Problems with the early rounds of Cup competitions

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

I have gone right off the early rounds of the Cup competitions, because...
1. It's hard to know whether you want Utd to win or lose, and that just feels plain wrong. Last year, losing in both competitions so early was probably a good thing, but it makes watching the games hard.
2. They don't open the Kop. Kills the atmosphere stone dead, and while I appreciate that the South Stand gives a good view, behind the goal is where I want to watch football from, both for the best view of goals scored (at one end, anyway), and because of my fascination with goal-keeping. The outstanding moment last night was Moore's penalty save, and I would have loved to have been right behind the line of the ball to appreciate the skill of that save and the follow-up.
3. Playing a second-string side is sensible, but makes for awful watching. With no atmosphere and players who have never played together before, the standard of play is almost always awful. This is true of regulars (Norwood and Sharp would never make it to the first team on the basis of last night), and makes seeing new players disappointing. As has been pointed out, several of the disasters from the Barnet game went on to play key roles when needed in the first team, so we shouldn't judge any of the players from last night.
4. It reminds me too much of the passage of time. Used to be that the third round of the Cup was one of the highlights of the year - now it is just something to get out of the way. Inevitable, perhaps, but still a source of sadness.

 

[bladesmanluke]

We as fans seem to care about cups much less than other teams. Leeds pulled in 30k last night for their carabao cup fixture. We wouldn't have done that if we'd drawn the pigs

 

[BladeInIreland]

I have gone right off the early rounds of the Cup competitions, because...
1. It's hard to know whether you want Utd to win or lose, and that just feels plain wrong. Last year, losing in both competitions so early was probably a good thing, but it makes watching the games hard.
2. They don't open the Kop. Kills the atmosphere stone dead, and while I appreciate that the South Stand gives a good view, behind the goal is where I want to watch football from, both for the best view of goals scored (at one end, anyway), and because of my fascination with goal-keeping. The outstanding moment last night was Moore's penalty save, and I would have loved to have been right behind the line of the ball to appreciate the skill of that save and the follow-up.
3. Playing a second-string side is sensible, but makes for awful watching. With no atmosphere and players who have never played together before, the standard of play is almost always awful. This is true of regulars (Norwood and Sharp would never make it to the first team on the basis of last night), and makes seeing new players disappointing. As has been pointed out, several of the disasters from the Barnet game went on to play key roles when needed in the first team, so we shouldn't judge any of the players from last night.
4. It reminds me too much of the passage of time. Used to be that the third round of the Cup was one of the highlights of the year - now it is just something to get out of the way. Inevitable, perhaps, but still a source of sadness.

On point 3, I actually liked watching early round games to get a look at the squad players, maybe a couple of youth players.

However under our system if it’s not a regular 11 it is obvious it doesn’t click anywhere near well enough.

I have no interest in the cups, didn’t they even get rid of the runner up European spot for the FA cup? I’d take an interest in a purely regional cup. Yorkshire cup and the equivalents would keep interest as we would play rivals, and generally travel would be cheaper and more realistic for midweek games.

Maybe the regional winners could enter the FA cup.

 

[Cheets]

To use that awful phrase, 'it is what it is'. Its cheap, you get to see squad players/new signings and see what they're like. You can get parked easily. For me it's a nice change going in the South Stand, though I prefer the Kop, and I get 150 loyalty points into the bargain.

 

[Beans]

Ouch, HodgysBrokenThumb - that fourth point! I felt that.

One thing I've wondered about (not too hard, so feel free to pick holes in this) is having a system in the early rounds where the "big teams" have to play away at whomever they're drawn against. Or alternatively, the lower league team gets the option of picking the venue. So, if they've got Man United, it makes sense for them to play at Old Trafford because it'll be a huge crowd, they'll get more £££. But for say Palace Colchester last night, surely Colchester would rather have had that as a home tie?

Should lead to better atmospheres, bigger crowds (look how many Norwich fans were at Crawley last night, or Villa fans at Crewe), maybe a better chance of an upset, so maybe bigger teams would have to play better players to avoid the loss. Granted it wouldn't really have changed anything for United v Blackburn, but occasionally you just get a crap draw in the cup

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

Ouch, HodgysBrokenThumb - that fourth point! I felt that.

One thing I've wondered about (not too hard, so feel free to pick holes in this) is having a system in the early rounds where the "big teams" have to play away at whomever they're drawn against. Or alternatively, the lower league team gets the option of picking the venue. So, if they've got Man United, it makes sense for them to play at Old Trafford because it'll be a huge crowd, they'll get more £££. But for say Palace Colchester last night, surely Colchester would rather have had that as a home tie?

Should lead to better atmospheres, bigger crowds (look how many Norwich fans were at Crawley last night, or Villa fans at Crewe), maybe a better chance of an upset, so maybe bigger teams would have to play better players to avoid the loss. Granted it wouldn't really have changed anything for United v Blackburn, but occasionally you just get a crap draw in the cup

Interesting thoughts, but I suspect once you have to tinker with the format in such ways, it suggests that the 'magic' has gone. And just to make it clear, I am not wanting to revert to an imagined golden age. The FA Cup was magic, particularly to football-mad kids, but with just the one cup competition, it was tough if you were knocked out at the first-hurdle several years in a row. And life in the second tier of football could be dull, with 2-up, 2-down, and 2 points for a win. The season could be over by February, with nothing to play for. On the other hand, the top division was genuinely competitive, with the likes of Burnley and Ipswich winning the League.

 

[Beans]

Interesting thoughts, but I suspect once you have to tinker with the format in such ways, it suggests that the 'magic' has gone.

I agree, but I'd also say whatever magic the league cup had, is long gone. As in, probably 20-years-gone - I went to league cup games under Steve Bruce with only a couple of stands open and barely 8,000 fans there. If you were a newcomer to football, you'd probably find it absolutely baffling that it still exists at all - two teams of back-ups playing each other in stadiums barely a third full.

I could see it getting scrapped altogether before too long, or having the Champions League teams exempt from it (which is possibly a step towards the same outcome - scrapping it), so I'm up for tinkering with the format. They already do the north/south divide to the draw, after all.

 

[BushBlade]

Interesting thoughts, but I suspect once you have to tinker with the format in such ways, it suggests that the 'magic' has gone. And just to make it clear, I am not wanting to revert to an imagined golden age. The FA Cup was magic, particularly to football-mad kids, but with just the one cup competition, it was tough if you were knocked out at the first-hurdle several years in a row. And life in the second tier of football could be dull, with 2-up, 2-down, and 2 points for a win. The season could be over by February, with nothing to play for. On the other hand, the top division was genuinely competitive, with the likes of Burnley and Ipswich winning the League.

Has there ever been any ‘magic’ in the League Cup? It was only brought in to provide additional midweek games (and revenue) for the clubs not in Europe.

I can just about remember the days when winning the FA Cup was the equal of winning the league (arguably bigger) and I’d still say it’s a bit special but has faded since those days. It’s all about the PL and the European Cup now, as it provides so much income.

I think the prize money for winning the league cup is £100k. As someone on the radio said this morning, if that was a golf tournament not one top player would enter it.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

The last 2 posts are quite right - indeed the League Cup has helped water down the prestige of the FA Cup. In the 50s and early 60s, winning the Cup was more prestigious than winning the League. It was partly the magic of Wembley as the high point of any footballer's career, I think.

 

[crucialkneeligaman]

Has there ever been any ‘magic’ in the League Cup? It was only brought in to provide additional midweek games (and revenue) for the clubs not in Europe.

I can just about remember the days when winning the FA Cup was the equal of winning the league (arguably bigger) and I’d still say it’s a bit special but has faded since those days. It’s all about the PL and the European Cup now, as it provides so much income.

I think the prize money for winning the league cup is £100k. As someone on the radio said this morning, if that was a golf tournament not one top player would enter it.

Don't know BB as a kid in the mid/late sixties I took a keen interest in the LC. Liked it even more when Arsenal got tonked by Swindon at Wembley, wasn't the attendance for the LC final up there with the FAC finals ? or am I imagining it ?. I vowed after the Barnet debacle that I would not be attending anymore of these early round second string games, and sounds like I did the right thing after the views expressed about last nights performance. At one time I wouldn't have missed a game in either cup competition but by a combination of the powers that be, football club indifference etc the magic is gone, certainly in the LC with the FAC hanging on by it's fingertips.

 

[HodgysBrokenThumb]

We as fans seem to care about cups much less than other teams. Leeds pulled in 30k last night for their carabao cup fixture. We wouldn't have done that if we'd drawn the pigs

I hadn't seen the Leeds attendance. I have no idea why they get so many in comparison. One thing that puzzles me (and this is an observation, not a criticism) is that in league games the players play with high intensity (minimum expectation, according to Wilder); everbody says that training is done at full pelt, no holding back, and again, Wilder says he wants this. So why do the fringe players, with an opportunity to press their case for first-team inclusion, appear to play with such little intensity in these cup games? They are like pre-season friendlies, and it doesn't surprise me that few people turn up.

 

[PokerBlade]

Fact is the prestige of the cup is gone now that the league is so important and football's on TV all week long including everything from the top European clubs to the bottom of the Scottish leagues.

There's nothing special about the first round of the League Cup. I actually don't even remember who won the bloody competition last season. And let's be honest, not many people would pick winning a cup over staying in the Prem because of the long term benefits to the club.

What's happened to the cups is the way the game's evolved. The league is what pays the bills, brings better players, and attracts more fans. It's sad that it isn't what it was but that's life and I don't think there's a way to bring it back.

 

[CrookesBlade]

The interesting thing re the league cup is that EFL clubs can’t be inclined to scrap it or give it a major revamp, otherwise they’d have done it by now. It must serve a purpose.

I used to enjoy the early rounds of the League Cup. Often played on a balmy evening with cheap tickets. The two-legged format was a novelty, you got a look at the fringe players/new signings plus playing sides from lower leagues gave the opportunity potentially for a new ground to tick off and you’d get to see a few goals.

After last night though, despite a decent attendance you do wonder why you bother with these games. Most players’ primary concern was avoiding injury ahead of a potential squad place at Chelsea, rather than trying to force their way into Wilder’s plans.

 

[bladesmanluke]

I hadn't seen the Leeds attendance. I have no idea why they get so many in comparison. One thing that puzzles me (and this is an observation, not a criticism) is that in league games the players play with high intensity (minimum expectation, according to Wilder); everbody says that training is done at full pelt, no holding back, and again, Wilder says he wants this. So why do the fringe players, with an opportunity to press their case for first-team inclusion, appear to play with such little intensity in these cup games? They are like pre-season friendlies, and it doesn't surprise me that few people turn up.

It's probably more down to not playing with each other. They'd only be able to play with that level of intensity if they 100% knew their job and that their teammates were doing their own likewise. It's more about getting the job done when there's so many changes. We just about managed it.
It's difficult for any club to take this competition seriously. I'd like to see a champions League spot awarded to at least the fa cup winner to revitalise it a bit, but there's no chance of the premier league allowing it.

 

[Dkc]

We haven't won a trophy since 1925, apart from the 4th division. The League Cup is one of the three biggest English honours (albeit the 3rd-biggest). The final is at Wembley, and the winner plays in Europe. That's enough for me to be interested in the later stages at least. We have a decent chance as the bigger clubs don't care much about the meagre prize money or Europa League qualification , as they are probably already in the CL or EL.

Can't deny that it is a decent competition at the later stages. We've been in the semis twice in the past 18 years. Our last semi final v Spurs was a great advert for the League Cup, and BL was packed for the home tie.

 

[BushBlade]

We haven't won a trophy since 1925, apart from the 4th division. The League Cup is one of the three biggest English honours (albeit the 3rd-biggest). The final is at Wembley, and the winner plays in Europe. That's enough for me to be interested in the later stages at least. We have a decent chance as the bigger clubs don't care much about the meagre prize money or Europa League qualification , as they are probably already in the CL or EL.

Can't deny that it is a decent competition at the later stages. We've been in the semis twice in the past 18 years. Our last semi final v Spurs was a great advert for the League Cup, and BL was packed for the home tie.

In the last ten seasons it’s been won by Swansea and Birmingham but that was 2011 and 2013. Apart from that it’s been Man U x 3, Man City x 3, Liverpool and Chelsea.

So, it’s not that likely we’ll win it.

 

[Revolution]

1. It's hard to know whether you want Utd to win or lose, and that just feels plain wrong. Last year, losing in both competitions so early was probably a good thing, but it makes watching the games hard.

I don't understand this mentality at all. I want United to win every game they play.

I don't see how defeat is a good thing. In our last 2 relegation seasons from the PL we were knocked out at the first attempt in both cups and it didn't keep us up.

 

[BladeTillIDie]

Probably an age thing with me but I've never been too fussed with cup games. I attended the other night and do most of them but it really doesn't bother me if we lose. Hope we pick some points up Saturday with the lads having a rest.

 

[bladesmanluke]

We haven't won a trophy since 1925, apart from the 4th division. The League Cup is one of the three biggest English honours (albeit the 3rd-biggest). The final is at Wembley, and the winner plays in Europe. That's enough for me to be interested in the later stages at least. We have a decent chance as the bigger clubs don't care much about the meagre prize money or Europa League qualification , as they are probably already in the CL or EL.

Can't deny that it is a decent competition at the later stages. We've been in the semis twice in the past 18 years. Our last semi final v Spurs was a great advert for the League Cup, and BL was packed for the home tie.

We wouldn't even need to win it. It could be our most realistic route to European football just getting to a final v say Liverpool. Get sparked 5-0 and we'd still be in Europe next season

 

[Dkc]

We wouldn't even need to win it. It could be our most realistic route to European football just getting to a final v say Liverpool. Get sparked 5-0 and we'd still be in Europe next season

Runners up of FA and League cups don't qualify for Europe any more, do they? I think the last year when the losing FA Cup finalists qualified was the year we reached the semis v Hull. Dunno if the LC runners up have ever qualified for Europe via that route.

 

[mattbianco1]

The first 4 RDs of both cups should be included in the season ticket price. It's a gamble by the club if we're drawn at home (lost revenue on gates), but I'm sure if there's 25k there on free tickets, they'd make more than the gates on food and drinks.

 

[BushBlade]

Runners up of FA and League cups don't qualify for Europe any more, do they? I think the last year when the losing FA Cup finalists qualified was the year we reached the semis v Hull. Dunno if the LC runners up have ever qualified for Europe via that route.

They used to but they scrapped it. Around the time we were getting to semi finals, almost as if someone thought ‘sooner or later a L1 or championship club will get to a final and get into Europe. We can’t have that’.

 

[S64 Blade]

The first 4 RDs of both cups should be included in the season ticket price. It's a gamble by the club if we're drawn at home (lost revenue on gates), but I'm sure if there's 25k there on free tickets, they'd make more than the gates on food and drinks.

Agreed. If we were drawn away, it'd just be the same as now, so no real loss.

 

[WalkelyFan]

Probably an age thing with me but I've never been too fussed with cup games. I attended the other night and do most of them but it really doesn't bother me if we lose. Hope we pick some points up Saturday with the lads having a rest.

I suspoect in a game SUFC V Sunderland they will not be too bothered about winning. They have too much at stake elsewhere.

 

[CrookesBlade]

The first 4 RDs of both cups should be included in the season ticket price. It's a gamble by the club if we're drawn at home (lost revenue on gates), but I'm sure if there's 25k there on free tickets, they'd make more than the gates on food and drinks.

They ran this for a couple of seasons in League One presumably to sweeten the season ticket deal and stop attendances dropping off for these games given we were involved in the JPT, League Cup and FA Cup all within the space of a few months.