Our Defense

[Fulwood Blade]

Most successful higher level teams have a fast strong defensive midfielder who protects the back 4 and also stays deep when they attack.

UTB

yep, key phrase.

I remember CW saying he didn't like the phrase "defensive midfielder", which I can understand. Just think the Chelsea model may become fashionable after what Conte has now brought in. We also play with 3 at the back, but they have Kante patrolling all across the back line.

Just wonder if CW & AK will have to alter their philosophy as we go up - both do not have experience of a higher level.

Time will tell.

UTB

 

[1danewhitehouse]

So, I know we're (mostly) all happy and we're top of the league etc. etc. but does anyone else think we concede far too many goals? Is it down to the way we set up as a team?

I'm just a little concerned on how we can improve on this aspect of our game. The individual players all seem to get plenty of praise, Moore, Lafferty, Basham, O'connel, Ebanks Landell, Wright all have their fans but there must be a weak link somewhere. Is it down to the Midfield?

Tell me to shut up and enjoy being top of the league but Wilder and Knill must surely be working on this behind the scenes

We don’t have the complete centre half. We have JOC and EEL who are very good physically as they are big strong lads who can attack everything. We have Jake Wright who is excellent mentally in terms of his concentration and decision making but not as imposing as the other two. We have Basham who is decent physically and good at playing out from the back and has a great attitude.


I also think that the way we play can leave us exposed at the back but for me it’s worth it to see a team that creates so many chances and scores so many goals. We’ve 9 goals in our last 4 games now conceding 6 along the way. Before that we didn’t concede for 3 games in a row scoring 5 along the way. As long as we’re scoring more than we’re conceding, I’m happy.

 

[1danewhitehouse]

Interesting thread....so often it's the defence that takes responsibility for a goal being scored. But advocates of the analytical aspects of the game often look at where a move breaks down as the point where a goal becomes a probability. Perhaps we should ask if the midfield are doing their job properly? Are we being caught out at a point where we least expect to give the ball away? I'm curious to know if anyone else considers the defence needs more help/protection from other areas of the team. Certainly, conceding 5 goals in two games isn't impressive, and just a bit worrying.

I think the midfield (especially Fleck) had an off day Saturday and that contributed to us conceding 3 goals.


We play with 3 at the back and don’t have an out and out defensive midfielder which is always likely to leave us somewhat exposed but gives us loads of attacking threat. Again, I’ll take that as it sees us dominate games and more often than not, outscore the opposition.

 

[Grecian2000]

Players who with all due respect are not featuring now, will struggle to feature next season.

Wilson, Hussey, Reed, McNulty, O'Shea, Clarke, Scougall, Chapman. These are 8 who should go, they have not added to the team in a major way other than cover, to enable us to bring in very good replacements. That makes the squad strong in my opinion.

Agree with that first sentence, not 100% sure about the names offered up in the second.

Not seen nearly enough of O'Shea to judge and Chapman was doing well prior to his injury. Too early to write him off in my view.

 

[veganblade]

As much as I'm excited for how we can develop if we do reach 'La Liga' next season, I do think re-inforcements are needed in all areas. As much as we (more often than not) dominate the teams against us even when we do leak goals, we'll have to prepare to be outplayed by a fair few teams next season and perhaps more formation changes. It only takes Riley and Wright to be out and defensively we're limited on cover. Pace is important but so too is physicality; besides Hanson and EEL we are quite a small team. A player I'd like to see brought in is someone similar to Jonny Shackell's (Derby) or Tom Clarke's (PNE) pedigree based on comments from their fans and my own observations.

All I hope is that Championship players are more accessible in our budget and interest than looting league one's 'best'. Quality over quantity imo.

It may not be apropriate for me to talk recruitment for next season in this thread but interesting to point out 13/top 15 Championship teams have squads with over 50% foreign players (Barnsley and QPR are the exceptions). Is it time we cast the scouting net abit further?

Food for thought...

UTB!

 

[larkymasher]

Agree with that first sentence, not 100% sure about the names offered up in the second.

Not seen nearly enough of O'Shea to judge and Chapman was doing well prior to his injury. Too early to write him off in my view.

My view is that if they are not making an impact now, how can they be expected to make an impact next season.

Chapman will go back to Middleboro and if looks likely they will go down, i would expect Chapman to stay put with them. I must say though i would think O'Shea has probs sorted out a longer contract with us and it was purely a time issue it was made as a loan deal in January.

I am aware players divide opinion but i hope you kind of get my drift....

 

[itsinyerblood]

I think the midfield (especially Fleck) had an off day Saturday and that contributed to us conceding 3 goals.


We play with 3 at the back and don’t have an out and out defensive midfielder which is always likely to leave us somewhat exposed but gives us loads of attacking threat. Again, I’ll take that as it sees us dominate games and more often than not, outscore the opposition.

I think the principle is fine dane, score one more than our opponents and we'll be ok. Trouble is, our dependency, and that's precisely what it is, on Sharp to get us out of jail would be scuppered if Sharp suffered an injury. Who currently would we turn to then? And who would plug the hole(s) that seem to appear quite easily? Wherever we fall down, be it defence, or, as you identify, a midfield that cannot suffocate the opportunities that the opposing team seem able to create.

There are several teams who depend on good health and the absence of injury to allow our most potent scorer the chance to continue improving our goals for. Tottenham have the same issue with Kane, so we're not alone, but should either team lose their top scorer then where do either of us turn? Hopefully, come the summer, before next season's campaign in the Championship begins, we'll attempt to sign another forward who is known for his ability to convert chances. It could be that we have an existing strike force that will keep my concerns at bay, maybe the likes of Lavery will show the quality we need to gather the points to ensure we stay in the Championship. But the overall question remains, as much as I love the way we play, there's still a deficiency that may contribute to problems in future.

 

[Benny and the Blades]

Well we can analyse all we like but what is a solid fact is we are 8 points clear and who ever attended those last two matches saw 11 goals,and that alone would be worth anybody's attendance fee no matter who you supported.
Add to that we've also taken 4 away points out of it, you've got to be a pedantic nutter to start complaining.
He is doing exactly what it said on the tin when he was hired, he is going for it, and I for one support him fully.
What we see at matches now win lose or draw may be occasionally disappointing but it's never dull and always entertaining...

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think the principle is fine dane, score one more than our opponents and we'll be ok. Trouble is, our dependency, and that's precisely what it is, on Sharp to get us out of jail would be scuppered if Sharp suffered an injury. Who currently would we turn to then? And who would plug the hole(s) that seem to appear quite easily? Wherever we fall down, be it defence, or, as you identify, a midfield that cannot suffocate the opportunities that the opposing team seem able to create.

There are several teams who depend on good health and the absence of injury to allow our most potent scorer the chance to continue improving our goals for. Tottenham have the same issue with Kane, so we're not alone, but should either team lose their top scorer then where do either of us turn? Hopefully, come the summer, before next season's campaign in the Championship begins, we'll attempt to sign another forward who is known for his ability to convert chances. It could be that we have an existing strike force that will keep my concerns at bay, maybe the likes of Lavery will show the quality we need to gather the points to ensure we stay in the Championship. But the overall question remains, as much as I love the way we play, there's still a deficiency that may contribute to problems in future.

I think any system has deficiencies. This one allows more attacking freedom at the cost of some defensive vulnerability. Personally I don't mind that as it makes us better to watch. At a higher level, it might need tweaking but the way we're playing now is befitting of our status as the biggest and best club in the division. We should be on the front foot, bombing forward taking the game to the opposition confident that we will ultimately have too much for them. At a higher level, against better opposition, we might need a re-think but for me, how we're playing perfectly suits our aims for the season. That's why many said Clough might have been better for us in the championship because his style relied on keeping tight and nicking goals on the break. In a league we're not expected to dominate, that approach might be more acceptable.

 

[itsinyerblood]

I think any system has deficiencies. This one allows more attacking freedom at the cost of some defensive vulnerability. Personally I don't mind that as it makes us better to watch. At a higher level, it might need tweaking but the way we're playing now is befitting of our status as the biggest and best club in the division. We should be on the front foot, bombing forward taking the game to the opposition confident that we will ultimately have too much for them. At a higher level, against better opposition, we might need a re-think but for me, how we're playing perfectly suits our aims for the season. That's why many said Clough might have been better for us in the championship because his style relied on keeping tight and nicking goals on the break. In a league we're not expected to dominate, that approach might be more acceptable.

There's a logic in there that I'm struggling to disagree with, well put, and yes, I am loving the way we play. It's such a welcome change from what we've been used to. Must admit, I loved some of our moments under Clough, and Adkins, well you can sweep him up never to be heard of again as far as I'm concerned (yes, even though I know he brought Sharp back to the Blades). But it's been Wilder that has brought about a revolution, rather than evolution. There are many cliches surrounding football management, one being that it takes a season or three for a manager to make a team a reflection of his playing style. Well Chris has done it in under a season! That includes a disastrous beginning, since then we've grown and developed into the undoubted Champions that we will become. I know there are those who shy away from brash statements, but fuck it, here we are, 8 points separating us from the team in second place, and we're meant to whisper the fact that we're going up as Champions?

I hope we never lose our swagger. I want tactical nous, I want good defensive play (oh for another McGrath!), and I want midfielders who can not only show superb skills but are prepared to tackle and impose themselves on our opponents. Most of all I want forwards who know how to break down a defence, much as we currently have. And MOST of all I want a manager who knows what he's doing and remains loyal to the Blades (did anyone say 'Wilder?').

 

[1danewhitehouse]

I think the principle is fine dane, score one more than our opponents and we'll be ok. Trouble is, our dependency, and that's precisely what it is, on Sharp to get us out of jail would be scuppered if Sharp suffered an injury. Who currently would we turn to then? And who would plug the hole(s) that seem to appear quite easily? Wherever we fall down, be it defence, or, as you identify, a midfield that cannot suffocate the opportunities that the opposing team seem able to create.

There are several teams who depend on good health and the absence of injury to allow our most potent scorer the chance to continue improving our goals for. Tottenham have the same issue with Kane, so we're not alone, but should either team lose their top scorer then where do either of us turn? Hopefully, come the summer, before next season's campaign in the Championship begins, we'll attempt to sign another forward who is known for his ability to convert chances. It could be that we have an existing strike force that will keep my concerns at bay, maybe the likes of Lavery will show the quality we need to gather the points to ensure we stay in the Championship. But the overall question remains, as much as I love the way we play, there's still a deficiency that may contribute to problems in future.

The point about Sharp "getting us out of jail" isn't how I see it. I see a very good striker for this level profiting from playing in a team that plays attacking football and creates a shed load of chances. I don't think any of our other strikers would score as many as him but if we had say Hanson and Lavery up front, I still think we'd score a fair few. It's not like it's a situation (like with Ched) where Sharp is picking the ball up on half way, beating defenders and smashing them in from distance. He is mainly capitalising on a team performance that is geared up to providing him with the chances he is sticking away.

 

[Davalon]

I don't like being critical this season as we've surpassed my expectations, and I've enjoyed the style of play probably more than any in the decades I've been watching us. Add to that I've been critical enough in recent years.

However I think it's a reasonable point raised in the OP.

Like many others I think we look better organised with Wright and it's clearly no coincidence we haven't lost in his 20 games or so. That said we've still conceded a few with him in the team.

Where I think we've been found out a few times is with the back 3. Teams have exploited the gaps in the channels at times, either with the right or left centre half pulling out wide and leaving a gap, or when the wing back gets caught up field and there's loads of space to cross.

 

[itsinyerblood]

The point about Sharp "getting us out of jail" isn't how I see it. I see a very good striker for this level profiting from playing in a team that plays attacking football and creates a shed load of chances. I don't think any of our other strikers would score as many as him but if we had say Hanson and Lavery up front, I still think we'd score a fair few. It's not like it's a situation (like with Ched) where Sharp is picking the ball up on half way, beating defenders and smashing them in from distance. He is mainly capitalising on a team performance that is geared up to providing him with the chances he is sticking away.

Agree with your point of view, except I think we make hard work of beating other teams. I'll stand by my statement that Sharp has helped us 'get out of jail' on more than one occasion, but happy to split hairs where this is concerned. As you say, we're looking like a seriously decent team going forward. Think improved supply from the fullbacks would help, or wherever the pass happens to come from.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

There's a logic in there that I'm struggling to disagree with, well put, and yes, I am loving the way we play. It's such a welcome change from what we've been used to. Must admit, I loved some of our moments under Clough, and Adkins, well you can sweep him up never to be heard of again as far as I'm concerned (yes, even though I know he brought Sharp back to the Blades). But it's been Wilder that has brought about a revolution, rather than evolution. There are many cliches surrounding football management, one being that it takes a season or three for a manager to make a team a reflection of his playing style. Well Chris has done it in under a season! That includes a disastrous beginning, since then we've grown and developed into the undoubted Champions that we will become. I know there are those who shy away from brash statements, but fuck it, here we are, 8 points separating us from the team in second place, and we're meant to whisper the fact that we're going up as Champions?

I hope we never lose our swagger. I want tactical nous, I want good defensive play (oh for another McGrath!), and I want midfielders who can not only show superb skills but are prepared to tackle and impose themselves on our opponents. Most of all I want forwards who know how to break down a defence, much as we currently have. And MOST of all I want a manager who knows what he's doing and remains loyal to the Blades (did anyone say 'Wilder?').

Can I ask one thing of you and others - don't discount Alan Knill in all of what has happened this season. In the same way as Brian Clough was heralded at Forest/Derby, Peter Taylor was the unsung/quiet individual who pulled a lot of the strings - same as Knill here.

UTB

 

[itsinyerblood]

Can I ask one thing of you and others - don't discount Alan Knill in all of what has happened this season. In the same way as Brian Clough was heralded at Forest/Derby, Peter Taylor was the unsung/quiet individual who pulled a lot of the strings - same as Knill here.

UTB

Fulwood, I wouldn't request that you trawl back through my posts, but some time ago I dedicated a post to the very fact that Knill was an essential component in United's success. The fact that Knill's name may not appear in my pots is similar to why I don't mention our chief scout, both vital in this run we've had, but Wilder ultimately takes responsibility for everything that happens, so naturally he gets the most mentions.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

Fulwood, I wouldn't request that you trawl back through my posts, but some time ago I dedicated a post to the very fact that Knill was an essential component in United's success. The fact that Knill's name may not appear in my pots is similar to why I don't mention our chief scout, both vital in this run we've had, but Wilder ultimately takes responsibility for everything that happens, so naturally he gets the most mentions.

then my apologies.

UTB

 

[itsinyerblood]

then my apologies.

UTB

No need to apologise, I'm a good example of someone who struggles to research what other poster's write, so often comment on what I read in the moment and fail to see the bigger picture. Think we both appreciate the hard work that everyone connected with our management team has been responsible for achieving this season.

 

[Maidenhead]

This thread is turning into paralysis by analysis.

It's a simple game, you just have to put it in at one end and keep it out at the other

 

[itsinyerblood]

This thread is turning into paralysis by analysis.

It's a simple game, you just have to put it in at one end and keep it out at the other

On the surface you're spot on fella, trouble is, far too many managers and 'pundits' have made the same shout without giving a thought to how teams and players actually go about finding a way of winning regularly. Saying that all you've got to do is score or defend well states the obvious. It's why we have teams in the relegation zone, they have no idea how to do either to a standard that will bring success.

 

[blade too long]

we attack more leaving ourselves open to concede a few more , but it is a few more

take bolton foe example , they build on defending , have let in just a few less BUT have scored 20 odd less than us

it depends whether youd rather win 4-1 away
or 1-0

I know which is more entertaining
we do concede a lot of worldies , 10 of the top 20 goals this season must be against us

 

[HolmesfieldBlade]

If we play 3 5 2 with wing backs we need wing backs. I love Freemans attitude but he is not a wing back He is a mediocre defender who likes to get forward but has a weak final delivery. Lafferty is a full back not awing back.
If we get to the Championship we need to sign a right wing back who is also good enough as a defender to play in a flat back four. Personally I dont think EEL is going to be good enough and therefore we need to sign a top class centre back. If we could get Chapman and riley back on loan would we need any other additions depending of course who we release

Perhaps someone with a great big black beard?

 

[PokerBlade]

I'm a bit concerned by some of the sloppy goals we concede. We do an excellent job of limiting the opposition's chances by dominating possession, and I think that goes a long way in the graphics of shots faced per game. You also have to measure that Wilder very keenly goes for all three points, and we've frequently finished games by piling attackers on for defensive players. That naturally opens you up to conceding more, but it's a percentage game where we're clearly the more likely to profit from opening the game up.

As for improvements needed if we succeed, I remember the lists people drew up of our players that would cut it in the Prem. Many of the players we thought might make it got caught out (granted, that side was a spectacular run of events from achieving its goal). We'll need improvements everywhere. It's that simple. Better defence, midfield additions, another striker, possibly another keeper even. It'll be a case of whether Wilder can show his obvious talents in recruitment at a higher level, and also what money is injected into the side at board level.

I think that's all moot at this stage anyway. Every side that gets promoted has to improve to compete, and I have no reason to think we can't attract players.

 

[BushBlade]

This thread is turning into paralysis by analysis.

It's a simple game, you just have to put it in at one end and keep it out at the other

Too right. Some people must be bored shitless to post in length about a problem we don't have.

We concede goals because we attack a lot. Because we attack a lot, we score goals. Our goal difference is fine. We're top of the league. We're going up.

 

[Doormat]

We need Bergen Blade to wade in on this. I did mention in the OP that it may be a midfield issue. When I've listened into the matches on the radio Keith always says "no problem with that goal, well played by the opposition" or something along those lines but we need to make sure they don't get into those goal scoring positions somehow

Think the difference is that Keith Edwards sees it live, once, without the luxury of replays.
We (or I) tend to watch it over and over and get to see a lot more on second or third viewings.

 

[coaxingstar71]

If we play 3 5 2 with wing backs we need wing backs. I love Freemans attitude but he is not a wing back He is a mediocre defender who likes to get forward but has a weak final delivery. Lafferty is a full back not awing back.
If we get to the Championship we need to sign a right wing back who is also good enough as a defender to play in a flat back four. Personally I dont think EEL is going to be good enough and therefore we need to sign a top class centre back. If we could get Chapman and riley back on loan would we need any other additions depending of course who we release

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Only my opinion of course, but I think both Freeman and Lafferty are both better players going forward and indeed do get forward, quite far forward in the case of Freeman. This then puts pressure on the 3 centre-backs who could then be marking 2 forwards and 2 wingers (in a conventional 442). When you then look at the excellent analysis charts provided, you can see, and what we all know to be true, that Wilder has got us defending from the front, therefore we are dominating games, spending more time attacking than defending. However, the downside is that we can get caught on the break which ultimately means that the opposition have clearer cut chances (because there are less players around) and therefore we concede a higher percentage of the shots on target we defend. When you see how we set up, particularly at BDTBL, we look more like 3-5-2 with Freeman and Lafferty positioned more like wingers than full backs.

Of course, it's a calculated risk - the more time the play is in the opposition half : a. you are more likely to score b. the opposition are less likely to score.

It will interesting to see, presuming we do get promoted, if Wilder changes the way he wants us to play, with the assumption that we won't be able to dominate play as much and will have to play more without the ball. From what we've seen, this doesn't suit Freeman or Lafferty. One possible solution on the right could be to bring Brayford back in the RB/RWB role and play Freeman in a more advanced role as a sort of defensive winger, which I think would suit his play.

I can also see us signing at least 2 or 3 new defenders, one being a proper defensive LB and at least one CB, for no other reason that it's unlikely that EEL will be here next season having signed an extended contract with Wolves who are actually in danger of getting relegated. We could also opt to play JOC as a strong LB which would leave another CB place.

Strangely, I think Wright could still play a pivotal role in the Champ as he doesn't rely on strength and pace, but on timing and his reading of the game, invaluable at any level. Bobby Moore - not fast and not the strongest, Paul McGrath etc etc.

 

[Fulwood Blade]

we attack more leaving ourselves open to concede a few more , but it is a few more

take bolton foe example , they build on defending , have let in just a few less BUT have scored 20 odd less than us

it depends whether youd rather win 4-1 away
or 1-0

I know which is more entertaining
we do concede a lot of worldies , 10 of the top 20 goals this season must be against us

You are of course right in wanting to win 1-4 - but what I fail to understand of some (and you can include or exclude your self), is that there is always room for improvement.

On a personal note, I think we should have scored more considering the amount of possession we have and therefore have more points. I have stated before that we are not so good in the 18 yard box - very good up to it. Very happy to be top, would be even happier if we were more clinical, and it's just something we should work on.

We shouldn't settle for just being top - some of us are greedy for more and just to constantly get better.

To use your example, winning 1-4 away is good - why not strive for 0-4.

UTB

 

[ucandomagic]

Generally defended quite well in this game.

Not really to blame for the Oxford goals - except perhaps that Lafferty was shattered for the second and let the guy walk past him in the build up.

Not happy with the goal that they didn't score though - initially I thought Moore saved it but it looks on the highlights as though Lafferty put in a great block. However, it came from a free kick which was headed back and again, like the Scunthorpe game where Madden scored, Oxford had a player running into the box unmarked about 12 yards out (on the front right of the screen). He knocks it towards goal and they nearly score. We really need somebody patrolling the edge of the box and covering the late run in, as otherwise everybody then tends to run towards him and leave gaps behind.

Improvements for next season now though - we have got through a really tough set of fixtures and come out stronger - we are winning on character as much as on ability and that is what makes Champions.

UTB

 

[nicksufc]

We allow fewer shots at our goal than any other team in the division which suggests that our defence are doing an excellent job. However, when opponents do get a chance, we're easier to score against (it takes fewer shots per goal) than all bar two teams.

This could suggest a number of things:

* We have a weak goalkeeper who doesn't save many shots
* When we allow a shot, it is usually a high quality chance (from a central area not far from goal)
* We've been unlucky (opponents have scored at an unsustainably high rate) and it will even itself out


I think Moore is a bit over-rated by United fans generally and has been a fault for a few goals but he isn't a weak goalkeeper and his shot-stopping is usually good / excellent. He certainly isn't a Bunn / Howard type who regularly lets in powderpuff long range efforts.

This visual corrects for shot quality and doesn't suggest we should be conceding many.

So to conclude, we've just been unlucky from a defensive point of view and it won't stop us winning the league at a canter


(Think it'll need sorting next season though - might be an unpopular view but Wright, whilst an excellent organiser, might not be up to scratch against higher quality strikers. It could be a Stancliffe in Division 1 scenario where he gets sacrificed early on)

Credit to https://experimental361.com/

That's an excellent analysis and a million miles better than any of the guff you see on the telly - particularly when it comes to Football League analysis which is reduced to Chris Iwelumo and Adam Virgo having striker-defender 'banter'. Cringey.

We 100% need to tighten up the defence next season - it's only anecdotal evidence but I remember so many goals against us coming on the counter-attack. I think teams in the league above could potentially take us apart on the break because they have the quality to beat our press.

My suggestions:

1) Stick with the same formation, but have two quality players for the wingback role. Freeman and Lafferty have often looked tired (no surprise) and therefore exposed, so giving them a more sustained rest would help loads. We have Brayford waiting in the wings which could be a perfect option given he still seems to be a little injured. Could do a Ledley King-esque job for us.

2) Play with a defensive midfielder. Out of our normal midfield trio none of them are that pacey or defensive, so on the break a lot of teams have sliced straight through the middle of us. A pacey defensive mid as a bit of insurance could be the key.

 

[borbokis]

Too right. Some people must be bored shitless to post in length about a problem we don't have.

Sorry, would you like to forward me your list of approved topics? One thing that really pisses me off is people complaining that a thread is pointless. There's plenty of other stuff online to keep you occupied mate if this isn't floating your boat so off you go

 

[BushBlade]

Sorry, would you like to forward me your list of approved topics? One thing that really pisses me off is people complaining that a thread is pointless. There's plenty of other stuff online to keep you occupied mate if this isn't floating your boat so off you go

It's a forum. My opinion is that we don't have a problem with our defence. If you don't like my opinion don't post stuff on a forum where people are encouraged to offer their opinion.