Re-writing the way full backs play?

[Ron_Justice]

Listening to and watching the game today, on ifollow, and two or three times in commentary Kevin Gage suggested Wilder is in the process of re-writing the role and way full-backs play. Specifically, the way in which JOC and CVV (Bash in other games) are encouraged to overlap the Wingbacks.

Makes me wonder if he's onto something (Gage and Wilder) and we could be seeing this style of play deployed by more teams as time goes on and more managers start seeing the results it brings. Imagine the way the pundits would be waxing lyrical if Pochettino or Pep had developed it and their mega stars were running riot through the leagues...

 

[Pierre's PC]

I do think that Spurs try to play a little like this already, there are some similarities between the two teams style (especially when Dembele and Eriksen start together).

I think that once of the reasons CVV was allowed here was that we play 3 at the back with fullbacks that push on. It's a style that Poch want's to play based on everything he's said.

 

[Ricky]

I've got no doubt other clubs will start playing with overlapping wide centre backs. The risk isn't even high in the 3-5-2. There are always team mates around to cover and gaps can easily be filled.

It's rare to be the instigator of a widespread tactical trend but this is one I think we'll be able to claim.

 

[Sithblade]

Has Wilder played this formation before at Northampton or Oxford? As the impression when he first came here was we'd be a 4-4-2 team, but circumstances and players available meant we played 3-5-2.

 

[BiggerBladeThanThou]

Would it work in the Prem?

 

[PokerBlade]

One of the impressive things is finding a gem like O'Connell that can do it so convincingly. I was talking with someone about when we played Hull at home on our way up to the Prem, and which players from that side we'd have had in today's, and I was thinking what a dream back three Morgan with JOC and Jags either side of him would've been in this system.

We don't have some of the big names or big money players of other teams, but we do have a very technically well rounded side to be able to play this way. Midfielders that can drop into defence and defenders that can turn to attacking wingers.

 

[Dnblade]

Has Wilder played this formation before at Northampton or Oxford? As the impression when he first came here was we'd be a 4-4-2 team, but circumstances and players available meant we played 3-5-2.

I think he played a 4231 formation at Northampton.
I don't think I've seen another team play overlapping Centre Backs...i can see other teams copying it though.

 

[Ricky]

Has Wilder played this formation before at Northampton or Oxford? As the impression when he first came here was we'd be a 4-4-2 team, but circumstances and players available meant we played 3-5-2.

This is something I'd like to ask him about. I'd like to know when they started considering the 3-5-2 as a serious option. Was it always in their mind or was it a reaction to poor early results?

The Gillingham game was the first outing for the 3-5-2. I was there and I'll always remember it as the start of everything. Very significant day.

 

[Sharrow Snuff Mill]

Would it work in the Prem?

Yes, as long the players are good enough. It gives such an array of attacking options that defences ultimately are unlocked, but the players have to, consistently, have more of the ball than the opposition.

 

[Foxy]

I'd like to know when they started considering the 3-5-2 as a serious option. Was it always in their mind or was it a reaction to poor early results?

They were reeling a little bit after a shakey start and he came in and said they'd try it as he'd been thinking about it and it suited the players at their disposal... The rest is history.

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Would it work in the Prem?

Come back in 365 days.

 

[Newbury Blade]

Baldock and Stevens are complete naturals in the wingback positions, as O’Connell is for this overlapping CB role, would have been good to see Maguire in this team as he practically invented the marauding central defender role

 

[Ricky]

Baldock and Stevens are complete naturals in the wingback positions

They were carefully selected signings. Yet also fairly obvious ones. Both are physically good in every department. Solidly built, strong runners, decent pace. Both can defend and attack well. Both seem like good characters.

We've done exceptionally well to get those two in for a combined 300k.

 

[Newbury Blade]

They were carefully selected signings. Yet also fairly obvious ones. Both are physically good in every department. Solidly built, strong runners, decent pace. Both can defend and attack well. Both seem like good characters.

We've done exceptionally well to get those two in for a combined 300k.

Yes, and plenty of clubs would think nothing of paying say £10m or more, probably to clubs in continental Europe, for players who are no better or not even as good as those two, and might well find it harder to settle in. All credit to CW for being one of the very few managers who seem to be aware of this.

 

[ForgeBlade]

One of the impressive things is finding a gem like O'Connell that can do it so convincingly. I was talking with someone about when we played Hull at home on our way up to the Prem, and which players from that side we'd have had in today's, and I was thinking what a dream back three Morgan with JOC and Jags either side of him would've been in this system.

We don't have some of the big names or big money players of other teams, but we do have a very technically well rounded side to be able to play this way. Midfielders that can drop into defence and defenders that can turn to attacking wingers.

I think JOC is a massive part of why it works so well for us. He's superb, always on the overlap down the left (don't think I've ever seen an overlapping CB before) but then fit enough to get back in position if and when our attack breaks down.

A lad sat behind me today was a spurs fan at the lane with mates...he was raving about JOC all day. Really rated him and seemed to think he could do a job at the top level of the PL. High praise from a fan of a team that demolished Real Madrid midweek.

 

[Bladeinleeds]

Think half of why it works is the quality on the ball of basham/o’connell and ccv. Not to mention the fitness and athleticism of the players to get up and down the pitch

With the greatest respect to wilder - the system wouldn’t work half as well with neil collins in the back 3.

Credit is due for realising it gets the best out of our current players.

 

[SwissBlade]

Listening to and watching the game today, on ifollow, and two or three times in commentary Kevin Gage suggested Wilder is in the process of re-writing the role and way full-backs play. Specifically, the way in which JOC and CVV (Bash in other games) are encouraged to overlap the Wingbacks.

Makes me wonder if he's onto something (Gage and Wilder) and we could be seeing this style of play deployed by more teams as time goes on and more managers start seeing the results it brings. Imagine the way the pundits would be waxing lyrical if Pochettino or Pep had developed it and their mega stars were running riot through the leagues...

Gage my has also said many times that we play total football. This is perhaps a bigger statement in the fact that whilst each player plays a position, they have both the ability and importantly the freedom to move positions.

It’s almost a 5-a-side mentality in an 11-a-side game. When players make runs they are covered by other players

The modern game is quite rigid in its structure. 4-4-2, 4-5-1/4-3-3 are good examples of this. You just need to look at England international team for this. Everything is played within a rigid format as that’s what the foreign teams do, same with when English teams play in Europe, they adapt their way to play in the European way - maintain possession and patience. For years the question used to be “why don’t we play like they do in the Premier League?” But slowly the Premier league has had fewer Wengers and more Mourinhos and the possession and patience game won over.

It’s only recently that the likes of Spurs and Citeh are playing more expansively but even with my little exposure to the Premier League game I still see the patient build up.

Wilder has got us playing solidly, very organised and with an attitude that we don’t give much away defensively. Everyone knows their role.

On the attack it’s still organised in the fact that when one player goes, another covers, but it allows players like centre halves to make runs and get forward to support the midfield and wingbacks.

The problem we seem to have is then slotting new midfielders into this system. Wingbacks and centrehalves cope well, but we’ve not found midfielders that can now slot in as replacements for Coutts, Fleck and Duffy.

 

[Ron_Justice]

Given how critical the holy trinity are, I'd be surprised if they're not roles CW will be looking to bolster, in some way, in January.

 

[JimPhipps]

Brilliant thread!

 

[SwissBlade]

Given how critical the holy trinity are, I'd be surprised if they're not roles CW will be looking to bolster, in some way, in January.

I agree there, they are picking up bookings more regularly than last season.

 

[MobileBlade]

There's much more too it. When O'Connell for instance goes on a run, watch what Fleck does, cover wise. It is why we are rarely exposed even though we should be.

 

[Ron_Justice]

Think half of why it works is the quality on the ball of basham/o’connell and ccv. Not to mention the fitness and athleticism of the players to get up and down the pitch

With the greatest respect to wilder - the system wouldn’t work half as well with neil collins in the back 3.

Credit is due for realising it gets the best out of our current players.

Absolutely, which is probably why we won't see it deployed as a system, far and wide, quickly. It'll take managers time to recruit or train players to fill these roles and as we know, the likes of JOC and Maguire in the recent past, are highly regarded and will begin to command even higher fees, if this becomes a de-facto system in the coming years. One more upside, Shirecliffe would appear to be a breeding ground for high quality defenders and with Wilder at the helm and his Wide, Overlapping Center back (WOC's) philosophy, we could well see the fruits of it's/their labor for years to come!

 

[Ron_Justice]

There's much more too it. When O'Connell for instance goes on a run, watch what Fleck does, cover wise. It is why we are rarely exposed even though we should be.

You're completely right. I tried to articulate it the other week to the old man but failed either because I'm a dullard or he is... It's as if the players, all over the pitch tbf, are acutely aware of each other s positions and, when one moves forward, 1 or often 2 pivot around the moving player to fill in the gaps and, and this is critical to our attacking play, move forward with the marauding player to provide an outlet and pick up a rebounded ball of miss placed pass. I lost count, in the 2nd half v's Hull how many times I feared an attack would break down because the ball strayed loose, only for there to be ANOTHER United player their, ready to continue the wave or regroup, and start another one. It's genuinely incredible to watch such flowing, attacking, joyful play unfolding at The Lane. A thing of real beauty.

 

[broomhillblade]

Baldock and Stevens are complete naturals in the wingback positions, as O’Connell is for this overlapping CB role, would have been good to see Maguire in this team as he practically invented the marauding central defender role

Aren't you forgetting a certain Franz Beckenbauer?

Also, I believe in the very early days of football the centre half was regarded as the most important player in the team, and would be expected to push forward and score goals.

 

[Tommoblade66]

It's not a new tactic and personally I'm not a fan of it, I think it leaves the team exposed at the back. All your opponent has to do is boot it into the corners, it also tires out the full backs a lot faster

 

[robbiez666]

The obvious way to counter our formation is to play 3 strikers. If they're pacey it can stop all 5 of our defenders getting forward. Luckily, very few teams in this league can play like that.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Aren't you forgetting a certain Franz Beckenbauer?

And Emlyn Hughes

 

[Ron_Justice]

The obvious way to counter our formation is to play 3 strikers. If they're pacey it can stop all 5 of our defenders getting forward. Luckily, very few teams in this league can play like that.

That's the thing isn't it, it's a percentage game. You're not going to win every game, regardless of your system. As a manager, you need to suss what you can do, with what you have and hope that over the course of a season, your roll of the dice comes good more often than it goes tits up. It would appear that the WOC system results in CW/AK's roll coming good far more often than not.

 

[Ron_Justice]

It's not a new tactic and personally I'm not a fan of it, I think it leaves the team exposed at the back. All your opponent has to do is boot it into the corners, it also tires out the full backs a lot faster

The results thus far under CW & AK would suggest, that although that could be the case, it's dramatically been proven that it isn't.

 

[Ron_Justice]

'Attack Attacka'