Should Blackwell have gone after the PO defeat?

[beechblade]

IN retrospect I believe Warnock lost it during the Prem League season with bad tactics, poor signings and no bottle (Aston Villa away)

He may have but that was when he got there. And you didn't really answered what I ask, did you believe the nearly moment we had first with Warnock was as far as he could take us?

It was two season after his first failed attempt to get us there, which I'm sure you know anyhow.

But the point is when Blackwell took over he had the fortunate circumstance of the parachute payments, yes we came close and yes it was another nearly moment, but now we have lost them he has to change and make his own team, not some reminiscent robbo signings team. The way the club has been structured now much like when Warnock missed his first oppurntity we are well in place to make a challenge, and that is what I'm after us challenging this season, we have to reprofile have to build a new style of team and have to at least give Blackwell this season to get us back in right shape. All this depends on whether he gets them back to playing basics and doing what they can getting results.
I love to see the ball tap around with a beauty and finese that makes us feel like were the best club in the world, but do you what I'll take more than that, winning games playing hard and giving us 110%.

I have confidence he can take us on the challenge again, but I also hope he gets the team playing a mixture of the raking passes (hoofball) and passing across the ground like Aresnal. Then he may achieve something making us all a little happier. There are issuses, but I'll back them because they are trying and not just showing up for the paycheck like Robbo.

 

[Meat Dagnetic]

I wouldn't see a squad containing Beattie, Hendrie, Naysmith, possibly Hulse, can't remember when he left, and a fit Ugo and Speed a shower. It was more of an achievement that Robson had got them playing so badly.

Whilst I appreciate he's done well in terms of results, I don't think £2m on Henderson (but that's another four dozen threads) and however much it was (reported to be over £1m) on Cotterill, who I didn't rate when he was on loan either, is good business, especially if he is working to a tight budget.

£2m for Henderson was surpriing at the time, but has to be considered given the situation back then - Beattie was injured, and Hulse couldnt hit a barn door (for whatever reason), and (I think) was in the last year of his contract. So he basically replaced Hulse with Henderson, given Hulse's (awful) form and contract situation (I think!) = reasonable business

 

[Fiery Blade]

In answer to your question I believe that in 2003 we were very unfortunate and eventually ran out of steam and firmly believed then that Warnock would and could take us up
I do not believe Blackwell has the same qualities as Warnock and I now believe that whilst he has not lost the dressing room some of the players are questioning his methods!

 

[beechblade]

Beauty of football is we all have differing views, I thank you for the answer, I'm not sure whether he can take us up but I feel he can challenge, and to be honest just at the moment I'm quiet happy with that, I don't feel he's lost the dressing room, I feel the team has lost itself getting over confident with lower placed teams expecting to walk over them and just show up to do so, which from my memory has always been our problem. We always play bad against those kind of teams, but against the better ones we raise our game, something I'd like to see done for all games.

One more question, who would you want to take his place at the moment? Bearing in mind Coppell has said he wouldn't manage up North, and I don't feel Speed has the experience yet.

 

[Fiery Blade]

Beauty of football is we all have differing views, I thank you for the answer, I'm not sure whether he can take us up but I feel he can challenge, and to be honest just at the moment I'm quiet happy with that, I don't feel he's lost the dressing room, I feel the team has lost itself getting over confident with lower placed teams expecting to walk over them and just show up to do so, which from my memory has always been our problem. We always play bad against those kind of teams, but against the better ones we raise our game, something I'd like to see done for all games.

One more question, who would you want to take his place at the moment? Bearing in mind Coppell has said he wouldn't manage up North, and I don't feel Speed has the experience yet.

My personal view would be to install Gary Speed as manager alongside a more experienced director of football (or other title) such as Terry Venables, Graham Taylor etc)

 

[beechblade]

My personal view would be to install Gary Speed as manager alongside a more experienced director of football (or other title) such as Terry Venables, Graham Taylor etc)

I don't want a director of football myself, I see know use for the position, it will cause conflict within the club, not to mention an extra large wage that we could do without. I don't feel its beneifical to us financially at this point, the club has had to cut wages as it is, why add to this with a DOF, you have to think about realistically, the director of football, will get knowwhere on a limited budjet, that we are already using no matter how good his contacts are.

Thats also a problem that fans may see this as ambition were in truth it shows nosense whatsoever financially at this point.

As for Speed not ready, he may do good, or he may just tank like John Barnes, as for tanking its a risk we can't take, possible financial problems or just not working, the best footballers don't always make the best managers, Speed needs at least another season or 2 as a coach before he's quite ready for that IMO.

 

[Fiery Blade]

Speed has excellent connections and would persuade decent players to the club - at least Robson did that!
He has also played at the very top for a very long time with the top players.
I believe the experienced sidekick (whatever his title) would give hime the benefit of his experience and given we are paying Sam Ellis and Andy Leaning if we dispense with their services that should fund such a position.
PS Why do we have Andy leaning as G/K coach when Simon Tracey has just moved to Barnsley - surely he must be a better option!

 

[bricktop]

I think he have to be very careful with Blackwell and where we tread.

Three teams have come down with parachute payments and look like they will all stay the course which means the breakthrough to the top two will almost certianly be a lot harder this season than last.

Make no bones about it, this is going to be hard to get promotion this season, and at the moment we are 6th, and are still in touching distance of the top two, that for me does not represent a bad start to the season.

I would like to see Blackwell get the full support of everyone for the rest of the season and see what he can do, i really fancy our side this season to be in the mix in the play offs this season, and then we still stand every chance, and hopefully we can break our hoodoo this season.

Changing manager at the moment would be stupid, as i think our results would dip off this season as players adapt to new systems and the new people in charge, and of course there is always the fact it will not be their team until quite a few changes have been made. Changing manager always works for under-performing sides but we are not at that stage at the moment and i think we would be better served with continuity.

 

[Meat Dagnetic]

not sure I follow fella. Whilst I agree Warnock cocked up somewhat at the end of the premeirship season, I'm not sure what that's got to do with Blackwell and the here and now?

UTB

yep sorry....it's a fair cop - it doesn't have much to do with it (just responding to what Fiery posted - thats a whole different thread....)

 

[Meat Dagnetic]

I think he have to be very careful with Blackwell and where we tread.

Three teams have come down with parachute payments and look like they will all stay the course which means the breakthrough to the top two will almost certianly be a lot harder this season than last.

Make no bones about it, this is going to be hard to get promotion this season, and at the moment we are 6th, and are still in touching distance of the top two, that for me does not represent a bad start to the season.

I would like to see Blackwell get the full support of everyone for the rest of the season and see what he can do, i really fancy our side this season to be in the mix in the play offs this season, and then we still stand every chance, and hopefully we can break our hoodoo this season.

Changing manager at the moment would be stupid, as i think our results would dip off this season as players adapt to new systems and the new people in charge, and of course there is always the fact it will not be their team until quite a few changes have been made. Changing manager always works for under-performing sides but we are not at that stage at the moment and i think we would be better served with continuity.

Totally agree with this.....but I'd go further - I fancy United to score more points than they did last season, and there's a long way to go before the top 2 are nailed down.

Sacking Blackwell, his backroom staff, and hiring Speed as manager with Terry Venables as a DoF is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in my opinion

 

[happyhippy]

Everyone remembers his interview after the defeat. Maybe the powers that be should have said yes, let him go. And we will start afresh with a clean slate.

As good as his record was last season in getting us to the play off final his style of play was dirided all season and there were plenty of people who would'nt have been sorry for him to go.

So whats your take on things?

Personally i think he did a good job in getting us to the final. But after the defeat he should have gone.

And who would we have got instead?

Our last two enforced managerial changes (by results) have brought managers in whom nobody had confidence or trust. Those two being St Neil, and King Kev II.

In the interim, Barny Sornob was brought in after St Neil walked/was sacked/was hounded out. I'm not convinced that his departure was needed or in a lot of places wanted.

Short of Kendall, who have United ever been able to attract who would have kept the new glory hunters happy (many weren't sure about him either, and he was the biggest name we've ever had, post-war at least)?

Just who could we have got to replace Blackie?

 

[Paqamaq]

he should have killed himself after we were relegated the other night

Thanks. Just cheered me right up.

 

[Bladesway]

My personal view would be to install Gary Speed as manager alongside a more experienced director of football (or other title) such as Terry Venables, Graham Taylor etc)

Oh for gods sake. One a cocknee spiv and the other the originator of big boot. Mmmm, and you think things are bad now?

Perhaps if everyone got off Blackwells and the players backs and just supported the team we could go somewhere. Remember 02/03 when there was no real expectation until the end?

Oh and Fiery, when Warnock lost the play off it was running out of steam, Blackwell loses it and it's bottling it? What was your excuse for Howard Kendall back in the 90's? Never seen a team lose its bottle more than on that day in Cardiff against Wolves by the way.

You would be surprised what a bit of optimism can do for a team from its supporters.

FWIW I would give Blackwell the season. No booing, no hammering the team every time we lose, no constant "our dog could do better" rubbish. If he doesn't get us promoted by then he goes. If he does, everyone shuts their cake and we move on?

Speed would be an ideal replacement, but you would need to lower your expectations again for a couple of years minimum. I don't think many of our fans are capable of that level of patience any longer.

 

[Fiery Blade]

Probably to everyones surprise I have never championed Blackwell to be sacked - Wanted him to resign -Yes
His record doesn't deserve the sack - a similar scenario to Tranmere last season when Ronnie Moore was sacked for failing to get in the play offs with a last minute goal!
I have never booed Blackwell or go to the game shouting for his head etc
I just do not think he is the man to lead us to the Premier League, his tactics are questionable, his style of football is generally very poor and one dimensional,his signings (ie Cresswell!), his back room staff (Speed excepted) lacks imagination and quality, his man management is poor and his arrogance is beyond belief but I will agree his results have been ok in the general scheme of things.
I also believe that the team of 2003 did run out of steam but yes Warnock did bottle it in the play off final at Cardiff with his selection of Rankin and his omission of Windass.
All I ever wanted for United is to perform on a stage they were capable of I believe the set up and generally the team should be playing PL not CCC and if Stoke, Burnley, Birmingham, Bolton, Wigan, Wolves etc can then surely it is not too much to aspire to compete at the same level or is that expecting too much!

 

[Robbie]

Anybody would think that Blackwell lost two play-off finals on purpose.

I dont think that.

I believe he was tactically naive against Burnley, and didn't learn from the previous 2 losses against them last season.

Just who could we have got to replace Blackie?

Ian Holloway? that's one viable option.

 

[beightonblade]

Anybody would think that Blackwell lost two play-off finals on purpose. Given the choice between promotion to the Premier League and a miserable coach trip home would anybody in their right mind choose the latter?

Bang on the money there ! ............
he's trying his best ..............thats what concerns me !

 

[Revolution]

I also believe that the team of 2003 did run out of steam but yes Warnock did bottle it in the play off final at Cardiff with his selection of Rankin and his omission of Windass.

This is tangential to ther main topic of the thread, but whilst you're right about Rankine, having watched Windass mail in poor performances for 2 straight months, culminating in his shocking 1st half performance in the Forest home game, I think Warnock was 100% right to leave him out. I've never understood why people regard this as such a big blunder given how badly Windass was playing.

He certainly wouldn't have assisted in correcting the main problem that day, i.e 3 of the back 4 choosing the most important game of the season to give their worst performances.

"I believe he was tactically naive against Burnley, and didn't learn from the previous 2 losses against them last season."

Bang on the money. The playoff final was a replay of the Burnley away game in a bigger stadium.

 

[Fiery Blade]

Clarke Carlisle didn't perform half as well against Defoe and Keane when the ball was played to feet rather than lump it up front!

 

[Robbie]

Clarke Carlisle didn't perform half as well against Defoe and Keane when the ball was played to feet rather than lump it up front!

Whilst the comparisons are very different ni the calibre of players, you are indeed correct. Carlisle loved every second of winning the ball in the air time after time.

 

[Dog Blade]

Yes he should have gone, and McCabe should have ensured his offer to go was taken.

We are a club that even in the current financial crisis is equipped to progress - IF the manager had a clue on what he was doing and had respect in the game so that he could pull the right players in.

As for Speed coming in and the fans having to lower expectations, well I for one would be able to do that as I may at least be able to see what he is trying to achieve. I can't with our current manager.

 

[Meat Dagnetic]

Probably to everyones surprise I have never championed Blackwell to be sacked - Wanted him to resign -Yes
His record doesn't deserve the sack - a similar scenario to Tranmere last season when Ronnie Moore was sacked for failing to get in the play offs with a last minute goal!
I have never booed Blackwell or go to the game shouting for his head etc
I just do not think he is the man to lead us to the Premier League, his tactics are questionable, his style of football is generally very poor and one dimensional,his signings (ie Cresswell!), his back room staff (Speed excepted) lacks imagination and quality, his man management is poor and his arrogance is beyond belief but I will agree his results have been ok in the general scheme of things.
QUOTE]

I'd query pretty much everything you say above:
- His tactics and style of football have delivered outstanding results in my opinion, particularly considering he's had to more or less totally change his squad in 18 months
- You give Cresswell as an example of a bad signing - the guy's had less than one game and he's already a failure. I know a lad who supports stoke, and the first thing he said was "he'll do a good job for you". Can we not give the guy a chance before we hang him out to dry. Also, he deserves some credit for the good signings he's made: Ward, Treacy, Halford, off the top of my head
- You have no evidence to back up your suggestion that his backroom staff lack imagination and quality, other than the style of football that he chooses to play. The results that he and his backroom staff have delivered suggest they actually do know what they're doing (even if the style of football sometimes isn't to everyone's taste)
- Ditto for his apparent lack of man-management skills....
- Arrogance? I don't understand what you mean by this, I assume its that he can be a bit chippy in interviews. If so, to be honest, if I delivered the results in the circumstances that he has, with nothing but grief whenever we fail to win a game playing total football, I'd be pissed off too

 

[Fiery Blade]

Probably to everyones surprise I have never championed Blackwell to be sacked - Wanted him to resign -Yes
His record doesn't deserve the sack - a similar scenario to Tranmere last season when Ronnie Moore was sacked for failing to get in the play offs with a last minute goal!
I have never booed Blackwell or go to the game shouting for his head etc
I just do not think he is the man to lead us to the Premier League, his tactics are questionable, his style of football is generally very poor and one dimensional,his signings (ie Cresswell!), his back room staff (Speed excepted) lacks imagination and quality, his man management is poor and his arrogance is beyond belief but I will agree his results have been ok in the general scheme of things.
QUOTE]

I'd query pretty much everything you say above:
- His tactics and style of football have delivered outstanding results in my opinion, particularly considering he's had to more or less totally change his squad in 18 months
- You give Cresswell as an example of a bad signing - the guy's had less than one game and he's already a failure. I know a lad who supports stoke, and the first thing he said was "he'll do a good job for you". Can we not give the guy a chance before we hang him out to dry. Also, he deserves some credit for the good signings he's made: Ward, Treacy, Halford, off the top of my head
- You have no evidence to back up your suggestion that his backroom staff lack imagination and quality, other than the style of football that he chooses to play. The results that he and his backroom staff have delivered suggest they actually do know what they're doing (even if the style of football sometimes isn't to everyone's taste)
- Ditto for his apparent lack of man-management skills....
- Arrogance? I don't understand what you mean by this, I assume its that he can be a bit chippy in interviews. If so, to be honest, if I delivered the results in the circumstances that he has, with nothing but grief whenever we fail to win a game playing total football, I'd be pissed off too

Obviously, our opinions differ but I would question your comment 'outstanding results' not in a month of Sundays have we had 'Outstanding Results' I will agree that his away record last season was excellent and we ground some fantastic results but I do not consider Wendy (a) lost
Wendy (h) lost, Donny (h) lost Reading (h) lost, Wolves (h) lost, 10 man Forest (h) drew, 10 man Blackpool (h) drew, Burnley (h) lost, Southampton (h) drew, Coventry (h) drew - that is 26 points lost off the top of my head.
We failed to go up in an ordinary league last season due to some woeful home performances and whilst I do not expect them to win every home game we cannot call BDTBL a fortress any longer!
Man Management Eg Cotterill, Hendrie, Carney all prospered NOT with Mr Blackwells help
Backroom Staff: Andy Leaning and Sam Ellis - Say no more
Arrogance: 'I tell them what to do - if they choose to do something different What can I do' quote after Port Vale match - cannot remember Cloughie or Ferguson ever using that as an excuse!

 

[Dog Blade]

And I'd probably go the other way Meat...as I do agree with just about all Fiery has stated

You may not always get 'evidence' to back up every suggestion - football is emotive and often feelings, thoughts, opinions etc are right...

Will we progress and move forward with Blackwell - I think not
Will we regret McCabe's two mistakes (Robson and Blackwell) in a few years time when we are a struggling Championship side (at best) with crowds of 18k (at best) - I think so

Hire slowly....fire quickly?

 

[davidpinder]

blackwell will not get sacked he is a yes man and McCabe would have to give a new manager money to spend and a bigger wage budget so get used to him being around for a while yet unless we get relegated and by the time that happens McCabe will be long gone. Not saying i want him to go (blackie) but if we fail to make top 6 then i will change my mind

 

[Meat Dagnetic]

Obviously, our opinions differ but I would question your comment 'outstanding results' not in a month of Sundays have we had 'Outstanding Results' I will agree that his away record last season was excellent and we ground some fantastic results but I do not consider Wendy (a) lost
Wendy (h) lost, Donny (h) lost Reading (h) lost, Wolves (h) lost, 10 man Forest (h) drew, 10 man Blackpool (h) drew, Burnley (h) lost, Southampton (h) drew, Coventry (h) drew - that is 26 points lost off the top of my head.
We failed to go up in an ordinary league last season due to some woeful home performances and whilst I do not expect them to win every home game we cannot call BDTBL a fortress any longer!
Man Management Eg Cotterill, Hendrie, Carney all prospered NOT with Mr Blackwells help
Backroom Staff: Andy Leaning and Sam Ellis - Say no more
Arrogance: 'I tell them what to do - if they choose to do something different What can I do' quote after Port Vale match - cannot remember Cloughie or Ferguson ever using that as an excuse!

Basically then your opinion of the manager is based on him not being able to make his players win every game / his management of 2 joke signings (hendrie and carney), i think cotterills all round game has improved under blackwell / and a throwaway comment he made after a game.

Tbh, I really dont understand your problem with andy leaning and sam ellis - "say no more" isnt really constructive criticism

 

[Meat Dagnetic]

You may not always get 'evidence' to back up every suggestion - football is emotive and often feelings, thoughts, opinions etc are right...

No wonder the whole atmosphere around the club is in the state its in when people decide that kneejerk reactionary drivel is the way to go (rather than actually thinking about what the problem is)

Sheffield United - no place for rational logic and evidence at the minute then....

 

[Dog Blade]

Didn't go up last year
Don't think we'll go up this year
Don't think we'll move forward on the park
Don't think I'll see a decent game of football again this season

That's my knee jerk rational logic. IF I was chairman (and I think ours is brilliant generally) I'd be doing something BEFORE it is too late. That approach would mean we'd never know how far down Blackwell will take us, but it's the approach I'd take.

Each to their own and see where we are in a year or two. Hope I'm wrong and I'll be delighted to buy the pints if I am...

 

[Fiery Blade]

I agree DogBlade and I for one don't want to see another failure before I could say ' I told you so'
But, to all these 'Rose Tinted Specs' Brigade if tomorrow United come out and play the type of football they played against Preston last year in the Play Off semi then I would eat humble pie
Somehow unfortunately, I don't think so
Prove me wrong Blackwell Get them playing!!!

 

[Ollessendro]

I personally think Blackie will throw the towel in if he doesn't take us ip this year.

 

[blades1889]

blackwell can fuk off f all i care its not gd football i watching it shit long ball. And where the fuck is midfield
blackwell out.