Our possession stats on games we have lost.

[Fulwood Blade]

Middlesbrough (A) 51%
Cardiff (A) - 60%
Norwich (H) - 68%
Forest (A) - 58%
QPR (A) - 61%
Fulham (H) - 55%
Millwall (A) - 63%

We need to do better with this amount of possession.

Have some teams/opposition managers worked us out - even from the start of the season?

Is it lack of quality when we are camped in the final third - and the latest example was before Millwall scored their 2nd goal yesterday when we seemed to be entirely camped in their half?

Are our attackers/midfielders not that gifted in tight areas at the business end of the pitch?

There is a pattern emerging and it's not as if we didn't have this problem a few times last season either - then we were miles better especially January onwards.

What's the solutions to this...........

UTB

 

[Stretch]

Better wing play, maybe?

We are lacking down the right for obvious reasons [despite a decent performance from Bash] but am I the only one who thinks Stevens has dropped off in recent games?

 

[Ricky]

One thing that would help IMO is if we varied the crossing. Far too many are driven low. If we're going to do this all the time we need to get players attacking the front post more.

Even if you lack height in the box lofted crosses will still often lead to chances.

 

[DronnieBlade]

These stats confirm what we already know.

We are vulnerable to the counter. Particularly the quick counter.

We lack a disciplined DM in the mould of Makelele to consistently sit deep when our other defensive players bomb on. But having such a player in the side would, inevitably, afford some sort of compromise offensively.

Tough call for the gaffer.

UTB

 

[Fanny magnet]

This is where I was disappointed with Brooks yesterday (great goal aside)he just wasn't involved
I thought he'd been subbed at one poi t and if missed it as I just didn't see him

He should be the one making a difference in these games in a tight final third but he just seems to hang out wide looking for a killer pass from a team mate to get him in on goal

 

[Scooter_mcgavin]

We seem to have hit an era where defensive counter attacking football is successful (take Man C aside).

Man U has 26% possession yesterday when they went 3-1 up.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

We seem to have hit an era where defensive counter attacking football is successful (take Man C aside).

Man U has 26% possession yesterday when they went 3-1 up.

so........is front foot football not applicable the further up the football pyramid you go?

Do CW & AK - both sublime in lower league football have to modify their approach and therefore United's approach?

UTB

 

[Roygbiv]

Three things can be improved on I think. The main thing is that the delivery from the flanks has been poor of late. Particularly from the left with Stevens. Basham put a few really good balls in yesterday but was also guilty of slowing down attacks and losing the ball in good positions. Yesterday we got in countless great positions and simply wasted it. With more conviction and a better final ball we could have been out of sight by 60 minutes.

We do lack a defensive midfielder who can break play up. This isn't really much of a concern when you are dominating games and playing as quickly as we were last month as the opposition are less likely to risk pushing lots forward as they know they will be punished. At the minute though we are being too ponderous and slow so teams are more willing to hit us on the break and our defence is left isolated .

We lack a goalscoring midfielder. Somebody who will make a late run into the box and get a goal. Our midfielders are technically brilliant but aren't really ball winners or goalscorers.

Im not being negative with the above. I think every team in the world could improve in some way and it's just about striking the right balance. For instance if we put in a defensive midfielder then we will likely concede more possession. It's going to be interesting to see how things pan out and whether Wilder feels the need to change it. I don't think we are in crisis or anything and I'm still enjoying things and excited about what could happen despite this bad run.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Im not being negative with the above. I think every team in the world could improve in some way and it's just about striking the right balance. For instance if we put in a defensive midfielder then we will likely concede more possession. It's going to be interesting to see how things pan out and whether Wilder feels the need to change it. I don't think we are in crisis or anything and I'm still enjoying things and excited about what could happen despite this bad run.

It's not being negative at all.

Some teams play 4 at the back and with a defensive midfielder and push the full backs on.

It was exactly how Spurs played with Rose and Walker pushing on and Dier as the holding player.

That still means 3 effectively at the back, but the middle player is in front of the centre backs.

CW said he doesn't like calling midfielders defensive so does he have to tweak the approach to playing football at the top of the Championship?

UTB

 

[dc_blade]

Interesting topic, this. According to WhoScored, we spend more time in the opposition third than any other team in the division. The possession stats speak for themselves. At the same time, it sometimes feels like it's a bit sterile--pass the ball around from side to side near the oppo box without a great deal happening. And I think Roygbiv is right that we really suffer when the crossing is poor, as it's crucial to our style of play, which involves creating overloads down the wings.

Basically I think Wilder is trying to play a pretty advanced set of tactics with what are basically League One players. He wants us to create the sort of chances where it's easier to score than miss, and that involves us keeping the ball when other teams in the division would bang in a long-distance shot and see what happens. When it works, we're unplayable, and we've shown we can beat any team in the division. But I think it also relies on a) real wizardry in the middle, with lethal assist-making ability, and b) highly-mobile, clever strikers with great off-the-ball movement. In other words, he wants us to be Man City but instead of SIlva/De Bruyne and Aguerro, we have Duffy/Fleck and Leon Clarke. Sometimes they do it for us and sometimes they won't be able to, as was the case last night.

I'm leaving the defensive issues out of it because I don't really know what to think about that. I do really think we need a quick, clever, mobile striker to bring the best out of our style of play. I hoped Brooks might do it but he certainly didn't yesterday.

 

[ChipButtyBlade]

What sort of player could we get that would thrive on us having loads of the ball in the oppo's half,someone who likes keeping the ball and makes defenders shit themselves,are there any other Eden Hazards out there.

 

[Slim Man]

We faff around with it in the opposition third far far too long sometimes. Gives them time to get men back and the perfect pass we need to create a goal then becomes a 1%er.

 

[blademark]

Really interesting thread actually. It's clear to me that we are short of quality but only in about 3 positions, and I'm also sure that it's even clearer to CW.
Should be a very interesting January.

 

[AWetFlannel]

We seem to have hit an era where defensive counter attacking football is successful (take Man C aside).

Man U has 26% possession yesterday when they went 3-1 up.

I'll add spurs, chelsea, arsenal, liverpool in the prem.
Wolves aren't doing bad either.

 

[BigBed]

We just need a little luck on the injury front, January is a month away and there are some big games before then.
Baldock returning should liven things up abit, and is it me, and I am a big fan so don't take this wrong, but, should Duffy stay on the whole 90, cos he seems to slow down and drift out of games after 60/70mins??, not knocking him, I'd be fucked after 60seconds!!, but I would've liked Carruthers on yesterday for the final 20mins. Also not sure Donaldson was the correct substitution and I dont really understand him, 2 good goals on his debut and then he seems to have disappeared, not really done owt from the bench, is it just me???
Chedwyn will be fit soon, I really hope he can get back to his best, he can and will hit the 25/30yrd efforts, and we know he can score them, I really have a gut feeling that perched just behind Clarke, there will be goals!

 

[Fanny magnet]

so........is front foot football not applicable the further up the football pyramid you go?

Do CW & AK - both sublime in lower league football have to modify their approach and therefore United's approach?

UTB

I noticed as soon as we started playing in the championship and in the games I watched last season that every team sets up the same way
They full their team with as much physical strength and pace as they can and they set up to defend the edge of their are and spring a counter in the second phase of play
They stifle their attacking Intent through fear of being overpowered by a side playing as millwall did yesterday like a cup team against a top side
Cut the midfield out launch it into the channels chased lost causes and don't go e the opposition any time on the ball

This worked in our favour until recently as we do.ply overloaded teams with our forward play and they couldn't deal with it but now for what's er reason out defence doesn't seem to be able to deal with basic 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 situations we look exposed at the back
First half against millwall they had men over several times and for me it ones from a lack of organisation

We

We just need a little luck on the injury front, January is a month away and there are some big games before then.
Baldock returning should liven things up abit, and is it me, and I am a big fan so don't take this wrong, but, should Duffy stay on the whole 90, cos he seems to slow down and drift out of games after 60/70mins??, not knocking him, I'd be fucked after 60seconds!!, but I would've liked Carruthers on yesterday for the final 20mins. Also not sure Donaldson was the correct substitution and I dont really understand him, 2 good goals on his debut and then he seems to have disappeared, not really done owt from the bench, is it just me???
Chedwyn will be fit soon, I really hope he can get back to his best, he can and will hit the 25/30yrd efforts, and we know he can score them, I really have a gut feeling that perched just behind Clarke, there will be goals!

Donaldson has also had two starts since his injury and been anonymous in both games
Shame as I had high hopes for him after his debut
Sure he will come good but no striker came out of yesterday's game with any credit

 

[Dnblade]

This is where I was disappointed with Brooks yesterday (great goal aside)he just wasn't involved
I thought he'd been subbed at one poi t and if missed it as I just didn't see him

He should be the one making a difference in these games in a tight final third but he just seems to hang out wide looking for a killer pass from a team mate to get him in on goal

We couldn't seem to get him into the game 2nd half,same can be said of Clarke,but Brooks did tee up Fleck for his shot over the bar,and linked well with Clarke to play Billy in,although he was way offside.
I don't think he was that bad first half;apart from the over hit pass to Bash after carrying us forward well...and the run up to the Pen shout when he was a bit careless with the ball...looked like there was contact,but outside the box.
No or little service from wide areas seemed to be the problem..we need Baldock or Freeman back for me and we'd be instantly better..Bash back to RCB as he linked up well down the right from there...Down the left Enda looked to have a bit of an off day...Plenty of possesion,but didn't create or test their Keeper enough.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Middlesbrough (A) 51%
Cardiff (A) - 60%
Norwich (H) - 68%
Forest (A) - 58%
QPR (A) - 61%
Fulham (H) - 55%
Millwall (A) - 63%

We need to do better with this amount of possession.

Have some teams/opposition managers worked us out - even from the start of the season?

Is it lack of quality when we are camped in the final third - and the latest example was before Millwall scored their 2nd goal yesterday when we seemed to be entirely camped in their half?

Are our attackers/midfielders not that gifted in tight areas at the business end of the pitch?

There is a pattern emerging and it's not as if we didn't have this problem a few times last season either - then we were miles better especially January onwards.

What's the solutions to this...........

UTB

Every team even Man City right now sftruggle against parked buses. The higher we are the more buses will be parked.

We dont need to lose but our manager has to win come what may. So we lose some and win some, dont draw many.

 

[Woodwardfan]

Middlesbrough (A) 51%
Cardiff (A) - 60%
Norwich (H) - 68%
Forest (A) - 58%
QPR (A) - 61%
Fulham (H) - 55%
Millwall (A) - 63%

We need to do better with this amount of possession.

Have some teams/opposition managers worked us out - even from the start of the season?

Is it lack of quality when we are camped in the final third - and the latest example was before Millwall scored their 2nd goal yesterday when we seemed to be entirely camped in their half?

Are our attackers/midfielders not that gifted in tight areas at the business end of the pitch?

There is a pattern emerging and it's not as if we didn't have this problem a few times last season either - then we were miles better especially January onwards.

What's the solutions to this...........

UTB

Wednesday have similar stats.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Every team even Man City right now sftruggle against parked buses. The higher we are the more buses will be parked.

We dont need to lose but our manager has to win come what may. So we lose.

Ok, can accept that, but sooner or later CW will catch a cold with it.
He wants to manage in the Prem - West Brom (as an example) would kick him out very quickly after lets say 8 or 9 bad results playing that way - he simply would not survive long when a bad run invariably comes in that division with what are primarily foreign owners.

I think as time goes on and the more he and AK spend at this level they will have to alter the gung ho attitude. Not saying by much, but we can't have 63% possession playing away to Millwall and lose.

Tweaking the system has to be on the cards. Certainly on away games there is a good reason to stop the 3 x centre backs marauding forward as much. Our weakness, as pointed out by a few is over the top balls making us turn. My opinion of the crucial 2nd goal from Millwall is that Jake Wright would have easily cut out that ball as he doesn't move forward at all and would have read the danger.

UTB

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Wednesday have similar stats.

Sorry - couldn't really give a monkeys about the pigs stats.

For me it's all about making us better now and not missing out on a chance to definitely finish in the top 6.

UTB

 

[Woodwardfan]

Sorry - couldn't really give a monkeys about the pigs stats.

For me it's all about making us better now and not missing out on a chance to definitely finish in the top 6.

UTB

Oh forgive me, just a worthy point I thought.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Oh forgive me, just a worthy point I thought.

Of course you are forgiven - still don't give a monkeys about them though.

But off on a Wednesday tangent - their stats show extremely low percentages of ATTEMPTS on goal - and that is not from looking at their stats, it's from talking/listening to real live piggies bemoaning how they are actually playing. There isn't a happy one among them.

Recent quote at a company I work for on a regular basis "Who we playing on Saturday? - Erm, It's Reading away. Oh dear - do you think we will have a shot on target then? Nope, not how we are playing of late". These are dyed in the wool, 100% Wednesday ites.

Me? I keep a low profile - especially being a contractor.

As for us - at least we give ourselves a chance of winning games.

UTB

 

[jt64]

Possession is in a two horse race with shots on target for the most meaningless stat

 

[Woodwardfan]

Of course you are forgiven - still don't give a monkeys about them though.

But off on a Wednesday tangent - their stats show extremely low percentages of ATTEMPTS on goal - and that is not from looking at their stats, it's from talking/listening to real live piggies bemoaning how they are actually playing. There isn't a happy one among them.

Recent quote at a company I work for on a regular basis "Who we playing on Saturday? - Erm, It's Reading away. Oh dear - do you think we will have a shot on target then? Nope, not how we are playing of late". These are dyed in the wool, 100% Wednesday ites.

Me? I keep a low profile - especially being a contractor.

As for us - at least we give ourselves a chance of winning games.

UTB

"Gung ho" is alright then? No "tweak" needed after 1.3 seasons of success?

Complex issue is this. I've just checked on our Hillsborough win and we had 37% possession. Wed were 40%, 67%, 63%,63% and 42% in their defeats.

Lesser teams give you little room between the lines or in behind. More ambitious teams play a more open game and it is so much easier to play attacking football on the move rather than in front and across a back 10 that refuses to commit itself.

I do agree about Wright and I have my concerns about Stearman ( though he has not had chance to settle in to the club yet) and Vickers.

Agree Basham is best at right centre back, with O'Connell left of Wright. That's team selection though, not tactics.

Who knows we may have guaranteed Vickers playing time and Stearman is Wilder's biggest signing by far so it's understandable he expects him to be leading the back line in view of his experience and the financial outlay.

For that Millwall second goal there was hardly time for midfield to provide cover for O'Connell but as soon as he goes that is what should happen and nothing wrong with that. Surely Coutts wasn't doing that job, was he? Amazing tackle on JOC and a very good incisive goal on the counter attack, fair play.

 

[wavy-blade]

Middlesbrough (A) 51%
Cardiff (A) - 60%
Norwich (H) - 68%
Forest (A) - 58%
QPR (A) - 61%
Fulham (H) - 55%
Millwall (A) - 63%

We need to do better with this amount of possession.

Have some teams/opposition managers worked us out - even from the start of the season?

Is it lack of quality when we are camped in the final third - and the latest example was before Millwall scored their 2nd goal yesterday when we seemed to be entirely camped in their half?

Are our attackers/midfielders not that gifted in tight areas at the business end of the pitch?

There is a pattern emerging and it's not as if we didn't have this problem a few times last season either - then we were miles better especially January onwards.

What's the solutions to this...........

UTB

Means nothing , goals win games, simples !!!

 

[Caseh]

I think our issue is not having a RWB and more importantly, not having Coutts or a suitable replacement. This is by no means a criticism of Lundstram or Basham either, I just feel that natural wing backs and Coutts/that type of player are absolutely essential to the way we play. I imagine a replacement for Coutts is the priority target.

 

[Davalon]

I'm pretty sure you will see a number of ins and outs in January.

Not saying we'll be spending big, and I don't know names, but I expect to see changes.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Losing 7 games at this stage and still been 4th is quite impressive, be more impressive if in May we've only lost 8.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Means nothing , goals win games, simples !!!

You write the obvious - simples !!!!

What's the solution?

UTB