Outgoing? SANDER BERGE ON WAY OUT ?

[Sheff de party]

I’m not saying they’re aren’t gems out there to be found in the lower divisions here or abroad because there are clubs find them all the time. But once a player is contracted to a club playing in a top European league prices sky rocket due to the level of competition they have produced it against. We did pay a premium for Brewster because he was contracted to a top six club he’d likely have cost brooks money had he been contracted to a championship club other than Brentford. If it was Brentford he wouldn’t have been for sale.

We paid a premium because we were desperate and Liverpool both knew that and don’t need to sell players.

 

[Yogi]

We paid a premium because we were desperate and Liverpool both knew that and don’t need to sell players.

Agreed if Liverpool had wanted shut of him asap of course we would’ve got him cheaper. But we paid the going rate for a young player out of Liverpool it was in the Jordan ibe, Dom solanke ball park. It’s hard to use other top six clubs for a reference as Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U don’t sell young fringe first team players with youth international caps they hoard them till their 26 have played next to no football then release them.

Did we over pay for him as player in terms of where he’s at in his development? Maybe but if he scores in the high teens next year in the champ probably not as a 21 year old with that kind of record would cost about what we paid. But we didn’t over pay in terms of where he came from we paid what appears to be market value.

 

[Sheff de party]

Agreed if Liverpool had wanted shut of him asap of course we would’ve got him cheaper. But we paid the going rate for a young player out of Liverpool it was in the Jordan ibe, Dom solanke ball park. It’s hard to use other top six clubs for a reference as Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U don’t sell young fringe first team players with youth international caps they hoard them till their 26 have played next to no football then release them.

Did we over pay for him as player in terms of where he’s at in his development? Maybe but if he scores in the high teens next year in the champ probably not as a 21 year old with that kind of record would cost about what we paid. But we didn’t over pay in terms of where he came from we paid what appears to be market value.

It’s not a question of his fee being £10m, £15m or £23m. The problem was again CW had money to spend and bought potential at a time when we needed someone proven and established.

He made the same mistake with Berge and when he looks back, he will regret both I think. I have no doubt Brewster will do well in the championship but I still don’t think it was a good idea to buy him

 

[Booker4]

It’s not a question of his fee being £10m, £15m or £23m. The problem was again CW had money to spend and bought potential at a time when we needed someone proven and established.

He made the same mistake with Berge and when he looks back, he will regret both I think. I have no doubt Brewster will do well in the championship but I still don’t think it was a good idea to buy him

I can see your point to a degree, but proven players cost higher wages. I can think of one decent alternative. Andre Ayew at Swansea always looks decent, and played with McBurnie. I reckon he would have been interested but he's reportedly on big wages from his PL days at West Ham and Swansea and would he take a drop to come to us? Proven players cost more in wages and if older have less sell on value.

 

[ancientblade]

It’s not a question of his fee being £10m, £15m or £23m. The problem was again CW had money to spend and bought potential at a time when we needed someone proven and established.

He made the same mistake with Berge and when he looks back, he will regret both I think. I have no doubt Brewster will do well in the championship but I still don’t think it was a good idea to buy him

your right but chris was expecting the same level of performance from the players that did so well last season and buying young potential should have improved the team further hindsights a funny thing and joc getting injured didnt help either although i do agree think he should have mixed it up by bringing established premier league players in but of course that costs big money and we just havent got it the only consolation is that we will have a very good championship squad next season and should be right up there imo also think rian brewster will get 20 plus goals for us utb fto

 

[Barney Rubble]

your right but chris was expecting the same level of performance from the players that did so well last season and buying young potential should have improved the team further hindsights a funny thing and joc getting injured didnt help either although i do agree think he should have mixed it up by bringing established premier league players in but of course that costs big money and we just havent got it the only consolation is that we will have a very good championship squad next season and should be right up there imo also think rian brewster will get 20 plus goals for us utb fto

I think you're right but I think that the policy of signing youth was taken at boardroom level.

My main criticism would be that we prioritised the wrong areas for improvement. I'd rather have given Kieran Freeman a new contract and kept RND and signed a centre half to replace Jags. Also I don't understand why we first targeted Swift and then didn't pursue anyone else for his position.
I would agree that by the time we realised JOC was out it was difficult to get a suitable replacement. Out of the players we were linked with I thought Kongolo was the outstanding option but unfortunately he was a crock. With hindsight even a more defensive player could have worked as it would have reduced the number of goals conceded down that side and made the option of playing 4 at the back more attractive .

 

[ancientblade]

I think you're right but I think that the policy of signing youth was taken at boardroom level.

My main criticism would be that we prioritised the wrong areas for improvement. I'd rather have given Kieran Freeman a new contract and kept RND and signed a centre half to replace Jags. Also I don't understand why we first targeted Swift and then didn't pursue anyone else for his position.
I would agree that by the time we realised JOC was out it was difficult to get a suitable replacement. Out of the players we were linked with I thought Kongolo was the outstanding option but unfortunately he was a crock. With hindsight even a more defensive player could have worked as it would have reduced the number of goals conceded down that side and made the option of playing 4 at the back more attractive .

yes the fact that we didnt bring any more midfielders in to supply our strikers is a bit of a mystery and maybe the 10m we spent on bogle and lowe would have been better spent in this area of course the manager or fans didnt know how inafective fleck and norwood would be this season their form has dipped alarmingly for some reason

 

[Fraggle Blade]

your right but chris was expecting the same level of performance from the players that did so well last season and buying young potential should have improved the team further hindsights a funny thing and joc getting injured didnt help either although i do agree think he should have mixed it up by bringing established premier league players in but of course that costs big money and we just havent got it the only consolation is that we will have a very good championship squad next season and should be right up there imo also think rian brewster will get 20 plus goals for us utb fto

Will we have a very good championship squad next season? We don't even look like a decent championship side atm.
Need a big shake up if we're going to start creating chances up top again.
McGoldrick going to be pushing 34, Sharp probably past it now, fleck and norwood looking a shadow of previous form, lundstrum gone, berge probably gone.
I just don't see how we are gonna create chances unless the whole midfield is replaced.

 

[ancientblade]

Will we have a very good championship squad next season? We don't even look like a decent championship side atm.
Need a big shake up if we're going to start creating chances up top again.
McGoldrick going to be pushing 34, Sharp probably past it now, fleck and norwood looking a shadow of previous form, lundstrum gone, berge probably gone.
I just don't see how we are gonna create chances unless the whole midfield is replaced.

massive difference between premier league and championship fraggle and apart from 2 games weve only been beaten by a single goal that form is good enough for a top 6 championship finish next season

 

[Fraggle Blade]

massive difference between premier league and championship fraggle and apart from 2 games weve only been beaten by a single goal that form is good enough for a top 6 championship finish next season

We've not looked like scoring much though. We may not concede much and be solid in championship, but its creating i'd be more worried about.

 

[yorkshirecoast]

We are far too slow for the PL. Teams now know they just have to hit it over the top or break on us quickly. This will still be a problem for us in the Championship unless we address the lack of pace at the back.

We also lack aerial power without JOC, as illustrated by the number of Sunday league standard headed goals we have given away.

Then there’s the even bigger problem of lack of creativity. Oh to have a tricky winger with pace - not going to happen with Wilder though.

 

[Yogi]

I think you're right but I think that the policy of signing youth was taken at boardroom level.

My main criticism would be that we prioritised the wrong areas for improvement. I'd rather have given Kieran Freeman a new contract and kept RND and signed a centre half to replace Jags. Also I don't understand why we first targeted Swift and then didn't pursue anyone else for his position.
I would agree that by the time we realised JOC was out it was difficult to get a suitable replacement. Out of the players we were linked with I thought Kongolo was the outstanding option but unfortunately he was a crock. With hindsight even a more defensive player could have worked as it would have reduced the number of goals conceded down that side and made the option of playing 4 at the back more attractive .

Hard to disagree with anything you’ve said there. I think the swift thing was us trying to capitalise on an opportunity we probably liked him as a player and viewed 4 mill as a bargain so tried to take advantage of the situation. As you say no pursuing other options in that position indicates it wasn’t a priority position to address.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Hard to disagree with anything you’ve said there. I think the swift thing was us trying to capitalise on an opportunity we probably liked him as a player and viewed 4 mill as a bargain so tried to take advantage of the situation. As you say no pursuing other options in that position indicates it wasn’t a priority position to address.

I think we misjudged the way the market would pan out. We may have thought that the loss of income due to Covid would see Championship clubs sell their assets at a cut price and that we could sign several promising players on the cheap.

This plan failed and we ended up overpaying for Brewster as we were running out of options as the deadline approached and had nothing left in the kitty for other weak areas of the squad.

Another poster made an additional valid point the other day regarding some of our signings - where we used to try to take the best players from teams below us we've bought a few players recently who were only fringe players at Championship level - Osborne, Robinson and Lowe all spring to mind. To expect them to perform in the Premier League was very optimistic.

 

[CaptainMorgans]

It's midfield that's going to need the biggest overhaul next season if we're going to have a dig at bouncing straight back up.

Some players I like at that level that may be affordable; Jed Wallace (RCM), George Saville (LCM), Nick Powell (CM), John Swift (RCM), Matt Grimes (CM), Lewis O'Brien (CM).

 

[Yogi]

I think we misjudged the way the market would pan out. We may have thought that the loss of income due to Covid would see Championship clubs sell their assets at a cut price and that we could sign several promising players on the cheap.

This plan failed and we ended up overpaying for Brewster as we were running out of options as the deadline approached and had nothing left in the kitty for other weak areas of the squad.

Another poster made an additional valid point the other day regarding some of our signings - where we used to try to take the best players from teams below us we've bought a few players recently who were only fringe players at Championship level - Osborne, Robinson and Lowe all spring to mind. To expect them to perform in the Premier League was very optimistic.

It’s all about funds available really best player out of league one costs what 1-2 million unless they’re a striker. Best player out of the champ is 15+ or 30 it seems if they’re a striker now.

We need to get clever with how we do business and build a core so we can go out a spend on a luxury player or two if we get back to the prem.

 

[ancientblade]

fleck and norwood should still be good enough for the championship if they stay they wont be up against international midfielders every week but we definetly need 2 more in osborn is not a midfielder for a start and we definetly need a goalscoring midfielder to come in

 

[Speedracer]

your right but chris was expecting the same level of performance from the players that did so well last season and buying young potential should have improved the team further hindsights a funny thing and joc getting injured didnt help either although i do agree think he should have mixed it up by bringing established premier league players in but of course that costs big money and we just havent got it the only consolation is that we will have a very good championship squad next season and should be right up there imo also think rian brewster will get 20 plus goals for us utb fto

Blimey AB you ever heard of commas and full stops mate?

 

[Arcott]

Currently out injured for God's knows how long and hasn't looked anything but average since the start of the season. Who's going to buy him? Unless we can get want we paid for him no point in selling

 

[Foody]

Currently out injured for God's knows how long and hasn't looked anything but average since the start of the season. Who's going to buy him? Unless we can get want we paid for him no point in selling

For me he's been our best midfielder, by quite a distance. At the start of the season I though he was quite comfortably our best player. To me he looked like a good player struggling to make an impact in a really poor side.

Off the ball he's struggled, but on it he's shown his qualities. In a more possession based side I think he'd look a real talent.

For me that's the difference between him and Ampadu. Berge has made mistakes but we've seen glimmers of a really good player, where Ampadu has made errors and rarely done anything of note.

Prior to his injury I thought he was the one player who we could turn a profit on. Just now I'd probably take what we paid, but that would be good value for someone.

 

[Yogi]

For me he's been our best midfielder, by quite a distance. At the start of the season I though he was quite comfortably our best player. To me he looked like a good player struggling to make an impact in a really poor side.

Off the ball he's struggled, but on it he's shown his qualities. In a more possession based side I think he'd look a real talent.

For me that's the difference between him and Ampadu. Berge has made mistakes but we've seen glimmers of a really good player, where Ampadu has made errors and rarely done anything of note.

Prior to his injury I thought he was the one player who we could turn a profit on. Just now I'd probably take what we paid, but that would be good value for someone.

in addition to being a better player which like you’ve said he is Berge is also our player any mistakes he makes and lessons he has to learn are for our benefit long term. We’re currently safety testing a player for Chelsea’s benefit any loanee should be making a positive contribution to us immediately not learning on the job.

 

[bonobo]

I think Berge was our midfield signing for the summer. If I remember Wilder at the time, as we were safe with regards Prem, they bought forward budget from summer 2020 because Berge was available. I think we would struggle to recoup more than the transfer fee on him this summer, especially as he would be just returning from injury. So, I am not so sure, he will be on his way. Both him and JOC. So, if he wants elsewhere and we want to cash in, the sell-on clause could be the key thing to look at.

 

[ancientblade]

I think Berge was our midfield signing for the summer. If I remember Wilder at the time, as we were safe with regards Prem, they bought forward budget from summer 2020 because Berge was available. I think we would struggle to recoup more than the transfer fee on him this summer, especially as he would be just returning from injury. So, I am not so sure, he will be on his way. Both him and JOC. So, if he wants elsewhere and we want to cash in, the sell-on clause could be the key thing to look at.

if berge and joc stay at the club what a boost that would be for our chances of coming straight back up

 

[bongleblade]

if berge and joc stay at the club what a boost that would be for our chances of coming straight back up

Berge would be a beast in the Championship... I really think the Summer will test the Prince's mettle... it's stick or twist time... stick with our epl side and give it a real go for promotion... adding a couple of decent additions where required.. or dismantle and rebuild. Feel a mix of both is required... I would take a goal of promotion in two seasons with sufficient rebuild in the process

 

[Yogi]

Berge would be a beast in the Championship... I really think the Summer will test the Prince's mettle... it's stick or twist time... stick with our epl side and give it a real go for promotion... adding a couple of decent additions where required.. or dismantle and rebuild. Feel a mix of both is required... I would take a goal of promotion in two seasons with sufficient rebuild in the process

For wilders sake it has to be bounce back in one go I don’t think elements of the fan base would tolerate anything else. With that in mind I don’t think two years is likely it’s either come back first time of asking with wilder or come back in the longer term under someone else once they’ve built the side in their image.

On the transfer front the two I can see getting interest a price we’d make a profit on would be Egan and baldock. Berge will get interest but not for much more than we paid I don’t think we’ll move him unless the player forces a move and no one is so much as taking a peek at O’Connell after his injury until jan at which point we’ll have a decent idea how the season is going.

 

[finlaytheblade]

Berge would be a beast in the Championship... I really think the Summer will test the Prince's mettle... it's stick or twist time... stick with our epl side and give it a real go for promotion... adding a couple of decent additions where required.. or dismantle and rebuild. Feel a mix of both is required... I would take a goal of promotion in two seasons with sufficient rebuild in the process

We have to look to bounce straight back the squad at present wouldnt do that .
With the right surgery and a bit of investment we could do it ,the squad as it is ,is not far off midfield is our main weakness.
Ok we dont score enough goals ! That is not totally the strikers fault as we dont create enough good chances which puts real pressure on the forwards to put them away when they come.
Even world class strikers miss good chances .
That is of course if Wilder cant pull off a miracle a d keep us up.

 

[Snowflake]

For wilders sake it has to be bounce back in one go I don’t think elements of the fan base would tolerate anything else. With that in mind I don’t think two years is likely it’s either come back first time of asking with wilder or come back in the longer term under someone else once they’ve built the side in their image.

On the transfer front the two I can see getting interest a price we’d make a profit on would be Egan and baldock. Berge will get interest but not for much more than we paid I don’t think we’ll move him unless the player forces a move and no one is so much as taking a peek at O’Connell after his injury until jan at which point we’ll have a decent idea how the season is going.

I don’t think we will be ready to survive if we come back at the first attempt
Two tears makes more sense

 

[Espania blade]

I don’t think we will be ready to survive if we come back at the first attempt
Two tears makes more sense

I think it depends on how many key players we can hang on to, as others have said.
The likes of JOC Egan Rammy (yes Rammy) Berge, we would be looking at another 100 point promotion season

 

[Fulwood Blade]

I don’t think we will be ready to survive if we come back at the first attempt
Two tears makes more sense

We obviously can't turn down the opportunity to go straight back up - but doing a West Brom (2 years) sounds better.

For me it's all about restructuring the midfield AND going back to a no:10 AND no tweaking it back to 352 if we went up again.

We have to learn from our mistakes.

UTB

 

[Kop sufferer]

I think that it's a fair assessment by all in this thread, just need to sequence the Covid madness into the equation

 

[Yogi]

I don’t think we will be ready to survive if we come back at the first attempt
Two tears makes more sense

I’m not so sure it depends on recruitment because I don’t foresee a mass exodus. Imo if we recruit 4 players for the first team and hit on them then we’re good to go 2 midfielders 1 DM 1 AM and 2 centrebacks.