Our money healthy club?

[boo radley]

One person says we owe 48 million another person says only 2 million, its the way finance is structured.
It seems to me we can be thankful for mr McCabe. despite people going on about a % above LIBOR or whatever.
Not good at this link stuff but I'll have a go.
Click here

 

[DazBlade88]

I've actually got the Annual Report & Accounts for 2009 in front of me, and we do have £47.3m worth of debt.

But, we're not nearly struggling to pay it back due to transfer fees received, income from ticket sales and the value of our assets. We're just having to trim the wage bill to make sure we don't put ourselves in trouble.

Looking at it, I'd say we're more middle-ground and we're just being sensible. It's obviously not the best situation to be in, but we could be alot worse.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the Tevez money too, it's not surprising though. I don't remember much fuss about it...

 

[SE1Blade]

I'm not an expert on these things (so someone who is - feel free to correct me) but my understanding is the £48m figure is secured on properties and a large portion is the hotel and its a bit like a mortgage. If you buy a house for £100k and take a mortgage out you are technically £100k in debt, though its not something to worry about as you pay it off in affordable monthly installments over 25 years.
However, the money received by the hotel is paying those fees. So to continue my analogy, its a bit like buying a house, but then renting that house out and using the rent received to pay the mortgage.
Pretty good business sense though though as far as accounting is concerned you'd still be £100k in debt (which will reduce as you gradually pay it off).

The £2m figure, is what we laymen would call "debt". Which is not a great figure to worry about. Certainly not as large as some other clubs not so far away.....

 

[alcoblade]

the football club by itself (part of the PLC) is £2M in debt. The PLC is £48M in debt. Debt is debt. It doesn't matter what we spent it on, it's money we owe. But it is fair to say that unlike the pigs who've burned there's on long gone players wages, we've acquired property and business which, over time, should more than pay the interest on the debt and leave us stronger. Sadly, right now in recession UK, it doesn't.

UTB

 

[beightonblade]

If McCabes fed up i'll give him £48million and take a chance

 

[Bramley]

I'm not an expert on these things (so someone who is - feel free to correct me) but my understanding is the £48m figure is secured on properties and a large portion is the hotel and its a bit like a mortgage. If you buy a house for £100k and take a mortgage out you are technically £100k in debt, though its not something to worry about as you pay it off in affordable monthly installments over 25 years.
However, the money received by the hotel is paying those fees. So to continue my analogy, its a bit like buying a house, but then renting that house out and using the rent received to pay the mortgage.
Pretty good business sense though though as far as accounting is concerned you'd still be £100k in debt (which will reduce as you gradually pay it off).

The £2m figure, is what we laymen would call "debt". Which is not a great figure to worry about. Certainly not as large as some other clubs not so far away.....

Bloody hell if the revenue from the hotel is paying off the debt we're up sh*t creek without a paddle from what I've heard.

 

[cooperblade]

There's a championship money table in today's observer. We're graded e- for financial health. That makes us 7th best in the section with over half being classed as technically insolvent. Plymouth top the table.

 

[PeterNdlovu081]

Of the entire 44 clubs that make up the Premier League and the Championship, only 3 of them have no debt.

 

[Lund-Blade]

Do you have a link about that cooper?

 

[cooperblade]

Do you have a link about that cooper?

It's just a small piece in the paper. The data is from equifax. I'd type it out but i'm posting on my phone. Try googling equifax football table or something - might be online somewhere

 

[beightonblade]

positive finance an football dont go .......... i fell the bubble has burst and will become evident in 2010.

 

[puppet]

Bloody hell if the revenue from the hotel is paying off the debt we're up sh*t creek without a paddle from what I've heard.

And from Bramley's own 'our support' thread: I know we've always complained and moaned (its a Yorkshireman's prerogative), but the constant vitriolic and personal abuse on all mediums and the bile spewed out indiscriminately, trumped up people ring up P&G and demanding sackings on the back of what *they* know/heard/invented to fit their own deluded agendas

.... I know it looks like I'm trying my nuts off to argue with you but you seem to have gone against your own grain there - what basis do you have for saying that about the hotel?

 

[Autumn]

The accounts reflect what has been, and sometimes structuring accounts a certain way is needed. Most businesses have "debts"....You have to speculate to accumalate too.

But without saying it right out, sometimes it's better to have your assets tied up, than liquidated.....Tax *coughs*

 

[marshy]

Something doesn't ring true with Watford & Plymouth up near the top....

More than half of Championship clubs are technically insolvent, according to business information provider Equifax. Plymouth are the healthiest:
(Clubs graded A to F – with D an average financial health score, or I for insolvent

Score out of a 100 Insolvency rating
Plymouth 85 A
West Brom 83 A-
Derby 61 C+
Reading 54 C-
Scunthorpe 52 C-
Watford 42 D
Barnsley 39 I
Sheff Utd 30 E+
Ipswich 26 I
QPR 16 F+
Nttm Forest 13 I
Newcastle 11 I
Bristol City 10 I
Leicester 9 I
Preston 8 F
Doncaster 8 I
Cardiff 4 I
Peterborough 4 I
Sheff Wed 2 I
Swansea 2 I
Crystal Palace 2 I
Coventry 2 I
Middlesbrough 0 I
Blackpool 0 I

 

[ghandi]

positive finance an football dont go .......... i fell the bubble has burst and will become evident in 2010.

And they never have if truth be known but today's eye watering mountains of debt make it almost impossible for benefactors to save floundering clubs as they have done in the past. I suspect we will see a few clubs entering administration and it will interesting to see if Portsmouth become the first ever Premier club to go bust officially.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Something doesn't ring true with Watford & Plymouth up near the top....

Doesn't scoring Watford as a D somewhat undermine it given that they nearly went to the wall jut before Christmas. (I know it was their backer being a nob, but it doesn't suggest that all's well with their financial situation)

 

[Mad Mick]

Another interesting point is the difference between the assets and the debt. Loan to value. Were just on the upturn for commercial property, although there could well be another dip. But basically you couldn't pick a worse time to value your property portfolio. That said the values are likley to improve substantially over the next few years, and with inflation making the loan in real terms feel less, the only way is up.
That would make a good song title.
Like other's have said we just need to be prudent.

 

[alcoblade]

Another interesting point is the difference between the assets and the debt. Loan to value. Were just on the upturn for commercial property, although there could well be another dip. But basically you couldn't pick a worse time to value your property portfolio. That said the values are likley to improve substantially over the next few years, and with inflation making the loan in real terms feel less, the only way is up.
That would make a good song title.
Like other's have said we just need to be prudent.

question Mick - have we revalued our property portfolio? What's the rules regarding this? Clearly they will only me revalued at certain intervals.

UTB

 

[davidpinder]

Something doesn't ring true with Watford & Plymouth up near the top....

And Middleborough near the bottom i thought Gibsons lot were doing ok? they keep spending anyway.

 

[Silent Blade]

Doesn't scoring Watford as a D somewhat undermine it given that they nearly went to the wall jut before Christmas. (I know it was their backer being a nob, but it doesn't suggest that all's well with their financial situation)

I am also puzzled at how Plymouth are top of the table as they had a transfer embargo due to unpaid debts?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/plymouth_argyle/8442249.stm

 

[Autumn]

Equifax....the bane of my life those barstewards.

It does make you question the whole credit rating malarky seeing some of the clubs that are apparently healthy.

But I suppose it goes on what assets they have within the club, that they could sell....

 

[beightonblade]

Equifax....the bane of my life those barstewards.

It does make you question the whole credit rating malarky seeing some of the clubs that are apparently healthy.

But I suppose it goes on what assets they have within the club, that they could sell....

Credit Rating ..... Eqifax an the rest of em arn't that good !

Look at the triple A rating they gave sum of the debts the banks were shuffling about .

 

[Highbury_Blade]

i'm assuming all these figures are based figures released at the end of the tax year, so at best they're from April, or more likely based on accounts up until april 2008. Might explain the oddities?

 

[oldblade]

I'm not an expert on these things (so someone who is - feel free to correct me) but my understanding is the £48m figure is secured on properties and a large portion is the hotel and its a bit like a mortgage. If you buy a house for £100k and take a mortgage out you are technically £100k in debt, though its not something to worry about as you pay it off in affordable monthly installments over 25 years.
However, the money received by the hotel is paying those fees. So to continue my analogy, its a bit like buying a house, but then renting that house out and using the rent received to pay the mortgage.
Pretty good business sense though though as far as accounting is concerned you'd still be £100k in debt (which will reduce as you gradually pay it off).

According to the accounts, if I've read them correctly (I'm also no financial expert!) the hotel is losing money.

 

[oldblade]

In fact not only is the hotel losing money, so are the leisure operations and 'property ventures'.

The only bits that are making money are the football club and business centre. A touch ironic. I thought the club got involved in all these other things to provide income streams to support the football club, not the other way round!

 

[SouthEssexBlade]

Well if you read this and believe what he's saying there are quite a few clubs much further up the creek flowing with shite with no implements of steerage than we are.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/8453337.stm

 

[oldblade]

It just strikes me that £47.304 million is a lot of debt. I realise that this is for the whole group, but there don't seem to be many parts of that group making much money. Also the accounts seemed to include £18.093 million from West Ham, which I don't believe we have received yet, and which I thought were staggered over a number of years.

My lack of any expertise in these areas is such that I wouldn't even rate being called a novice. But, without the West Ham money appearing in the accounts wouldn't the football part of the group also have made a loss and the true amount of debt be £65 million?

 

[beightonblade]

In fact not only is the hotel losing money, so are the leisure operations and 'property ventures'.

The only bits that are making money are the football club and business centre. A touch ironic. I thought the club got involved in all these other things to provide income streams to support the football club, not the other way round!

Hey up.........

Just watch commercial properties rise in the next few years !
reight now their at rock bottom, some funny business happening with freeholds changing hands for next to nowt.

In my opinion investing in commercial property reight now wud be a wise choice.

 

[Micalijo]

It just strikes me that £47.304 million is a lot of debt. I realise that this is for the whole group, but there don't seem to be many parts of that group making much money. Also the accounts seemed to include £18.093 million from West Ham, which I don't believe we have received yet, and which I thought were staggered over a number of years.

My lack of any expertise in these areas is such that I wouldn't even rate being called a novice. But, without the West Ham money appearing in the accounts wouldn't the football part of the group also have made a loss and the true amount of debt be £65 million?

No, I don't think so anyway. The Tevez wedge does not affect the net debt figure, which is the amount owing to banks, McCabe etc.

If we had lost the Tevez case, the debt figure will have been the same £47m. When the Tevez cash comes in (as opposed to the income being recognised in the accounts) it will be used to clear some of the debts.

Without Naughton, Walker and the Tevez win it is very scary to think where we would be.

I really am angry about these property links and couldn't agree more with comments above that the football club appears to be smoothing the cash flow of the property business.