of league position or money brought in via previous success until we diverged from the plan in having premier league or good championship seasons

 

[Carlton Blade]

Have we got the resource to process that amount of data?

I’ve no issue with people mumping about the outcome of the transfer processes, but it’s all fan fiction on here about how we get there - there’s limited insight about use of data or lack of, amount of adequate resource or lack of, or even the clubs or management teams general philosophy. All of which are interrelated I imagine.

Not attributing this to you, but one week people blame Bettis, the next Hoyland, the next Wilder. It’s bonkers.

Other clubs seem to manage, ones with a lot less £. Asking for 5 players who fit a specifuc profile is not a lot of data. It's not as simple as blame. United are making a conscious choice in which pond they fish in.

Wilder wants UK players. Specifically, he wants neat and tidy footballers who'll fit into his style of management. Like I said, it's served him well through his career. But you do need athletes and UK based ones are either shit or £££

 

[Houston_Blade]

But equally couldn’t that point to limitations in terms of scope of the scouting network as opposed to the lack of use of data?

It’s the competence of the people selecting players to go and watch that I question.

There aren’t many clubs with a dedicated army of scouts watching tonnes of games anymore, it’s not possible with the globalisation of the game. What there is, is a network of freelance scouts compiling information on footballers everywhere.

You need people with the nouse to tap into this network and use the information effectively.

I’m not sure Jamie Hoyland is that person, and the AI pisstake last season certainly wasn’t the way to go.

 

[Champagneblade]

Sometimes we are a bit harsh on the club. Easy to forget who our academy has produced over the years. Who has come through Bournemouth’s in contrast?

Before we batter United too much, is it not fair to point out how we brought Ndiaye into the club very unconventionally and developed him for League football and eventual international and PL football? That’s far more impressive in terms of development and coaching than Kroupi especially when you consider the transition and patience required.

I’d also say that this kid at Bournemouth has done great but was it really an impossible find? He scored 22 goals the other year in Ligue 2 for a Lorient team that secured promotion.

Pretty sure a basic Championship Manager search would have found that; goals, filter by europe’s main countries and age below 20 and he’d have stuck out like a sore thumb, especially given goals are so visible.

It’s what he’s developed into through that PL platform that is impressive to me at least, rather than the discovery. Bournemouth gave him a platform and he’s thrived. What we did with Ndiaye is just as impressive if not more so, taking him from street football and developing him into the men’s game. I’d also say he is a generational talent and should leave Everton for a team than can win things.

Well before Watford came along and prior to him going to Germany, a mate of mine and I were admiring the potential of this lad, who played in a far less known league than Ligue 2:

Post in thread 'One To Watch'
https://www.s24su.com/forum/threads/one-to-watch.99222/post-5117369

He’d have been a decent pick up for us.

 

[Uganda Blade]

It looks to me that we have two barriers to being the type of club that identifies and recruits players like Kroupi or Irakundi:

1. As Carlton says above, Wilder wants UK players;
2. Although we've dabbled in wider recruitment in recent years (when Hecky got us promoted, and when Van Winkel was involved), it's been exactly that: dabbling rather than a strategic recruitment model.

When Wilder finally goes, we need an open-minded manager and a board serious about committing to a new recruitment model.

 

[3Cheers4Ramirez]

We need to just focus on mastering the domestic market, there's always more you can do. If we improved our current success rate 10% that would be very significant, and it should be possible

Positioning ourselves for the best youth loans is a good start. No repeat of last season's piss poor loan crop is acceptable

There were very easy, obvious permanent signings we could have picked up last summer that would have kept us towards the top of the league. We should obviously start there before going down more speculative foreign routes

 

[Nick Jansky]

Of all the ones to miss!!

And Hjelde, who was physically strong and barely got played.

 

[bornablade]

It's not that long ago that posters on here were taking the piss out of Brentford's strategy.

What did they call them 'The Business Model (or Plan) FC'?

 

[JOEYDEE]

Have we got the resource to process that amount of data?

I’ve no issue with people mumping about the outcome of the transfer processes, but it’s all fan fiction on here about how we get there - there’s limited insight about use of data or lack of, amount of adequate resource or lack of, or even the clubs or management teams general philosophy. All of which are interrelated I imagine.

Not attributing this to you, but one week people blame Bettis, the next Hoyland, the next Wilder. It’s bonkers.

I doubt we've even got the resource to download that amount of data !

 

[JOEYDEE]

We've not reached F in the alphabet with our data model yet... last i heard we were on B

Correct !
We tried using our search in Bulgarian and Peruvian leagues...hardly a hotbed of talent...