Sheffield United's academy restructure bears fruit

[vorpal blade]

Your wasting your time

please try to keep this polite

 

[BushBlade]

How much do you think McCabe will ‘take out of the club’ from the Brooks transfer? And whose family is ‘billionairish’?

It doesn’t matter. People say football is a religion and it is. With religion, you’re expected to believe in things, to have faith in things that are totally unproven, sometimes things that actually contradict the available evidence. Football is no different. It doesn’t matter how many times people point out the financial realities of being in the championship, some people will just ignore it and carrying on believing the same things they always have.

If there are people around who genuinely believe the earth is flat (and there are) how do you expect to convince people, with nothing but logic and evidence, that McCabe isn’t having us all over, when they truly believe in their hearts that he is? You may as well stand on your doorstep explaining to Jehovah’s Winesses why they’re wrong.

 

[Chali 2na]

please try to keep this polite

You haven't been very polite to the McCabes....

 

[vorpal blade]

No, although I have stated that personally I like him .... I used to sit next to him in the director's box at his invitation.

I think though, by now, the ownership of SUFC by that dynasty cannot take the club any further.

A new ethos has to be given a chance only because we are a failing club. And I'm no snob regards which team is 'bigger' than which other - clearly Bournemouth are a 'bigger' club than ours at the moment,my point is, that a city the size of Sheffield ought to have more successful clubs than it does and that is non-controversial. What would Liverpudlians or Mancunians think if their teams (red & blue) were perpetually in the state the Sheffield ones are in?

 

[BushBlade]

You haven't been very polite to the McCabes....

Tbf, KM has shown that without a good manager to point him in the right direction he isn’t a particularly effective owner and I tend to agree with the penny wise pound foolish statement. His attempts to save money have often ended up costing him more in the long run and his involvement with the Prince was always likely to end up in acrimony. I said it in BM at the time.

But he’s the reality. There isn’t anyone else at the moment. There’s no benefactor waiting in the wings, just a faint possibility that we might get bought out by someone who isn’t completely naive, like Wolves did, and a greater likelihood that we’ll be bought by a Chansiri, a Dr Xia, all those Leeds owners etc.

It’s far from ideal, which is why there’s plenty of scope for criticism, even if the criticism doesn’t come with real life solutions.

 

[vorpal blade]

surely, His Royal Highness Prince Abdullah Bin Mosa'ad Abdulaziz Al Saud is that benefactor (with some mates) who is waiting in the wings?

 

[stringer]

The family McCabe is that to which I refer (I don't know if they have billions or merely millions).

I've no idea what their cut is, have you?

It won't be a direct cut, it'll be measured by how much less they feel they have to subsidise the club having sold him. But the gist of my argument is that they are 'pennywise, pound foolish' - that is the probably the manner in which they made their fortune. After all isn't Kevin a QS originally, the person who tries to cut construction costs in a building project?

Whose ‘cut’? If it’s the owners you refer to, they don’t take ‘a cut’

 

[snootyfenooty]

Vorpal's argument was that academies only serve the PL and that any other club with an academy "haven't really thought if it's worthwhile to them" and considered that they're "maybe just even fashion" - is that the point you are trying to make as well?




I'm afraid the "cultured" Vorpal Blade introduced the "stupid" hypothetical subject of offering Brooks £40k - not me.



Footballers wages and footballers transfer fees aren't proportional in many cases.

Unproven players who have a high value may earn modest ammount compared to aging footballers with little value. (Think John Terry and Jack Grealish as an example.)

If a fringe player (Brooks) was made the highest earner, I am completely sure that many of our key players (Fleck, Coutts, JOC) would feel aggrieved and want similar money - Do you disagree?



I wasnt asking if Everton would make a mark up. I asked if selling him and re-investing the fee improved the squad. Did it?

Cheers for having a go though.

Blimey, your posts aren't half long winded with this breaking up of quotes, they don't half take some getting through. Anyway, to answer a few points:

1. I don't care who started the argument, I was answering you
2. They are
3. Grealish will be paid more next season than Terry. You can't compare the past when one was relatively unknown and the other a prominent international player. Grealish was worth a fraction a year ago compared to what he's worth now. As is Brooks.
4. I answered why Brooks is worth more in my post preceding yours. Are you honestly saying any of those 3 players would fetch £30-40k pw elsewhere?

 

[Chali 2na]

No, although I have stated that personally I like him .... I used to sit next to him in the director's box at his invitation.

I think though, by now, the ownership of SUFC by that dynasty cannot take the club any further.

You think you're being polite? You accused him of extracting money/assets from the club:

"McCabe is now just trying to take what he can out of the club"

No wonder he stopped inviting you into his box...

 

[Chali 2na]

Tbf, KM has shown that without a good manager to point him in the right direction he isn’t a particularly effective owner and I tend to agree with the penny wise pound foolish statement. His attempts to save money have often ended up costing him more in the long run and his involvement with the Prince was always likely to end up in acrimony. I said it in BM at the time.

But he’s the reality. There isn’t anyone else at the moment. There’s no benefactor waiting in the wings, just a faint possibility that we might get bought out by someone who isn’t completely naive, like Wolves did, and a greater likelihood that we’ll be bought by a Chansiri, a Dr Xia, all those Leeds owners etc.

It’s far from ideal, which is why there’s plenty of scope for criticism, even if the criticism doesn’t come with real life solutions.

I haven't said he's a good owner Bush.

 

[vorpal blade]

Polite to you -

McCabe is 'big enough and ugly enough' to take criticism from a nonentity like me - he has a public persona that I do not usually - certainly not on this forum which we both inhabit under assumed names .... I assume.

 

[coolhandluke]

Please forgive me for the barely pardonable sin I'm about to make but ...... the money spent on our Academy during it's inception is the best money our Club has ever spent during the 40+ years I've been supporting them .

Thank you Mr McCabe for your for your visionary investment .

 

[Baw Heid]

I have watched our Academy for a good few years and I am a big fan of our system. We concentrate on a small number of lads and our coaches are able to develop them into fine players. When these boys set out on their career they are mostly Blades through and through, they are totally dedicated to one day playing at the Lane. unfortunately the financial system forces some to seek careers elsewhere where they receive a big wage but at best get put out on loan see Ramsdale playing at Chesterfield last year The only way to rectify the situation is to have a manager like Wilder who is totally focused on building a squad that will take us into the money without loosing the dressing room, I believe he will. If he needs to realise money to do this by capitalising on the young Academy products then that's OK by me. Our young professionals need to experience competitive football and since few will get that at United it make sense to sell or loan them out then we can see if they can be utilised by us or moved on. Not only does our academy run profitably but it also helps to fund our training facilities at Shirecliffe. In my humble opinion we would be much poorer in many ways without the Academy. I am sure Cw will spend the money the Academy has produced well and a great season will see us resolving the financial issues.

 

[vorpal blade]

I like your post Baw - even if I don't share your optimism for the forthcoming season.

 

[Deaneandagana]

Good thread & good debate, had Wilder not sanctioned the Brook’s sale or at least been in agreement to it, there would in my mind have been far greater fall out.

However, my jury is still out & I await with keen anticipation how the club reacts, what level of spend we exercise & what calibre of player we purchase - note League 1 players will not & do not cut it in the Championship.

McCabe has a track record for this strategy, I truly hope he has learned from previous mistakes.

 

[vorpal blade]

the money spent on our Academy during it's inception is the best money our Club has ever spent during the 40+ years I've been supporting them .

What about the purchase of Brian Deane ?

 

[Chali 2na]

This format any better for you?

Blimey, your posts aren't half long winded with this breaking up of quotes, they don't half take some getting through. Anyway, to answer a few points:

1. I don't care who started the argument, I was answering you - Well with all due respect, if you're not going to read the full discussion or take into account what I responded too, you can't expect me to reply.
2. They are - They're not: Gerrad Pique is paid more than Dembele at Barcelona, despite Demebele having a significantly higher market value. There are hundreds if not thousands more examples.
3. Grealish will be paid more next season than Terry. You can't compare the past when one was relatively unknown and the other a prominent international player. Grealish was worth a fraction a year ago compared to what he's worth now. As is Brooks. - As I said above, if you're not happy with this (perfectly legitmate) exmaple of players wages and transfer values not correlating, then there are plenty of others.
4. I answered why Brooks is worth more in my post preceding yours. Are you honestly saying any of those 3 players would fetch £30-40k pw elsewhere? - No, I'm not saying they would fetch that wage elsewhere, I'm saying that paying a fringe/unproven player double that of your key players is a recipe for disaster.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Here's a revolutionary idea regarding our academy players:

When the big clubs come sniffing why not loan the player to them? This could go one of two ways:

The club is impressed and will sign him, probably for a lot more than they were initially willing to pay, or

The player gets fucked about sitting on the bench or with the U23's and comes running back with his tail between his legs.

I should be getting paid for ideas like this.

 

[BushBlade]

I haven't said he's a good owner Bush.

I never said you did.

 

[Chali 2na]

I never said you did.

Then what were you trying to say in your response to me? I'm genuinely not sure.

 

[BushBlade]

Then what were you trying to say in your response to me? I'm genuinely not sure.

Sorry but getting involved in any kind of conversation with you is just too much like hard work these days. I used your comment to state my opinion on McCabe, I probably just should have started a new post rather than quote your post

I’m done with this board today, it’s sunny outside and I’ve got better things to do.

 

[snootyfenooty]

This format any better for you?

Nah, not really, small font italics give me migraine.

Anyway, you're just re-hashing the points I've already answered.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Sorry but getting involved in any kind of conversation with you is just too much like hard work these days.

He does wear you down after a while. I think he's esablade's long lost son.

 

[Chali 2na]

Sorry but getting involved in any kind of conversation with you is just too much like hard work these days. I used your comment to state my opinion on McCabe, I probably just should have started a new post rather than quote your post

I’m done with this board today, it’s sunny outside and I’ve got better things to do.

If you don't like getting into conversations with me, you should stop replying to my posts.

Have fun outside.

Nah, not really, small font italics give me migraine.

Anyway, you're just re-hashing the points I've already answered.

I'm not, I've given you two examples where you're wrong and you've ignored them.

 

[nopigfansintown]

is this an ironic jibe at another piece of bad business?

so we get at most 10% of his next sale? I haven't heard Wilder interviewed about this btw.

In what way does selling Brooks, who I believe is THE outstanding player of his age make ANY sense to SUFC?

I really feel that the ownership crisis should have reached a head and should have been sorted at the end of the season. It seems to me McCabe is now just trying to take what he can out of the club as some compensation for the funds he has sunk in. Fair enough but it is to the enormous detriment of the side - the period of McCabe's tenure has seen more export of talent than any other period in our history hasn't it? and look at the result - yet another season out of the top flight.

Should we support an owner who is happy with the mediocre status quo or one who might change the disastrously unambitious way this club has been run for years? - to me, though I personally like him, McCabe is a disaster for the club .... just look at the evidence. And don't spare any tears for a billionairish family wanting to recoup losses milllion by million.

Yet again, he has deprived us of the chance to watch an outstandingly entertaining footballer - as for those who have already bought season tickets, it's like booking a holiday in a ***** hotel with a sea view and finding yourself instead staying in a garret looking out onto a back alley. It is a rip-off, unfair contract terms.

As for people saying Brooks is 'unproven' .... don't you trust the evidence of your own eyes?

As for people saying £12M is a good deal, well do you think we are now more or less likely to win promotion?

Do you think Wilder is now more or less likely to leave the club?

"Is this an ironic jibe at another piece of bad business?" Well, that depends on how the money is used.For me there is not enough of it to get the three or four top Championship players I'd have expected from Brooks' sale.He was always going to go eventually, but we were in a powerful position to determine the timescale - given his favourable contractual situation.
You're obviously unaware of my previous posts on this topic, so I'll reprise them.I think United are selling Brooks at least a year too early. I believe his value would most likely have doubled by this time next year. My point about the sell on clause, is that Wilder obviously agrees or why push for a sell on clause of 20-25% (the current rumours), instead of cold hard cash in the here and now. If Brooks has reached peak, or close to peak valuation - you take the cash in the here and now. It is Wilder's job to make that determination:.It's his job to determine the potential of Brooks using his expertise.I made the same point about Walker, DCL, Ramsdale, Maguire.I think a point that reinforces my view, is the fact he was sold to Bournemouth.Sure, they may have been the only bidder, but what selling to Bournemouth opens up is a pathway to a bigger club.We waited a long time for Walker to move on for good reason.There are few bigger clubs than Spurs in English and even European football. There are many bigger - and richer - than Bournemouth. A "sell on clause" has a much bigger chance of being activated.

 

[Maidenhead]

The academy isn't working for us - after 6 years or whatever it was in the third division we are now in the second and once again, preparation for the new season is marred by selling one of our best players (certainly the most entertaining).

Bournemouth's academy system IS working for them .... have they even got one? if they haven't, it's working for them, they are in the top league and seem to have poached a player from whom, I suspect they'll make at least £40M when they sell him on in a year, probably to Madrid or City.

We'll have the annual ritual hand wringing from the club .... 'we couldn't keep him, he wanted to leave' .... probably because he'll be much better paid at mighty Bournemouth .... but do the math -

if we pay him £40K per week, then in a year that will be £2M on his salary give or take. So we pay him for 2 seasons at that rate and it's £4million on his wages.
But we are more likely to have gone up with him and even if we haven't, he'll have been a regular player and his value will have risen to at least £20M (gifted championship forward price) or probably about £50M (watch what Bournemouth sell him for in a year's time) - that's how penny pinching makes no sense in football ...... and if people are daft enough to think that we ever invest wisely or that £12M is good value for a player of Brooks' ability ... well, the stats don't lie - we haven't won anything since 1926.

and if someone says ... yes, but that doesn't fit into our wage structure - well, the wage structure doesn't support the concept of our getting to the Premiership or ever winning anything - does it?

again, we haven't won anything on living memory and we have only played top flight football sporadically in the past 40 years - it's pathetic.

I'm glad you're not in charge.

We pay Brooks your £40k a week and there's a knock on CW's door.

It's Coutts.

CW Now then Paul, what can I do for you?
PC Hey gaffer I hear you're paying Brooksy £40k a week
CW Well his agent demanded it and we want to keep him
PC In that case I'd like the same. I think I bring more to the team than he does.
CW I'd love to give you it Couttsy but he's got loads more potential than you, so no can do.
PC In that case boss I'm going to have to fuck off and find a new club that values me for what I do, not what I might do, and by the way, Jack, Flecky, Duffs, Bash, Baldy, Clarkey and half a dozen other lads have formed a queue outside because they feel a bit like me.

A great manager you would be.

 

[snootyfenooty]

I'm glad you're not in charge.

We pay Brooks your £40k a week and there's a knock on CW's door.

It's Coutts.

CW Now then Paul, what can I do for you?
PC Hey gaffer I hear you're paying Brooksy £40k a wek
CW Well his agent demanded it and we want to keep him
PC In that case I'd like the same. I think I bring more to the team than he does.
CW I'd love to give you it Couttsy but he's got loads more potential than you, so no can do.
PC In that case boss I'm going to have to fuck off and find a new club that values me for what I do, not what I might do, and by the way, Jack, Flecky, Duffs, Bash, Baldy, Clarkey and half a dozen have formed a queue outside because they feel a bit like me.

A great manager you would be.

Conversation continued:

CW Next?
MD I want £40k pw like Brooksy
CW You wasn't even on £40k pa before I bought you. Fuck off. Next?
JF I want £40k pw like Brooksy or else
CW I'm not Ally McCoist. Talk to me like that again and you'll go through that door arse upwards. Next?
LC I want £40k pw like Brooksy
CW In a couple of years you'll be getting nearer £40 pw for your OAP. Next?
CB I want £40k pw like Brooksy
CW You'll be playing goalie next season if you don't shut the fuck up
CB Ooh, go on then, it's the only position I haven't tried yet

I'd be a great manager me!

 

[Yellarbellyblade]

Conversation continued:

CW Next?
MD I want £40k pw like Brooksy
CW You wasn't even on £40k pa before I bought you. Fuck off. Next?
JF I want £40k pw like Brooksy or else
CW I'm not Ally McCoist. Talk to me like that again and you'll go through that door arse upwards. Next?
LC I want £40k pw like Brooksy
CW In a couple of years you'll be getting nearer £40 pw for your OAP. Next?
CB I want £40k pw like Brooksy
CW You'll be playing goalie next season if you don't shut the fuck up
CB Ooh, go on then, it's the only position I haven't tried yet

I'd be a great manager me!

Mind you, you had better hope the academy was producing at that point because they’d be the only fuckers left!!!

 

[coolhandluke]

What about the purchase of Brian Deane ?

Even better than that mate .

To be fair though, the purchase of the tall lanky forward who nobody had heard of for 30 grand runs it a close second . It's just the fact that the Academy is the gift that just keeps giving .

 

[vorpal blade]

Yes, sorry NoPigFans in Town .....

I do think I read your previous posts and I broadly agree with you although I don't think there is a way that a man as versed in the ways of football as Wilder is, can judge that Brooks is at his peak ....

I repost the link you put up originally, it's very informative and it goes along with my suggestion that we scrap our academy;

http://trainingground.guru/articles/dean-hoyle-entire-academy-system-has-to-change

there is a link within this article to this article

https://www.premierleague.com/youth/EPPP

which I think paints the whole academy structure as (exclusively) for the benefit of the Premier League clubs which is what I sense it exists for.
I also think the riches of the Premier League few has led to a market system in which we (little clubs) are treated like wholesalers when it comes to buying players.
Had Brooks remained at City, then in as parallel a situation as can be imagined, he would have been sold for double (at least) I reckon. Because the Premier League teams are retailers of players.

Constantly in a state of near collapse because of players' wages, the smaller teams (like us) just have a never ending fire-sale of our best stock.
We are Twelve million Poundworld - and the Premier clubs know it.