Sheffield United's academy restructure bears fruit

[raul]

Gentlemen. Firstly thank you all for such an interesting thread.

One for the regular watchers- given the way the PL have bullied clubs into the compensation system , would the Academy still be viable if we didn't get to pick up " the best of the rest" from elsewhere ?

 

[Fraggle Blade]

Clubs with good academies were shafted by the the other EFL clubs when the Premier league offered the cash to change the system and payment systems for academy players.
Obviously the large majority of clubs without academies or unsuccessful ones voted to take the cash on offer and left the others without the abilty to reap the rewards of cashing in on talent raised over many years in their academy.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

The academy isn't working for us - after 6 years or whatever it was in the third division we are now in the second and once again, preparation for the new season is marred by selling one of our best players (certainly the most entertaining).

Bournemouth's academy system IS working for them .... have they even got one? if they haven't, it's working for them, they are in the top league and seem to have poached a player from whom, I suspect they'll make at least £40M when they sell him on in a year, probably to Madrid or City.

We'll have the annual ritual hand wringing from the club .... 'we couldn't keep him, he wanted to leave' .... probably because he'll be much better paid at mighty Bournemouth .... but do the math -

if we pay him £40K per week, then in a year that will be £2M on his salary give or take. So we pay him for 2 seasons at that rate and it's £4million on his wages.
But we are more likely to have gone up with him and even if we haven't, he'll have been a regular player and his value will have risen to at least £20M (gifted championship forward price) or probably about £50M (watch what Bournemouth sell him for in a year's time) - that's how penny pinching makes no sense in football ...... and if people are daft enough to think that we ever invest wisely or that £12M is good value for a player of Brooks' ability ... well, the stats don't lie - we haven't won anything since 1926.

and if someone says ... yes, but that doesn't fit into our wage structure - well, the wage structure doesn't support the concept of our getting to the Premiership or ever winning anything - does it?

again, we haven't won anything on living memory and we have only played top flight football sporadically in the past 40 years - it's pathetic.

All valid points BUT…..


Investing heavily in players assuming they will take you on or be worth a fortune in the future is a gamble (Slew, De Girolamo etc. each touted as the next big thing- imagine if we had paid them big money to keep them. We’d be millions worse off). We can only gamble what we can afford to lose. If Brooks ruptures his ACL and becomes worth nothing, sat on £40k a week, we’d be in the shit. As long as we don’t have owners bringing serious investment to the table, we can’t compete with teams gunning for the Prem. We’re reliant on Wilder continuing to pull rabbits out of hats and of the £12 million coming in, we just have to hope that from the share he is given, he can find players who go on to be worth far more than we paid for them (like JOC, Fleck, Duffy, Clarke etc.).

 

[1danewhitehouse]

which he will inevitably learn. He is much the best player we've shipped out since Currie. (possible exception of Sabella) the only other one that comes close is of course Walker though right-backs come cheaper & how do you value the cost of coming up against a player sold for about £2M in a league cup semi-final that we lost btw?

Deano?

Still the sale that hurt me the most….. twice.



Was like a kid at Christmas when we brought him back only for it all to be ripped away again about 8 months later.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I was conceding you that one, without checking I wouldn't know who was bought as a direct result of off-loading DCL ... we sure as hell got NO enjoyment from watching him play at the Lane.



You tell me? do they receive FA funding?

They receive funding from PL clubs as part of the EPPP program. That’s the trade-off for Prem clubs being able to nick their kids for less than they previously could.


I suspect when you consider sales and for some clubs, the odd player sticking around in their first team, it's worth doing on balance. I think United have gone in the right direction targeting kids released from other academies and bringing them on too. Ramsdale and Brooks have made us around £13 million in 2 years. Sure I'd prefer to keep them but that doesn't mean there's no point in undertaking the exercise. We need to put the proceeds to better use than we have in the past though. That aspect seems to have improved under WIlder. Long may it continue.

 

[vorpal blade]

Yep, I discovered this on reading about the EPPP.

and I mentioned Deane earlier as possibly the best investment United ever made .......

I still think given that all the players we have farmed out are in teams that are often direct competitors its a moot point as to whether it does us any good financially

- Walker and Naughton went to Spurs who prevented us getting to a League Cup Final, didn't Walker score against us for Villa? What happens if we play Bournemouth in the FA Cup fifth round and Brooks scores, how many millions in income might that deprive of us? Maguire at Leicester when they caned us at Bramall Lane?

I'm sure agents prefer to sell from us to teams like Hull or Bournemouth because they in turn will have to sell on, & they make money every time a player is sold. It's a murky business ...

 

[nopigfansintown]

Yes, sorry NoPigFans in Town .....

I do think I read your previous posts and I broadly agree with you although I don't think there is a way that a man as versed in the ways of football as Wilder is, can judge that Brooks is at his peak ....

I repost the link you put up originally, it's very informative and it goes along with my suggestion that we scrap our academy;

http://trainingground.guru/articles/dean-hoyle-entire-academy-system-has-to-change

there is a link within this article to this article

https://www.premierleague.com/youth/EPPP

which I think paints the whole academy structure as (exclusively) for the benefit of the Premier League clubs which is what I sense it exists for.
I also think the riches of the Premier League few has led to a market system in which we (little clubs) are treated like wholesalers when it comes to buying players.
Had Brooks remained at City, then in as parallel a situation as can be imagined, he would have been sold for double (at least) I reckon. Because the Premier League teams are retailers of players.

Constantly in a state of near collapse because of players' wages, the smaller teams (like us) just have a never ending fire-sale of our best stock.
We are Twelve million Poundworld - and the Premier clubs know it.

Our academy has prospered post EPPP, which was the point of the opening post. No business is going to close down the profitable parts of a business (the academy) when they are subsiding the non profitable parts (1st team football).The situation at Huddersfield, and elsewhere, is different - their academies have failed to remain productive post EPPP. In May 16 I'd have largely shared Hoyle's opinion, with one subtle difference. My opinion was you either put the extra money in for Cat One or you shut the white elephant down. We've seen clubs move to category one (I believe Norwich are in the process of doing this); clubs downgrade from category two to category three (or below); and teams scrap their academies altogether. Our academy is a bargain post EPPP.. When I asked McCabe whether we'd upgrade to category one in May 16, he said they'd consider it if and when we were back in the Championship.I now find this unlikely, as why spend a lot of extra money on something that is already profitable? He (and Binnion) also explained that we would be actively targeting older players to finish their academy careers at United, rather than lads coming through the traditional route.This has happened and it has borne fruit.
If United are getting a first team training ground, and subsidies for the first team for 1.2 million per annum; they'd be mad to close it.
We also get the odd player, in most cases not for long alas.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Gentlemen. Firstly thank you all for such an interesting thread.

One for the regular watchers- given the way the PL have bullied clubs into the compensation system , would the Academy still be viable if we didn't get to pick up " the best of the rest" from elsewhere ?

In a word: no. Thankfully, Binnion and McCabe are well aware of this

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

I'm sorry to say this because I used to know him fairly well, but McCabe has to be moved on.

He is penny-pinching and unambitious or too daft to realise that you can't be ambitious and penny-pinching at the same time.

I thought we had two owners each holding 50% of the club. I think it’s a bit unfair just to put the blame on McCabe.
You’re assuming that Wilder wasn’t involved in the sale or asked for his opinion.
I agree Brooks looks a good player in the making but he’s still a gamble whoever he plays for.

 

[vorpal blade]

I don't think Brooks is any sort of gamble whatsoever.

As for the ownership question ..... does anyone know how that was resolved or if it actually has been resolved at all? I don't know but may be wrongly, I sort of assumed it was mainly up to McCabe as it seems so much like the annual cut price sell off of the best stock we have always had with him at the helm??

Is everyone sure Wilder is happy about this - has he said something that I've missed in an interview?

 

[SW12 to S12 to S18]

I don't think Brooks is any sort of gamble whatsoever.

As for the ownership question ..... does anyone know how that was resolved or if it actually has been resolved at all? I don't know but may be wrongly, I sort of assumed it was mainly up to McCabe as it seems so much like the annual cut price sell off of the best stock we have always had with him at the helm??

Is everyone sure Wilder is happy about this - has he said something that I've missed in an interview?

I certainly don’t know whether Wilder was involved with any of this but it would seem unlikely that he wasn’t. If I was in his shoes I would be very angry if one of my squad was sold behind my back. He’s just signed an extended contract so I can’t imagine the owners taking descisions like this without his involvement. There’s no sense in upsetting the manager who’s just signed a contract with assurances about extra cash for team strengthening by pulling the rug from under his feet.
I’m in the dark as to the ownership squabble outcome as well, I agree that in the past McCabe seems to have been the instigator behind player sales, I assumed this cannot be the case now due to duel ownership.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Back fence.




Well done McCabe and Travis I say.....

 

[Silent Blade]

Yes, sorry NoPigFans in Town .....

I do think I read your previous posts and I broadly agree with you although I don't think there is a way that a man as versed in the ways of football as Wilder is, can judge that Brooks is at his peak ....

I repost the link you put up originally, it's very informative and it goes along with my suggestion that we scrap our academy;

http://trainingground.guru/articles/dean-hoyle-entire-academy-system-has-to-change

there is a link within this article to this article

https://www.premierleague.com/youth/EPPP

which I think paints the whole academy structure as (exclusively) for the benefit of the Premier League clubs which is what I sense it exists for.
I also think the riches of the Premier League few has led to a market system in which we (little clubs) are treated like wholesalers when it comes to buying players.
Had Brooks remained at City, then in as parallel a situation as can be imagined, he would have been sold for double (at least) I reckon. Because the Premier League teams are retailers of players.

Constantly in a state of near collapse because of players' wages, the smaller teams (like us) just have a never ending fire-sale of our best stock.
We are Twelve million Poundworld - and the Premier clubs know it.

There is a lot I do agree with Dean Hoyle and for years I have been sceptical about us having an Academy BUT we have received much more money in selling Academy players than Huddersfield have so I was wrong in some ways. Not sure if we will receive as much money in the next few years after Brooks has been sold. I think it has been a combination of good scouting, coaching and luck in our part but the real purpose of having an Academy is to produce players who are good enough to play in the top division and boost our chances to get promotion. Looking at the big picture we have had only one season in the PL since we had the Academy in 2001.

It made me laugh that two years ago Chansiri has poured in more money to upgrade their Academy and so far they have received only £159,000 in selling Hirst!