Proper football, Wilder and Basset

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

I could almost put up with the Joseph Goebbels approach to what constitutes "proper football" if it wasn't for all the fucking nauseatingly sycophantic "Tufty" references from more than one member of the Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung.
 



Tyler Durden said:
I could almost put up with the Joseph Goebbels approach to what constitutes "proper football" if it wasn't for all the fucking nauseatingly sycophantic "Tufty" references from more than one member of the Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung.
Click to expand...
Cmon TD.

All aboard ;)IMG_0757.JPG
 
DronnieBlade said:
Mourninho hates possession for possessions sake. But I can assure you he does not hate possession.

Counter attacking strategies to nullify possession are intriguing, and of course can be effective.

And you edited your post (not quite in time for me not to notice !).

UTB
Click to expand...

I'll check Man Ure's possession stats next season. I'll be astonished if they don't dominate possession in the vast majority of their games.
 
It's interestingthat many slate Barcas Tikka Takka style as possession for possessions sake,personally I believe you can't have too much possession as it means the opposition can't hurt you,and as long as you have intentions to hurt them with that possession.
I also recognise there will be teams this season against whom we will not enjoy majority possession and will need to adapt to productively use what we do have. This might mean a swift forward ball on a counter attack and is not just legitimate and proper football but common sense. I agree with you Pinchy,but uless you are Barca you cant expect huge amounts of possession every week the further up the pyramid you go. I am confident Wilder will send his teams out to be positive and look to win each game this season. That will not always be by dominating teams as we did last. I am very much looking forward to seeing us maintain the high standards and ethic we showed last season and expect us to continue entertaining at every possible opportunity.
 
seanbeenstattoo said:
It's interestingthat many slate Barcas Tikka Takka style as possession for possessions sake,personally I believe you can't have too much possession as it means the opposition can't hurt you,and as long as you have intentions to hurt them with that possession.
I also recognise there will be teams this season against whom we will not enjoy majority possession and will need to adapt to productively use what we do have. This might mean a swift forward ball on a counter attack and is not just legitimate and proper football but common sense. I agree with you Pinchy,but uless you are Barca you cant expect huge amounts of possession every week the further up the pyramid you go. I am confident Wilder will send his teams out to be positive and look to win each game this season. That will not always be by dominating teams as we did last. I am very much looking forward to seeing us maintain the high standards and ethic we showed last season and expect us to continue entertaining at every possible opportunity.
Click to expand...
And Barcelona, Bayern, don't half work hard to get the ball back (gegenpressing is it?). In that sense it is very physical.
 
seanbeenstattoo said:
It's interestingthat many slate Barcas Tikka Takka style as possession for possessions sake,personally I believe you can't have too much possession as it means the opposition can't hurt you,and as long as you have intentions to hurt them with that possession.
I also recognise there will be teams this season against whom we will not enjoy majority possession and will need to adapt to productively use what we do have. This might mean a swift forward ball on a counter attack and is not just legitimate and proper football but common sense. I agree with you Pinchy,but uless you are Barca you cant expect huge amounts of possession every week the further up the pyramid you go. I am confident Wilder will send his teams out to be positive and look to win each game this season. That will not always be by dominating teams as we did last. I am very much looking forward to seeing us maintain the high standards and ethic we showed last season and expect us to continue entertaining at every possible opportunity.
Click to expand...

Very true all that, especially the highlighted bit. In Currie's heyday he could drop a 40 yard pass onto someone's toecap and bypass the formality of 20 tip-taps to get the same outcome. Possession is not the be-all and end-all, and a beautifully crafted long ball like the one's TC used to produce ain't fucking hoof. A lot of people tend to forget that.
 
Pinchy said:
Yet they are the ones who repeatedly refer to 'proper football' and the 'right way'. Everyone knows what they mean by these phrase, though the disingenuous will pretend otherwise.

There are many ways to write prose, but literary prizes are won by those who write with elegance and flair, producing an attractive product; not by those who toss a few sentences together at random. There is a way of writing that is inherently more likely to succeed than others.

Football is no different. Proper Football is Winning Football. Too many are inverting the equation and thereby creating a false premise and a flawed answer.

I'm not sure whether I can explain this any plainer. It won't register though. It never has before, sadly. I had hoped that last season's superb passing football and the results achieved as a consequence, might have been persuasive. Then I realised where we are...
Click to expand...

Welcome, Pinchy. We have had a couple of days of interesting and courteous discussion, and I was hoping that you might join in this in the same spirit, but it didn't take you long to get back to dishing out random insults to your fellow Blades 'with skulls like granite'. I make 2 points:
1. I originally invited you to start a thread such as this, promising to read what you say carefully and urging you to read others' posts similarly. One of your statements about Blades in general from the Ryan Leonard thread was that we like the results under Wilder but don't like the way in which they are achieved. So far this thread has failed to produce a single person who agrees with that statement. Not a statistically significant sample, but curious that nobody has yet come forward to defend it. I don't recall hearing or reading any statement to that effect from any United fan, and would ask you when disagreeing with people on here to do it on the basis of what they actually say. I have no problem with differences of opinion; indeed a forumlike this is designed partly to encourage such debate.
2. You are proud of your use of English. If you did us the courtesy of reading carefully and understanding what we say, your claim would be strengthened. And may I offer a piece of advice on writing? I am sure that you are aware that much older than the tenets of 'proper football' are the tenets of proper public oratory and writing known as rhetoric, which goes back to the Roman empire. Its starting point for successful persuasive speaking and writing was 'captatio benevolentiae', winning the good will of the audience. If you want to persuade someone of something, you first of all have to get them on your side. Or putting it in plain English, piss people off and they won't accept what you say, no matter how valid your point may be. Please think about that.
Oh, and when you invited me to start this thread, you asked me (sarcastically, I assume) if I also wanted to debate whether the earth is round. For what it's worth, my view is that it is a bumpy spheroid. ;) (The emoji shows that that is just a bit of fun)
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
And Barcelona, Bayern, don't half work hard to get the ball back (gegenpressing is it?). In that sense it is very physical.
Click to expand...

Yes. It's a myth that only upanatem teams work hard. It's not only very physical but hugely impressive. Barca, in particular, have a target number of seconds (forget what the figure is but it's low!) in which to dispossess the opposition.

When Barcelona (and the other elite teams) get it of course, the dispirited opposition knows it ain't comin' back for a while so end up shadow-chasing. It strangles the life out of all but the best.
 
Pinchy said:
That's the widest margin by which I've seen the point missed in a long time. It doesn't just miss the dartboard; it's speared a guy in the next street.
Click to expand...

Really awkward mixed metaphor there. Fact is I was AIMING for the guy in the next street as he was one of your "one or two" friends.

It's funny that you spend time talking about how wide of the point my posts are, yet when I use the phrase "Proper football is winning football" (twice on this thread) I'm talking bollocks, but when you use it yourself it's part of the latest nugget of footballing genius handed down by the Oracle of S24SU.
 
Pinchy said:
Very few goals are scored when a team is not in possession and about the same number are conceded when said team is.
Click to expand...

Apart from under David Weir. 70% possession in many games without creating a single attempt on goal. The opposition can't score when you have the ball, but unless you get out of your own half, neither are you.
 
lingsbord said:
Really awkward mixed metaphor there. Fact is I was AIMING for the guy in the next street as he was one of your "one or two" friends.

It's funny that you spend time talking about how wide of the point my posts are, yet when I use the phrase "Proper football is winning football" (twice on this thread) I'm talking bollocks, but when you use it yourself it's part of the latest nugget of footballing genius handed down by the Oracle of S24SU.
Click to expand...

You understand then:

That it's not a level playing field when proper football meets aimless long-ball shite?

That it's not a case of which variety of winning football you prefer?

That one way of playing (commonly known in the professional game as the 'right way') is infinitely more likely to win games than scruffy, ragamuffin, upanatem, shadow-chasing?

That "I don't care how we win as long as we win" entirely misses the point?

If so, I'm entirely satisfied.
 
Reading through this thread, it seems that a lot of posters think tikka-takka started during the past 10 years courtesy of the likes of Barcelona. It didn't. Liverpool were experts at this game 40 years ago when they adapted their game for the European stage. They ruled the roost in Europe for a decade or more playing the passing/possession game. Other teams tried to mimic them and "out-possess" them but Liverpool had players of the calibre of Hughes then Souness to ensure they didn't keep possession for too long.

After the Liverpool era along came AC Milan, replete with the dynamism of Gullit, Rijkaard and van Basten. Their style was anything but tikka-takka but were arguably the most exciting team to have graced the European stage. Does this make them hoofers then? Does it fuck.

Therefore the notion that if it's not possession it must be hoof and vice versa is a load of bollocks. It's not one or the other, it's not black or white. There are other effective ways of playing football other than the two extremes being discussed on this thread. Possession on it's own will get you nowhere, as we can attest to during the Weir and Clough eras. It can also be as boring as fuck.
 
Sorry, fairly new on here, so not up-to-date on everyone's personal histories with each other on here, although aware there clearly is some. Hopefully, someone can clear it up, but it just seems an odd thing to argue about? If any of these statements are debatable, then slap me in the face and call me an ostrich.

1. Fast, direct, forward-thinking, free-flowing, passing based attacking football is great.
2. Possession football without the fast and forward-thinking part isn't necessarily great in itself.
3. Some of the football dished up last year was some of the best most Blades have ever seen.
4. It would be great if all goals were like Freeman's at Swindon.
5. Not all goals are like Freeman's at Swindon.
6. Most of the Bassett era was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
7. Last year was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
8. Football and footballers have changed a lot since Bassett's days.
9. There are different ways to play footy, and different people enjoy different styles.

Is any of that wrong? I feel like if we were in a pub, we would basically all agree.
 



highgreenintokyo said:
Sorry, fairly new on here, so not up-to-date on everyone's personal histories with each other on here, although aware there clearly is some. Hopefully, someone can clear it up, but it just seems an odd thing to argue about? If any of these statements are debatable, then slap me in the face and call me an ostrich.

1. Fast, direct, forward-thinking, free-flowing, passing based attacking football is great.
2. Possession football without the fast and forward-thinking part isn't necessarily great in itself.
3. Some of the football dished up last year was some of the best most Blades have ever seen.
4. It would be great if all goals were like Freeman's at Swindon.
5. Not all goals are like Freeman's at Swindon.
6. Most of the Bassett era was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
7. Last year was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
8. Football and footballers have changed a lot since Bassett's days.
9. There are different ways to play footy, and different people enjoy different styles.

Is any of that wrong? I feel like if we were in a pub, we would basically all agree.
Click to expand...

You didn't say anything critical about Wilder, Sharp or McCabe so you should avoid the onslaught. For now. ;)
 
highgreenintokyo said:
Sorry, fairly new on here, so not up-to-date on everyone's personal histories with each other on here, although aware there clearly is some. Hopefully, someone can clear it up, but it just seems an odd thing to argue about? If any of these statements are debatable, then slap me in the face and call me an ostrich.

1. Fast, direct, forward-thinking, free-flowing, passing based attacking football is great.
2. Possession football without the fast and forward-thinking part isn't necessarily great in itself.
3. Some of the football dished up last year was some of the best most Blades have ever seen.
4. It would be great if all goals were like Freeman's at Swindon.
5. Not all goals are like Freeman's at Swindon.
6. Most of the Bassett era was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
7. Last year was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
8. Football and footballers have changed a lot since Bassett's days.
9. There are different ways to play footy, and different people enjoy different styles.

Is any of that wrong? I feel like if we were in a pub, we would basically all agree.
Click to expand...

Number nine is no doubt right but it masks the essential fact that one style [the "right way" as professional managers and players call it] is infinitely more attractive and infinitely more likely to succeed than any other.

It's not quite as simple as "it doesn't matter how you play as long as you win". That view is through the wrong end of the telescope.

You might have added:

10. Bassett style football worked at a certain point in history. It was found out and is now redundant.

You would find overwhelming agreement for that proposition across the land.
 
highgreenintokyo said:
Sorry, fairly new on here, so not up-to-date on everyone's personal histories with each other on here, although aware there clearly is some. Hopefully, someone can clear it up, but it just seems an odd thing to argue about? If any of these statements are debatable, then slap me in the face and call me an ostrich.

1. Fast, direct, forward-thinking, free-flowing, passing based attacking football is great.
2. Possession football without the fast and forward-thinking part isn't necessarily great in itself.
3. Some of the football dished up last year was some of the best most Blades have ever seen.
4. It would be great if all goals were like Freeman's at Swindon.
5. Not all goals are like Freeman's at Swindon.
6. Most of the Bassett era was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
7. Last year was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
8. Football and footballers have changed a lot since Bassett's days.
9. There are different ways to play footy, and different people enjoy different styles.

Is any of that wrong? I feel like if we were in a pub, we would basically all agree.
Click to expand...

Point 9 is important. In a perfect world the football we saw last year would be used wherever possible, but sometimes players' limitations scupper that. Would the likes of Tonge or Stephen Quinn coped playing last year's style? Probably. Would Monty and Morgs? I doubt it. A decent manager will adjust his style to suit what he has – the football we played last year for example was clearly not the same as Wilder's approach at Oxford.

Some of the worst examples of management we've seen have involved managers stubbornly trying to force players into systems they were ill-suited for. Weir fits into that category certainly, Robson too, though at the other end of the scale is probably Blackwell with the Britton situation a classic example.
 
highgreenintokyo said:
Sorry, fairly new on here, so not up-to-date on everyone's personal histories with each other on here, although aware there clearly is some. Hopefully, someone can clear it up, but it just seems an odd thing to argue about? If any of these statements are debatable, then slap me in the face and call me an ostrich.

1. Fast, direct, forward-thinking, free-flowing, passing based attacking football is great.
2. Possession football without the fast and forward-thinking part isn't necessarily great in itself.
3. Some of the football dished up last year was some of the best most Blades have ever seen.
4. It would be great if all goals were like Freeman's at Swindon.
5. Not all goals are like Freeman's at Swindon.
6. Most of the Bassett era was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
7. Last year was a great and exciting time to be a Blade.
8. Football and footballers have changed a lot since Bassett's days.
9. There are different ways to play footy, and different people enjoy different styles.

Is any of that wrong? I feel like if we were in a pub, we would basically all agree.
Click to expand...
Good to get a new pair of eyes on this. It appears to be necessary to keep stating what Basil Fawlty called 'the bleedin' obvious' so that we can debate topics of interest without being accused of holding views that we don't hold. Most of us love Wilder's football, and those of us who were at Leicester for the 5-2 win regard it as one of the best days to be a Blade. To me, those are 2 things to celebrate rather than argue about. Mind you, don't insult ostriches, or 1973Blade will be along.;)
 
So based on your own number 10 point then Pinchy, explain why you have a problem with people having good memories of Bassett and reminiscing?

I loved my first car but it wouldn't cut the mustard now. I have fond memories of a couple of ex girlfriends in particular from years back, but I wouldn't want to be married to them now. I don't however feel the need to slag off or disrespect any of the above at any given opportunity.
 
Well, my number eight hopefully implied to an extent your number ten. I think all styles and all teams that adhere to a single approach will be found out, though, ultimately. It's why Juve battered Barcelona, why Holland battered Spain. It's probably why Leicester were a lot worse this last year, too. Our 5-3-2 isn't going to work forever either, but the good thing about us recently and about Wilder is we have the ability and players to be flexible.

I can't really agree with everything I've seen you write on this thread, Pinchy, and I think ultimately we all want United to play exciting football and to win games. The part where I suspect and hope we agree is the frustration with a handful, but vocal, number of fans who moan and make clear their displeasure when a pass doesn't come off. It's genuinely baffling and counterproductive.
 
The best triangles I can recall were when Collins passed it forward to Doyle (usually marked) who then passed it back to McEveley. He then started his own triangle when he tried to pass it back to Long who then misread it and let in one of the oppo strikers. Marvellous stuff.
 
Pinchy said:
Number nine is no doubt right but it masks the essential fact that one style [the "right way" as professional managers and players call it] is infinitely more attractive and infinitely more likely to succeed than any other.

It's not quite as simple as "it doesn't matter how you play as long as you win". That view is through the wrong end of the telescope.

You might have added:

10. Bassett style football worked at a certain point in history. It was found out and is now redundant.

You would find overwhelming agreement for that proposition across the land.
Click to expand...
And surely your point 10 is precisely why you can't assume that one way is right for ever. The best coaches adapt to changing circumstances, and unless they have the best 18 players in the world in their squad, they need to have a plan B.
On the Bramall Lane pitch in mid-April in the 1950s, say, when the mud had baked into rutted concrete, I would not have wanted Hodgy to roll it Coldwell to roll it to a midfielder dropping back to the edge of the area; on a Desso pitch in 2017, I want Moore to roll it to a defender or Coutts or Fleck, and let them play it out from the back. Who would have thought 40 years ago that a top coach like Guardiola would be choosing a goalkeeper on the basis of his ball skills as much as his handling skills? Changes to the pass back rules have led to changes in the game. I assume Wilder bought Hanson so that we had a plan B, which fortunately he did not have to resort to often. Would you not agree that a good coach has an open mind and responds to situations, in addition to setting his team up to play in a certain way?
 
snootyfenooty said:
Reading through this thread, it seems that a lot of posters think tikka-takka started during the past 10 years courtesy of the likes of Barcelona. It didn't. Liverpool were experts at this game 40 years ago when they adapted their game for the European stage. They ruled the roost in Europe for a decade or more playing the passing/possession game. Other teams tried to mimic them and "out-possess" them but Liverpool had players of the calibre of Hughes then Souness to ensure they didn't keep possession for too long.

After the Liverpool era along came AC Milan, replete with the dynamism of Gullit, Rijkaard and van Basten. Their style was anything but tikka-takka but were arguably the most exciting team to have graced the European stage. Does this make them hoofers then? Does it fuck.

Therefore the notion that if it's not possession it must be hoof and vice versa is a load of bollocks. It's not one or the other, it's not black or white. There are other effective ways of playing football other than the two extremes being discussed on this thread. Possession on it's own will get you nowhere, as we can attest to during the Weir and Clough eras. It can also be as boring as fuck.
Click to expand...

Arthur Rowe was the originator of this style of football ball in the early 50's.

“Under Arthur Rowe, the ball was swept around the pitch by Ron Burgess, Eddie Baily, Alf Ramsay and Bill Nicholson. Push and run football meant playing first touch football as far and often as you could. You’d move the ball and run into space, knowing the lay-off was probably going to come your way. It involved movement and retaining possession.”
 
Bert said:
Arthur Rowe was the originator of this style of football ball in the early 50's.

“Under Arthur Rowe, the ball was swept around the pitch by Ron Burgess, Eddie Baily, Alf Ramsay and Bill Nicholson. Push and run football meant playing first touch football as far and often as you could. You’d move the ball and run into space, knowing the lay-off was probably going to come your way. It involved movement and retaining possession.”
Click to expand...
And Nicholson certainly went on to use it to great effect in the Spurs double-winning team. Does anyone else remember the statement by Danny Blanchflower in his autobiography that he was amazed when he went to Spurs to be given a ball in training; at his previous club (Barnsley?), the belief had been that if the players were not given the ball all week, they would be hungry for it on a Saturday! He was given to exaggeration, but I am sure there was some truth in it.
 
HodgysBrokenThumb said:
And surely your point 10 is precisely why you can't assume that one way is right for ever. The best coaches adapt to changing circumstances, and unless they have the best 18 players in the world in their squad, they need to have a plan B.
On the Bramall Lane pitch in mid-April in the 1950s, say, when the mud had baked into rutted concrete, I would not have wanted Hodgy to roll it Coldwell to roll it to a midfielder dropping back to the edge of the area; on a Desso pitch in 2017, I want Moore to roll it to a defender or Coutts or Fleck, and let them play it out from the back. Who would have thought 40 years ago that a top coach like Guardiola would be choosing a goalkeeper on the basis of his ball skills as much as his handling skills? Changes to the pass back rules have led to changes in the game. I assume Wilder bought Hanson so that we had a plan B, which fortunately he did not have to resort to often. Would you not agree that a good coach has an open mind and responds to situations, in addition to setting his team up to play in a certain way?
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
1danewhitehouse said:
Possibly the most talented blades side I've seen. Deane, Fjortoft, Whitehouse, Hutchison, Stuart, McGrath, Saunders, Holdsworth, Borbokis, Quinn, Kellly, Tracey, Patterson, Marcelo etc. What an incredible bunch of players. To think we started the season something like

---------------------------Kelly

----------Holdsworth-McGrath- Tiler
Borbokis-----------------------------------------Quinn
---------Hutchison--Patterson--Whitehouse

----------------------Deane-----Fjortoft

and finished something like

---------------------------Kelly
Wilder------Holdsworth-Jacobsen------Quinn

Devlin---------Marker---Hamilton----Woodhouse

--------------------Marcelo--Saunders


Still a few good players in that 2nd team but the difference is unbelievable.
Click to expand...
Tracey played 27 league games that season and Kelly 19. Tracey played in every game until the 2-1 defeat at Norwich in December which was our 2nd defeat of the season. His brilliant understanding with the defence was one of the keys to our brilliant start
 
Silent Blade said:
Tracey played 27 league games that season and Kelly 19. Tracey played in every game until the 2-1 defeat at Norwich in December which was our 2nd defeat of the season. His brilliant understanding with the defence was one of the keys to our brilliant start
Click to expand...

Hadn't realised he'd played that many that season.2 quality 'keepers to choose from either way.
 



You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

L
The reset is still needed
Replies
5
Views
567
JaTa
J
J
Get Wilder gone and stop the delusion.
3 4 5
Replies
126
Views
6K
AWetFlannel
AWetFlannel
Cheeky Blade
The Football
Replies
7
Views
682
Sheffsteel
Sheffsteel
Silky Sabella
An Opinion!
Replies
22
Views
2K
103SecondsOfMagic
1
Coolblade
A few updated observations from the stats (Selles v Wilder)
Replies
7
Views
591
Tom Bott
Tom Bott

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

All advertisments are hidden for logged in members, why not log in/register?

Back
Top Bottom