Paying millions to make your club worse

[Chabuddy G]

Defending the indefensible Chabs. In Tindall We Trust

Manager good. Board and players bad.

Constructive dismissal or engineering his own exit?
I think you’ll find as with most things like this, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Don't know how many times this needs to be said, but he wasn't sacked

What would you call it then? Semantics mean fuck all in this case. If he’s being paid off, as is suspected then he didn’t want to leave and the club have binned him off. You don’t pay a manager off if he walks of his own accord.

 

[Kev Gee]

Why not just resign?

First of all HRH would need to accept his resignation. Which would seem odd given his public support for him all season.

And you can't just resign and then a few days later sign a deal at another club in order for the other club to get out of paying compo.

Other managers have tried shady tactics like this in the past, and it didn't go down well.

 

[Chabuddy G]

What would you call it then? Semantics mean fuck all in this case. If he’s being paid off, as is suspected then he didn’t want to leave and the club have binned him off. You don’t pay a manager off if he walks of his own accord.

Mutual termination still makes for a payout.
If he was sacked then he would be entitled to either a pre agreed sum, or his whole remainder of his contract. There would be no need for negotiation.

 

[Rodley]

Don't know how many times this needs to be said, but he wasn't sacked

Do you usually negotiate a compensation package after handing your notice of resignation in?

 

[Chabuddy G]

Do you usually negotiate a compensation package after handing your notice in?

If you’re sacked the compo is pre agreed or you’re paid up in full. There’s no need for any negotiation

 

[Barney]

What would you call it then? Semantics mean fuck all in this case. If he’s being paid off, as is suspected then he didn’t want to leave and the club have binned him off. You don’t pay a manager off if he walks of his own accord.

Obviously if a manager comes to you and says he's not happy and wants to work out a financial agreement to leave then a sensible person doing the best thing for the club tries to work that through with the manager. He doesn't just keep a severely unhappy employee. It's either a resignation or a mutual agreement brought about by Wilder.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Mutual termination still makes for a payout.
If he was sacked then he would be entitled to either a pre agreed sum, or his whole remainder of his contract. There would be no need for negotiation.

Still semantics. A ‘mutual termination’ is a sacking without calling it a sacking in my view.

 

[Houston_Blade]

Obviously if a manager comes to you and says he's not happy and wants to work out a financial agreement to leave then a sensible person doing the best thing for the club tries to work that through with the manager. He doesn't just keep a severely unhappy employee. It's either a resignation or a mutual agreement brought about by Wilder.

I bow to your knowledge of what is going on. You obviously have a source that I don’t if you know the above to be correct.

 

[Rodley]

If you’re sacked the compo is pre agreed or you’re paid up in full. There’s no need for any negotiation

There is. You negotiate a severance package. Particularly if your employer expressly wants you to publicly depart “by mutual agreement”.

 

[Rodley]

I bow to your knowledge of what is going on. You obviously have a source that I don’t if you know the above to be correct.

Employment Lawyers are making money out of thin air apparently.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Why are we suddenly believing the board wanted him to leave?

because "we" ie: a number of us don't believe it and are waiting (patiently??) for the official confirmation/reason/statement whilst others speculate.

There will be something behind the lack of statement from the club and in a way it may be linked to a few journalists apparently knowing the LMA have been involved since January.

Something isn't quite right and hopefully the true reasons will become clear.

Don't know how many times this needs to be said, but he wasn't sacked

The truth of some is that this above is 100% correct - but again, until the club makes a statement all of this will just continue.

UTB

 

[Sean Thornton]

More likely the club wanting Celtics agreement to compensation than what we may owe CW. That’s probably the first thing agreed as the likelihood that it’s detailed in his contract.

 

[Barney]

I bow to your knowledge of what is going on. You obviously have a source that I don’t if you know the above to be correct.

We know it's very unlikely he was sacked, we know it's unlikely he resigned for nothing. We know that Wilder was not happy. So although I don't know the stated scenario to be correct, a sensible person sees it as the most likely by far given what we know.

 

[BobblesBlade]

Well done SUFC, in my lifetime of supporting you there’s been some absolutely shocking decisions. But this takes the biscuit.

I think kids use the phrase “banter club”. Christ, we’ve been masters at that for decades.

Welcome to the Wilderness Years, again.

Yeah man.

just quickly post the lottery numbers Rodders.

 

[Houston_Blade]

We know it's very unlikely he was sacked, we know it's unlikely he resigned for nothing. We know that Wilder was not happy. So although I don't know the stated scenario to be correct, a sensible person sees it as the most likely by far given what we know.

However you look at it, he’s been removed from or has left his role at the club due to him not towing the line. Apart from semantics it’s a sacking.

 

[Barney]

However you look at it, he’s been removed from or has left his role at the club due to him not towing the line. Apart from semantics it’s a sacking.

It really isn't though in my opinion. The owner hasn't really initiated any of this.

 

[bladeinspaceandtime]

When I saw the title of the thread I assumed it was about Wilder's recent transfer dealings.

 

[Houston_Blade]

It really isn't though in my opinion. The owner hasn't really initiated any of this.

Respect your opinion but don’t agree with it. In my view PA has been looking for a time to get ‘his man’ into the club, at the moment it’s the perfect excuse. Wilder acting out in the press conferences and the team struggling on the pitch.

 

[Rodley]

More likely the club wanting Celtics agreement to compensation than what we may owe CW. That’s probably the first thing agreed as the likelihood that it’s detailed in his contract.

I think that’s contingent on a rumour of Celtic interest, which is simply that. And it would solve the PR shitshow if Prince just openly acknowledged publicly that CW was off to Celtic. Wilder doesn’t have enough leverage to get the club on an NDA for this. SUFC absolutely want that out in the public domain as it stops the fan criticism. He’s off for European football, we couldn’t do owt, etc. So why isn’t it on the back pages now? You’d leak that straight off the bat if you were SUFC board.

Likewise I can’t see much play in negotiating Wilder’s notice period and payment in lieu being such a contentious process today, following his resignation. But something has been going on. That to me, logically, points to a termination and a more contentious negotiation, particularly if we want to badge it up as “by mutual consent” to save face.

Regardless of the minutiae, it’s a fundamental management failing that we will ultimately replace CW, with a much poorer manager and it will cost the business money.

Interested (genuinely) in your thoughts on this Sean Thornton.

 

[Greenblades]

However you look at it, he’s been removed from or has left his role at the club due to him not towing the line. Apart from semantics it’s a sacking.

Why is it a sacking? Has he been removed or did he ask to leave. ? In my opinion he has engineered this mess and time will tell.

 

[Barney]

Respect your opinion but don’t agree with it. In my view PA has been looking for a time to get ‘his man’ into the club, at the moment it’s the perfect excuse. Wilder acting out in the press conferences and the team struggling on the pitch.

Fair play that's your opinion, would say that's unlikely given the Prince has spoken publicly and recently more than once about his admiration for Wilder and how he would not sack him. That's greater evidence than there is for the idea that he wanted his 'own manager', I've not really seen any evidence for that idea.

 

[MalmoBlade]

Respect your opinion but don’t agree with it. In my view PA has been looking for a time to get ‘his man’ into the club, at the moment it’s the perfect excuse. Wilder acting out in the press conferences and the team struggling on the pitch.

Or Chris made several demands, none of which have been met, so he's off. That's not a sacking it's two things. One, a smokescreen to cover an unprecedented catastrophe of a season (in which he hasn't accepted any responsibility for one second). Two, it creates a friction that leads to a division where it's neither a sacking nor a resignation because he wants his compo.

he hasn't been sacked however you dress it up mate. Who is "his man" then who the Prince wants in his place? Surely not Paul Tindall! Appointing Tindall or Appleton suggests HRH is actually scrabbling around for help, not sliding in his long term favourite.

And if Chris has been sacked, why is his long-term friend and colleague Knilly supposedly staying if Chris has been treated so badly?

 

[spongebobblade]

The board didn’t and probably even now still don’t ‘want’ him to leave. They apparently talked him out of resigning in January.

But he has to accept this year hasn’t been good enough and the people who actually finance the club want to structure the club in line with other PL clubs. And if he can’t it’s best we all move on. Simple as that really.

Firstly, it’s Wilders achievements in getting us to the top table that’s financing the club, not from the owners pockets and secondly if we are going to structure the club in line with other PL clubs we should have started with bringing wages in line with other top flight clubs. Maybe then we might just have ended up with some of Wilders first choice targets. To excuse that in the first season and missing out on the likes of Maupay was understandable. To not kick on this year when our stock was high and miss out on first choice targets such as Robinson, Cash, Watkins etc. isn’t down to Wilder. This is the Premier league. If you want premier league players you have to pay premier league wages. Everything else is taking a huge risk

 

[spongebobblade]

Fair play that's your opinion, would say that's unlikely given the Prince has spoken publicly and recently more than once about his admiration for Wilder and how he would not sack him. That's greater evidence than there is for the idea that he wanted his 'own manager', I've not really seen any evidence for that idea.

I would say that by looking to get his own man in he meant Van Winkel as DOF. He didn’t want CW as manager but wanted him as a coach only

 

[MalmoBlade]

I would say that by looking to get his own man in he meant Van Winkel as DOF. He didn’t want CW as manager but wanted him as a coach only

What's wrong with "only" being Coach? It works for Pep and Klippety

As for CW financing the club by getting us to the PL, if you look at the costs of operating the club in the PL, and the wage bill, and the £130m spend, he's probably broke even so let's not get carried away

 

[Rodley]

Or Chris made several demands, none of which have been met, so he's off. That's not a sacking it's two things. One, a smokescreen to cover an unprecedented catastrophe of a season (in which he hasn't accepted any responsibility for one second). Two, it creates a friction that leads to a division where it's neither a sacking nor a resignation because he wants his compo.

he hasn't been sacked however you dress it up mate. Who is "his man" then who the Prince wants in his place? Surely not Paul Tindall! Appointing Tindall or Appleton suggests HRH is actually scrabbling around for help, not sliding in his long term favourite.

And if Chris has been sacked, why is his long-term friend and colleague Knilly supposedly staying if Chris has been treated so badly?

Not Paul Tindall at all, it’s Jason.

I take your point on it pointing to HRH not having a long term plan, but I understand Tindall knows Bettis so there’s a relationship and trust there to steady the ship / see out the season. If the CW thing has been so fractious for a period of time, I’ll be frank I’d expect SUFC to have a few managers in mind in advance of CW actually leaving. I’d expect that to be the case in high profile jobs if any business is considering or expecting a change. I think they call it “succession management”.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I think that’s contingent on a rumour of Celtic interest, which is simply that. And it would solve the PR shitshow if Prince just openly acknowledged publicly that CW was off to Celtic. Wilder doesn’t have enough leverage to get the club on an NDA for this. SUFC absolutely want that out in the public domain as it stops the fan criticism. So why isn’t it on the back pages now? You’d leak that straight off the bat.

Likewise I can’t see much play in negotiating Wilder’s notice period and payment in lieu being such a contentious process today, following his resignation. But something has been going on. That to me, logically, points to a termination and a more contentious negotiation, particularly if we want to badge it us as “by mutual consent” to save face.

Regardless of the minutiae, it’s a fundamental management failing that we will ultimately replace CW, with a much poorer manager and it will cost the business money.

Interested (genuinely) in your thoughts on this Sean Thornton.

Well I heard the rumour from a Celtic fan yesterday but chose to allude to it rather than wave my itk cock about.

We can all speculate. Could CW have done all this behind everyone’s back? I have no idea and have nothing to build any supposition on. The same as someone claiming that the board must have instigated all this. Based on nothing but bias.

It’s a big job, as things stand the biggest he may ever get. Should we knock him for that? If he’s been tapped up does it make any real difference if he wants out, other than regarding compo and a bit of bad publicity? This may suit the board, solves a possible issue maybe, gets a few quid from Celtic, reduces settlement payable to Chris etc etc. I could, like everyone else, go on with possibilities. (Not complete fantasies like the odd few) but l can’t set anything in stone because there isn’t enough out there. If you find out he did try to engineer the sack, would your opinion of him, over this, nothing else, change?

 

[Chingo]

So if wilder rocks up at Celtic in the next few weeks does United get any compensation ?

 

[MalmoBlade]

Not Paul Tindall at all, it’s Jason.

I take your point on it pointing to HRH not having a long term plan, but I understand Tindall knows Bettis so there’s a relationship and trust there to steady the ship / see out the season. If the CW thing has been so fractious for a period of time, I’ll be frank I’d expect SUFC to have a few managers in mind in advance of CW actually leaving. I’d expect that to be the case in high profile jobs if any business is considering or expecting a change. I think they call it “succession management”.

FFS Paul Tindall. Maybe that was Freudian and I actually prefer Paul to take over