Our club is inherently broken, but current on-pitch issues are distracting from the bigger picture.

[JayGreen17]

Shouldn’t the debate as to what we should/want to become, be finalised before all your suggestions ? It assumes that change is wanted by all(including the owners) and not just some.

The only comms from the club we have had is that they want us to become more ‘modern’ in every aspect of the club, thus far it seems that this couldn’t be further than the truth! and with next to no comms from them, we have no idea of actual strategy or any short medium or long term plan.

 

[finlaytheblade]

You're contradicting yourself here. You've quoted Roygbiv post about the structure at Sunderland. I don't know for a fact but I'd hazard a guess that the DOF was the 1st through the door and then set about getting the right people for all the other roles.

Not one person is suggesting we just employ a DOF and no one else but if the DOF isn't the 1st through the door to then facilitate the uplift in staff and roles then who does?

Whether you agree or not the DOF role, or whatever version of the same role, oversees the entire football function bar coaching the 1st team so it makes sense for him to get the people he thinks best in the various roles behind the scenes.

CW maybe our future DOF which would mean he chose his successor.
Puts Blades 1st and has many contacts in the game.
Maybe down the road a bit but someone who beleaves in the club and puts the club 1st.

 

[Foody]

I have absolutely no issue with the outrun, outfight, outplay approach. Having an identity and level of consistency is the key to long term success. The issue is when you then suddenly move away from that without a long term strategy. When you then appoint a manager who wants a different style they don't have the squad for it, so you have to recruit, if that then fails you end up with a mismatched squad without an identity, just like we have now.

If you take the previous managers you listed, none of them were really able to shape the squad in their image. Slav especially was really stitched up in this regard. We didn't make any senior permanent signings under him.

Does a DOF solve this? Depends whether you can find the right one. If we don't have faith in owners to appoint the right manager, who appointments the right DOF. Look at Norwich, they were a relatively early adopter of the model, yet have been stagnant/moving backwards for a while now. Unless you happen to be able to attract a really talented DOF, the idea that they can dramatically change the fortunes of a club is beyond optimistic.

Our issue right now is that if we want to modernise our support staff and structure it would require significant investment. At a time where our revenue is about to take an almighty hit. It's easy in hindsight to say that's where we should've invested premier League money. But that money has long since been spent/ wasted.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Wilder said at the time that the club was really surprised with how much everyone else spent in the summer of 2020. Having made a big profit in 2020 (the largest in European football) we were well placed to spend some money, but as is well documented we got blown out of the water on some transfer targets.

Plus of course the transfer business we did do was almost uniformly awful.

The largest profit in European football? The 19/20 accounts showed a net profit of £17.6m (18/19 £17m loss 20/21 £9.6m profit). Chelsea for one made £32m that year.



That profit didn’t come close to cover the £66m spend on player transfers. Even taking into account the non cash amortisation charge.

 

[Sean Thornton]

CW maybe our future DOF which would mean he chose his successor.
Puts Blades 1st and has many contacts in the game.
Maybe down the road a bit but someone who beleaves in the club and puts the club 1st.

CW as DoF - l’ve found this striker, £25m…

Manager - Err…….

 

[themaninblack]

Great thread; interesting comments, discussion without insults and many interesting opinions.
Up with this sort of thing!

 

[Revolution]

The largest profit in European football? The 19/20 accounts showed a net profit of £17.6m (18/19 £17m loss 20/21 £9.6m profit). Chelsea for one made £32m that year.



That profit didn’t come close to cover the £66m spend on player transfers. Even taking into account the non cash amortisation charge.

That was how it was announced at the time. I am sure of that. One thing to note was that United used a different accounting date to some clubs.

Perhaps it was the largest profit at the time it was announced.

As you say, that money did not cover what we spent, highlighting how overmatched we were.

 

[KMC-1889]

That was how it was announced at the time. I am sure of that. One thing to note was that United used a different accounting date to some clubs.

Perhaps it was the largest profit at the time it was announced.

As you say, that money did not cover what we spent, highlighting how overmatched we were.

I think it was probably United’s most profitable year in our history, I’m struggling to think of a time we would have earned more money.

 

[Addison]

Its a misconception to believe it will cost shed loads to make a business more efficient. Having been involved in a number of acquisitions and mergers the converse is true. Any new owner worth their salt would have employed experts to carry out due diligence. This in turn should have led to an efficiency and improvement plan to move the business forward. That in turn should have influenced the organisation structure that was a requirement of the EFL O and D process.

The reality is if you don't employ the necessary expertise and just adopt carte blanche what went before you will be left with a loss making buggers muddle. Unfortunately from the outside looking in it seems our current owners opted for the latter as events to date in their current tenure would indicate.

PA in the court case stated he was looking to bring in Deloittes consultants to carry out a root and branch review of the whole of SUFC's structure and working practices. It seems there was never a desire for it so the status quo remained. I was hopeful new owners would lead to an overhaul of an inefficient off field operation. It hasn't happened to date and this change averse approach means we are destined to aimlessly plod along.

A DOF on its own will not provide an instant magic solution but the case for one is growing. An overhaul of structure by employing qualified consultants would provide a template that can be incorporated into a strategic plan. There will be a cost at the outset but efficiency savings identified through the process should go some way to covering that outlay. The Sunderland structure is a minimum requirement for a modern day football operation. Not having a football person on the Board impacts on the Clubs financial standing. Decision making by committee only adds to the mounting off field problems. Until there is a desire to implement modernisation within the confines of strategic planning we are stuck in a rut and the endless cycle of knee jerk reaction managerial appointments will continue.

 

[Sean Thornton]

That was how it was announced at the time. I am sure of that. One thing to note was that United used a different accounting date to some clubs.

Perhaps it was the largest profit at the time it was announced.

As you say, that money did not cover what we spent, highlighting how overmatched we were.

Due to Covid the Club extended the accounting period to thirteen months, ie 31/7/2020.

First profit since 2008.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Its a misconception to believe it will cost shed loads to make a business more efficient. Having been involved in a number of acquisitions and mergers the converse is true. Any new owner worth their salt would have employed experts to carry out due diligence. This in turn should have led to an efficiency and improvement plan to move the business forward. That in turn should have influenced the organisation structure that was a requirement of the EFL O and D process.

The reality is if you don't employ the necessary expertise and just adopt carte blanche what went before you will be left with a loss making buggers muddle. Unfortunately from the outside looking in it seems our current owners opted for the latter as events to date in their current tenure would indicate.

PA in the court case stated he was looking to bring in Deloittes consultants to carry out a root and branch review of the whole of SUFC's structure and working practices. It seems there was never a desire for it so the status quo remained. I was hopeful new owners would lead to an overhaul of an inefficient off field operation. It hasn't happened to date and this change averse approach means we are destined to aimlessly plod along.

A DOF on its own will not provide an instant magic solution but the case for one is growing. An overhaul of structure by employing qualified consultants would provide a template that can be incorporated into a strategic plan. There will be a cost at the outset but efficiency savings identified through the process should go some way to covering that outlay. The Sunderland structure is a minimum requirement for a modern day football operation. Not having a football person on the Board impacts on the Clubs financial standing. Decision making by committee only adds to the mounting off field problems. Until there is a desire to implement modernisation within the confines of strategic planning we are stuck in a rut and the endless cycle of knee jerk reaction managerial appointments will continue.

So, the answer isn’t as simple as making Tufty DoF?

 

[CornwallBlade]

So you're saying the club should have done a much better job selecting they types of players that 'fit' the clubs philosophy

The point I’m making is that, if a professional football player does not possess the capability and attitude to spend 90 minutes playing at a high level of intensity. They shouldn’t be on the pitch. Beyond that fundamental requirement lies skill and intelligence - that determines the level they play at.

 

[Carlton Blade]

The point I’m making is that, if a professional football player does not possess the capability and attitude to spend 90 minutes playing at a high level of intensity. They shouldn’t be on the pitch. Beyond that fundamental requirement lies skill and intelligence - that determines the level they play at.

So the club should invest more time and resource in making sure they do the vest possible job in finding the type of players they need

 

[SB_90]

Regardless of where we end up this season, we need to be employing a long-term strategy for the club. We cannot carry on in this manner - making a half-arsed effort to set ourselves up for the future, only to bail on it immediately and go back to what we did before. It might take a bit of suffering to get there, but we're already suffering as it is. At least if we commit to change, the pain might become worth it.

great point ive said a few times, it annoys me that only managers who support the club or have strong links to club can be successful. ie wilder or hecky who was wilder under a different name

that excluding the incumbent, we have had 10 permanent managers since Warnock left. theyve lasted on average 51 games which is effectively a season. with a win rate of 40.7%. then looking at the managers in between Bassett & Warnock, was even worse, lasted on average 44 games & a win rate of 40.2%

although danny wilson has the highest win rate of any permanent sheff utd manager

 

[finlaytheblade]

Its a misconception to believe it will cost shed loads to make a business more efficient. Having been involved in a number of acquisitions and mergers the converse is true. Any new owner worth their salt would have employed experts to carry out due diligence. This in turn should have led to an efficiency and improvement plan to move the business forward. That in turn should have influenced the organisation structure that was a requirement of the EFL O and D process.

The reality is if you don't employ the necessary expertise and just adopt carte blanche what went before you will be left with a loss making buggers muddle. Unfortunately from the outside looking in it seems our current owners opted for the latter as events to date in their current tenure would indicate.

PA in the court case stated he was looking to bring in Deloittes consultants to carry out a root and branch review of the whole of SUFC's structure and working practices. It seems there was never a desire for it so the status quo remained. I was hopeful new owners would lead to an overhaul of an inefficient off field operation. It hasn't happened to date and this change averse approach means we are destined to aimlessly plod along.

A DOF on its own will not provide an instant magic solution but the case for one is growing. An overhaul of structure by employing qualified consultants would provide a template that can be incorporated into a strategic plan. There will be a cost at the outset but efficiency savings identified through the process should go some way to covering that outlay. The Sunderland structure is a minimum requirement for a modern day football operation. Not having a football person on the Board impacts on the Clubs financial standing. Decision making by committee only adds to the mounting off field problems. Until there is a desire to implement modernisation within the confines of strategic planning we are stuck in a rut and the endless cycle of knee jerk reaction managerial appointments will continue.

As a retired postman with no special knowledge of running a business or a Football club ! I .maybe nieve in my thinking but surely having specialist's running
a football club should be straightforward.
DOF football matters other areas run by Persons who specialise in what they do brought together by the chief executive answerable to the directors or owners.
The owners set out the blue print with
Chief executive spelling out to the department heads what the plan is !
Impossible? or is ?

 

[reedy63]

The club should have Made The legendary Tony Currie Director of Football when He retired from playing. Years ago, bringing in experts who can manage certain aspects. Everything in the club finances, etc, leave the manager to manage the playing side of things. Recommend new players. We already have one of the best academies in the country, that have produced players who have played for England,Jags and Walker and Maguire.Sold quite a few players to Premier League clubs, etc. The New owners should learn about the History of our Great Club, etc. The Director of Football should be an ex-player, in my opinion.

 

[dsr-burnley]

If the man in charge of playing affairs is called a manager, he is sacked when things go badly.

If the man in charge is called a director of football, then he will also be sacked if things go badly. Or worse, he will have a job for life regardless of whether things go badly.

One of the ways football is going wrong is the idea that managers have their own style of play and footballers have to fit it. Instead of the 11 players on the field having to fit the way the manager plays, the manager's job ought to be to fit the style to match the eleven players on the field.

 

[KMC-1889]

If the man in charge of playing affairs is called a manager, he is sacked when things go badly.

If the man in charge is called a director of football, then he will also be sacked if things go badly. Or worse, he will have a job for life regardless of whether things go badly.

One of the ways football is going wrong is the idea that managers have their own style of play and footballers have to fit it. Instead of the 11 players on the field having to fit the way the manager plays, the manager's job ought to be to fit the style to match the eleven players on the field.

You’re half right, the point of a technical/sporting board independent of the manager is to bring in the right players of sufficient quality that give the manager the best chance of delivering the owners objectives.

As you rightly point out, letting a manager build a squad only works for that manager, or similar style if they are available. We see it with wilder when he becomes fixated on certain players to the broader detriment of the team, someone above him should be able to cut that out.

 

[Loco Blade]

I wouldn’t mind the Out Run Out Fight Out Play approach if it was a deliberate strategy, but as you right point out over the last 20 years we veered rapidly from style to style with varying degrees of success.

For whatever reason, as a club and a fanbase we’re completely incapable of looking beyond the current season, making any talk of future planning a complete waste of effort.

This season has finished me off, I’ll go and support the team out of habit. £400m has come into the club after three premier league seasons and we have absolutely nowt to show for it and no vision for the future. We’ll plod along between League One & Championship until the next Bassett/Warnock/Wilder falls into our lap and we get a season or two of joy.

It’s the realisation that we won’t be a Brentford, or Fulham, or even a Forest. We’re going to be Bolton, or Stoke, or Blackburn.

Totally understand the thinking . Problem is the Americans in my opinion probably miscalculated the senior management’s ( Bettis ) to have the vision of a transformative approach , step 1 , step 2 etc. just the same as in business you need an overall long term plan and implement it phased over a sensible period . You can’t make washing machines Friday and hot dogs Monday. Since “ hands on - low ambition McCabe left and then absent landlord Prince / remote US ownership took over shouldn’t our chief exec be driving the vision. Keeping progressive continuity??
Not seen any evidence and in my book that’s the real issue here .

 

[raul]

As a retired postman with no special knowledge of running a business or a Football club ! I .maybe nieve in my thinking but surely having specialist's running
a football club should be straightforward.
DOF football matters other areas run by Persons who specialise in what they do brought together by the chief executive answerable to the directors or owners.
The owners set out the blue print with
Chief executive spelling out to the department heads what the plan is !
Impossible? or is ?

How are your ankles?

 

[GymClassHero]

I know the current Manager and him don’t necessarily get on but buying into what has been a success for us in the past why not have Warnock as a DoF?

Oh no, Bladey Bladey, Bladey I hear! But that’s part of the issue as well isn’t it? Some seem to have developed this snobbery around our success under home grown managers. He’ll have a contact book like War and Peace.

Wilder was happy to chat with Bamford who he called a Muppet and Warnock signed Diouf who he called a sewer rat. So I’m sure differences could be put aside.

I’d rather double down and accept the reality. Rather than have some snobbish future view. What will aim to be? Some continental Tika Taka team? And how much money will that cost?

No, I’d rather wind back to 2019. We play 3-5-2 throughout the club. We develop attacking centre backs we have a number 10 and we play two strikers. That was our most recent success. Nobody else has that blueprint and if we’d kept the standard of player up I.e. prioritised O’Connell replacement, then we wouldn’t be fending off the “being found out” accusation.

Warnock for all his faults did oversee the construction of the Academy. So why not prioritise this again to get to Cat A? Then get him to work with the manager on improving the scouting.

So that would be my blueprint.

1. A formation and a brand that has already given success by our own standards and is synonymous with us.
2. Further enhancements to an already successful Academy.
3. Focus on improving the scouting infrastructure complimented by AI, not replaced by it.
4. Retain the image of out run, out fight, out play that resonates with the city and its people.

Sometimes you have to acknowledge where are your strengths and not go searching for the next fad.

I struggle to wrap my head around Wilder not signing a JOC replacement. And then he repeats the same trick last season with Souttar.

Baffling.

With regards to modernisation of the club, I think yes a DoF would be a good move, but it certainly won't solve everything. The whole club needs an injection of experienced heads; scouts, corporate, coaching - clearly the fitness staff too. I feel like everything just needs a complete overhaul, I have a recurring imagine in my head of the transfer and scouting department just being a small portacabin at the bottom of the training pitch, it's that amateur at times

 

[finlaytheblade]

How are your ankles?

Ankles are fine but my right knee is knackered, thumbs painful with arthritis apart from that no issues.Every job has its downside.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Ankles are fine but my right knee is knackered, thumbs painful with arthritis apart from that no issues.Every job has its downside.

The thumbs will be down to opening all those kiddies birthday cards………

 

[CornwallBlade]

I thought I had arrived in a parallel universe here. A good read of well argued points and counter points, also a lot of 'pashun'. But I'm left thinking I am non the wiser really. Surely the issues have all come back to money, who has the money, how they choose to spend their money, what advice they have sought in spending their money. Unfortunately for those of us who are poor addicted supporters and had no choice in becoming a Blade for life (I blame my Dad) we don't appear to have the money and so in reality have little influence on the money department. Yes we can throw our shoes in the car park, we can express our views on forums or in song at games and this might just help influence the money men a little as it may impact on their potential returns.

You’re right. As Rodley said earlier in the thread, there was a moment when, having finished 9th we reached, to use a military term, culminating point. At that point it is shit or bust and we failed to grasp what was there for the taking.
Every other PL club who’ve come up through the divisions and remained there has done it. Obviously, you’re betting everything on it but the idea that any Championship side can gain promotion and stay up without doing so is unrealistic

 

[bladesmanluke]

We are broken. Mark my words if we don't go down this season we will do next after £45m of cuts

 

[CornwallBlade]

So the club should invest more time and resource in making sure they do the vest possible job in finding the type of players they need

Well yes, but my point about fitness and attitude still stands. Watching Liverpool vs Chelsea last Saturday, quite apart from skill levels, the level of intensity from every player on both sides, in the last 15 minutes was incredible.

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

You’re right. As Rodley said earlier in the thread, there was a moment when, having finished 9th we reached, to use a military term, culminating point. At that point it is shit or bust and we failed to grasp what was there for the taking.
Every other PL club who’ve come up through the divisions and remained there has done it. Obviously, you’re betting everything on it but the idea that any Championship side can gain promotion and stay up without doing so is unrealistic

I'll take slight issue with that as after finishing 9th we spent £20m on a young GK £23m on a young striker, having spent £20mJanuary on a young CM.

As it turns out, all 3 never really offered much ROI and with hindsight we'd have been better off spending the money on a thorough infrastructure and training facilities - but i don't think we can be too critical of not backing up the 9th place finish with not speculating...

 

[IdLiketoRogerMoore]

2. If it does end up going that way are you completely sure that a franchise club is what you want?
Few of them win anything and they are pretty much identikit, so what’s the prize, the end goal? To be a sustainable team in the middle of the Prem?

What's the alternative? Bolton, Wigan, Stoke, Norwich, Reading?

Maybe Middlesbrough or West Brom?

When you put it in the context of what the alternative is to being a faceless PL mid level franchise - yes I choose 8pm Sunday kick offs over away trips to Fleetwood or Swindon...

 

[Sean Thornton]

I'll take slight issue with that as after finishing 9th we spent £20m on a young GK £23m on a young striker, having spent £20mJanuary on a young CM.

As it turns out, all 3 never really offered much ROI and with hindsight we'd have been better off spending the money on a thorough infrastructure and training facilities - but i don't think we can be too critical of not backing up the 9th place finish with not speculating...

We spent £46m that year.

 

[nopigfansintown]

Some strange things have gone on. The McCabe era was one where all of his delegating post Dooley failed. The Dooley period until the appointment of Terry Robinson was actually McCabe's most hands on period at the club. The cost of the damage done by Robson, Kidd and Robinson is huge. I think it also put the frighteners on McCabe a bit as trusting highly paid football "experts" proved to be a colossal mistake. McCabe cited delegating and being too remote as a reason for failure before he got closely involved again during the sacking of Adkins. He attended the fan forums that year (May 2016) and obviously featured heavily in the Wilder appointment at a time when the club was at a really low ebb. Dooley was never replaced by anybody competent imo, and football decisions were made by Robinson, Birch, Winter, Brannigan (et al) or the first team football management to the detriment of the club. The only antidote to this I can remember was some consulting with Bassett re managerial appointments. A particularly desperate period was Clough's seconds summer transfer window when administrative staff said he recruited players contrary to the club's wishes. He was essentially running the club counter to the club's values and exploiting a power vacuum. This messed up Clough's second season and the Adkins season as the money was all tied up on ageing dross in the last year of their deals. Adkins subsequent work suggests it wouldn't have worked anyway which is somewhat of a relief. It'd be harder to take if he was successful elsewhere

Fast forward to CW. At this point we have a technical board made up of the KM and PA factions, with the football expertise coming from CW and his team. The strange thing here, imo, is that we have non football staff influencing football decisions. Transfers are voted on with non football people getting a vote. There is no football expertise separate from CW and his team bar a fairly brief interregnum when Van Winkel is on the board. Maybe this was a mistake in the Prem if they didn't have the gravitas/insight to offer enough pushback on CW and his team's targets. I couldn't say without knowing who recommended which player (Bogle aside) and how the votes went. PA cited Wilder's signings as an issue when he left but gave no explanation for the transfer committees failure to influence it in a different direction. There was no personal or structural accountability. No alternative structure was ever put in place post Wilder which suggests they were happy with it (despite much speculation stating or implying Wilder was a bulwark against change).. United World existed as part of the footballing oversight, but we never really got a decent insight into the influence they had at United. Bettis had some overarching influence on the long term strategic goals of the club (including on the football side) but it's probably a stretch to call him a DOF or a quasi DOF. At the back end of CW tenure a new Shirecliffe building is recommended but never implemented.

During Wilder's first period he drives academy development, the conjoining of both academy and first team into the same building, the purported new building at the training ground, new pitches (also Hecky). When appointed there is a big turnover of academy staff - the lack of recent successes and need for changeis cited as an issue in early Wilder interviews. We play the same formation throughout the club (3-5-2). Wilder is very hands on and the success is there

When Wilder left we see evidence of joined up thinking with the caretaker appointment of Hecky ( PA later cited it was an existing plan) to continue the club's philosophy. The club bottled the full time appointment of Hecky, strangely appointing Slav, a manager with a radically different footballing style whose promotion successes came at both big spending Fulham and Watford (rather than at a club like United who were going through a period of cost cutting). His incompatibility should've been seen a mile away. The club subsequently reverted back to it's philosophy when Slav was sacked. Hecky is appointed first team manager, achieving radically improved results followed by automatic promotion and an FA Cup Semi Final. In the process there is an injury crisis (evidence of no long term fitness plan post Prestridge).A DOF or strong football presence should've vetoed the Slav appointed and appointed Hecky or someone adjacent to the philosophy (Wilder's recommendation Steve Cooper?).

Hecky is sacked and Wilder is reappointed by PA. His first summer happens amidst a takeover. Strong rumours abound that the new owners have a football guy working in the background (Des Taylor) with CW working from two transfer lists of players dependent on the success of takeover. Long term projects on the Fan zone is completed. Land is secured for a future academy project. Permanent summer signings are almost all an unqualified success and the club makes an unlikely automatic promotion attempt.

Wilder sacked and an unheralded coach with a radically different expansive, high pressure, high line football philosophy is appointed. A style that has no history of success in the Championship with clear questions re the suitability of the playing squad and the suitability of the style to the league. This revolution happens despite a relatively successful finish last year, despite the lack of players pre January which could be ameliorated this summer, and the despite the squad being mid build. Selles' revolutionary approach is subsequently partially undermined by a tardy and illogical recruitment. The players that are incoming don't fit the existing squad/style nor Selles' ultra high line, high pressing style. There's no evidence that competent football people drove the sacking of Wilder, the appointment of Selles or the summer transfers. Nobody knows who drove what in the summer.

A mixed bag.