Our club is inherently broken, but current on-pitch issues are distracting from the bigger picture.

[JD88]

Absolutely agree there should be a bigger picture but I always feel there is too much clamor to get away from the Bladey blade thing. It shouldn't be a clear break away from passion and effort, players putting a shift in etc that underpins who and what we are, a working class football club. For example, and a big reason why the managers listed in the OP failed is they never bought into that. When Klopp went into Liverpool, a working class club ( on a completely different level) he bought into that and then built on it, Guardiola did exactly the same at Manchester City, and the current owners of each club did it as well, but also understood the roots of them cities and that has never left them. Liverpool just lost 3 on the spin, never once has anyone questioned the work rate, effort and commitment. Still the basis of everything at any level. We are a working class club in a working class city but that shouldn't stop ambition and aiming to get better and improve.

When our owners come on all the foundations on and off the pitch where there, it just need building on ( Director of football being one) and instead they did the complete opposite and took a sledgehammer to it. It needs proper thinking, a proper culture building and it needs to learn the lessons of the utter shambles that has gone on since the play off final. If that happens then we will move forward again and maybe one day, and it may be a good while away, we will stop the underachieving and build something that in time can stop in the league and win something instead of the brief flirtations in the prem and the odd semi final here and there. It is difficult, but not impossible.

 

[JD88]

It boils down to me, to an infrastructure thing and investing properly in getting people who can make whatever it is they want, to work.

Based on just handing the job to Selles, no due diligence or interview process seemed to exist and if that's the case with the bloke meant to be in charge of the team, heaven knows what else goes on. Fair enough if we handed the job to Mourinho but not to a bloke with a chequered at best track record of results.

Having people who have an understanding of football at the top would be a start but we can't just inject that into the brains of the owners so from that side, what'll be will be. It goes back to having someone as a competent day to day figurehead to run the show on their behalf, especially when it comes to on-field matters, not just Bettis, CWAK, Prestridge, the kit man, groundsman and the tea lady.

We have an identity and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's how we choose to embody that and exploit it to its best. If we want to have a team of up and at em shithouses, then recruit the best ones available using the best resources to find them. Tony Pulis' Stoke team are the embodiment to me of working out who you've got already, what they're good at and building on it.

Taking Brentford and Brighton as key examples, I'd be pretty certain that they have extensive scouting networks around the world and some of the best data analysts and sports scientists money can buy. If we want to be where they are, we'd have to pay money for it and perhaps not expect any return from it immediately.

Every season, Brentford seem to lose their main men, only to continue to unearth more and more gems to keep them going, make a huge profit then they go and get the next one.

Looking not too far back into the past, these clubs were on the bones of their arses, now look where they are. We've had some decent foreign players in the recent past and the Wilder team we know and love from his first stint were mostly signed from the lower leagues. loanees or were free agents. Its how you blend it all together rather than just having one approach and relying solely on it.

At the end of the day, as much as we might try, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

I replied to the thread before I saw this, put much better than I did !!!

 

[Danetheblade]

It’s so simple then.
A DOF is the answer.
It’s staring us all in the face.
Wilder is over worked and can’t manage the workload.
A DOF will solve all those problems at a stroke? Really?

Brighton, Bournemouth, Brentford. Can anyone point to a single DOF who managed each of those through the process?

Forest and Sunderland.
Who’s the DOF?
They both won promotion via the play offs.
They both invested hugely when they got there.
Forest got there with a DoF did they? It wasn’t a manager led revival from a really poor start to the season? No, cos that can’t work. It must have been a DOF, right?

The common denominator is a massive wedge. It’s as simple as that.

Brighton - Jason Ayto, Mike Cave
Bournemouth - Tiago Pinto
Brentford - Phil Giles
Nottingham Forest - Ed Henderson (appointed 2021) also Edu.
Sunderland - Florent Ghisolfi

That's all the teams you've mentioned. All occupy a DOF/Sporting Director role.

A DOF is the answer. Modernises the club and takes decisions outside the first team playing staff away from someone who shouldn't really have any say in it. But hey.. Let's just continue on this fag packet level of running the club.

 

[SwissBlade]

The problem being, as the demands on Wilder and everyone grew as the team moved up the pyramid, the club did nothing to alleviate that burden and allow the manager to focus on 1st team performance

Yeah I think thats fair, but the drop off was so fast in that COVID season that they perhaps didn't have time to do anything other than react to a changing situation. Thats not making any excuses, just the reality of how things were

 

[Carlton Blade]

Yeah I think thats fair, but the drop off was so fast in that COVID season that they perhaps didn't have time to do anything other than react to a changing situation. Thats not making any excuses, just the reality of how things were

The person 'in charge' of the direction of the club needs to have almost as much attention on the medium and long term as the present. You can't expect a manager who's employment is tied to 1st team results to do that. Too many conflicting priorities.

The time to build was when things were good. But everyone at the club was bought into Wilder exceptionalism lasting forever. But for as well as he did, we were then competing with clubs who had more money, better structure and long term planning (bottom of PL/Top of Championshi). It's a shame. The Covid season was pretty much unavoidable. The messes that came afterwards were not.

 

[SwissBlade]

Brighton - Jason Ayto, Mike Cave
Bournemouth - Tiago Pinto
Brentford - Phil Giles
Nottingham Forest - Ed Henderson (appointed 2021) also Edu.
Sunderland - Florent Ghisolfi

That's all the teams you've mentioned. All occupy a DOF/Sporting Director role.

A DOF is the answer. Modernises the club and takes decisions outside the first team playing staff away from someone who shouldn't really have any say in it. But hey.. Let's just continue on this fag packet level of running the club.

I don't think we're run on a fag packet, but that also doesn't necessarily mean that we need a DoF. I'm not particularly opposed to a DoF to be honest, I think Wilder needs more support for the football side.

I think we're quite modern in many ways, but I think whether we're old fashioned or modern, that can be very subjective, but we've taken steps to keep up over the last 10 years and its been successful on the whole. We do need to have people in the club that know the club, we also have to bring fresh ideas, something that Wilder and his team aren't averse to either.

But the owners, for a year at the wheel, lets face it, have done fuck all to improve things. In fact, their decisions have set the club back and i worry that they know what they're doing to make the right decisions to take the club forward.

We do need to improve things across the business without changing the ethos in the club and the identity. We don't really need big flags and rail seating / standing if we're not having a whole club approach to the whole club... But there is a business that needs more than Bettis, Wilder and a few others.

 

[SwissBlade]

The person 'in charge' of the direction of the club needs to have almost as much attention on the medium and long term as the present. You can't expect a manager who's employment is tied to 1st team results to do that. Too many conflicting priorities.

Yeah thats also fair.

The time to build was when things were good. But everyone at the club was bought into Wilder exceptionalism lasting forever. But for as well as he did, we were then competing with clubs who had more money, better structure and long term planning (bottom of PL/Top of Championshi). It's a shame. The Covid season was pretty much unavoidable. The messes that came afterwards were not.

I think, for want of a better phrase, the success came to fast and by the time we were ready to react to it, the slide backwards started until we put Hecky in charge and we climbed back again...

 

[Danetheblade]

I don't think we're run on a fag packet, but that also doesn't necessarily mean that we need a DoF. I'm not particularly opposed to a DoF to be honest, I think Wilder needs more support for the football side.

I think we're quite modern in many ways, but I think whether we're old fashioned or modern, that can be very subjective, but we've taken steps to keep up over the last 10 years and its been successful on the whole. We do need to have people in the club that know the club, we also have to bring fresh ideas, something that Wilder and his team aren't averse to either.

But the owners, for a year at the wheel, lets face it, have done fuck all to improve things. In fact, their decisions have set the club back and i worry that they know what they're doing to make the right decisions to take the club forward.

We do need to improve things across the business without changing the ethos in the club and the identity. We don't really need big flags and rail seating / standing if we're not having a whole club approach to the whole club... But there is a business that needs more than Bettis, Wilder and a few others.

I think in terms of corporate etc, we do really well. But our downfall is first team related. We’re still reliant on a few people making suggestions and scouting players. Our training facility is an old working men’s club.

The new owners have set us back without a doubt. I’d just like to see us as a serious club.

 

[KMC-1889]

I think in terms of corporate etc, we do really well. But our downfall is first team related. We’re still reliant on a few people making suggestions and scouting players. Our training facility is an old working men’s club.

The new owners have set us back without a doubt. I’d just like to see us as a serious club.

Corporate/commercial side is absolutely appalling.

I used to deal with the club as one of the major sponsors and we could basically name our price.

 

[Danetheblade]

Corporate/commercial side is absolutely appalling.

I used to deal with the club as one of the major sponsors and we could basically name our price.

Oh really? I’ve had a few interactions and it seemed to be decent enough?

 

[KMC-1889]

Oh really? I’ve had a few interactions and it seemed to be decent enough?

Yeah we threaten to pull out one year and they knocked a load of money off and gave us Kop sponsorship when SSB went under.

 

[SwissBlade]

I think in terms of corporate etc, we do really well. But our downfall is first team related. We’re still reliant on a few people making suggestions and scouting players. Our training facility is an old working men’s club.

The new owners have set us back without a doubt. I’d just like to see us as a serious club.

I think the opposite, the first team keeps the rest of the business alive....

 

[Carlton Blade]

Yeah thats also fair.

I think, for want of a better phrase, the success came to fast and by the time we were ready to react to it, the slide backwards started until we put Hecky in charge and we climbed back again...

Maybe. But that's where you hope the owners of your club have enough business and common sense to understand what's required. Something multiple United owners have failed with.

I think the term 'DoF' is off putting tbh. We just need more folks who know their stuff

 

[Danetheblade]

I think the opposite, the first team keeps the rest of the business alive....

I agree with you there Swiss. What I’m saying is the first team set up is amateur. I’d compare the staff (in terms of roles and positions) as league one. Theres league one teams out there that have a larger staff base than us.

 

[KMC-1889]

Maybe. But that's where you hope the owners of your club have enough business and common sense to understand what's required. Something multiple United owners have failed with.

I think the term 'DoF' is off putting tbh. We just need more folks who know their stuff

Yeah it’s not just a single role is it, you need a full ‘technical’ team so the board can get on with running the club.

 

[SwissBlade]

Maybe. But that's where you hope the owners of your club have enough business and common sense to understand what's required. Something multiple United owners have failed with.

I think the term 'DoF' is off putting tbh. We just need more folks who know their stuff

This is the thing that baffles me. We apparently have a whole bunch of experienced business heads in the consortium that were studying the club for many months before even making an offer, let alone taking ownership. And there has been very little progress in developing things beyond sacking the manager, appointing another, sacking him and then reappointing the original... Nothing has happened off the field.

I agree with you there Swiss. What I’m saying is the first team set up is amateur. I’d compare the staff (in terms of roles and positions) as league one. Theres league one teams out there that have a larger staff base than us.

Ok, can't disagree with that but we are run extremely lean as a club. I think that is almost healthy for where we are, but it does have to grow much more, but naturally.

 

[Danetheblade]

Ok, can't disagree with that but we are run extremely lean as a club. I think that is almost healthy for where we are, but it does have to grow much more, but naturally.

It’s not healthy when most teams within this league also operate at a higher staff level than we do. I’d be amazed if we didn’t run at the lowest staff level (outside Wednesday and the recently promoted teams) we’re a team who’ve been up in the premier league relatively recently.

When’s the time for us to grow naturally? Because we’ve been up in the premier league, surely that’s the right time to invest into the staffing levels? We’re managed by someone who wants most of the control (he’s given answers in interviews that he’d “be open to a DOF model” but let’s be real.. he wouldn’t be.

 

[David Wheatley]

Hindsight is wonderful….. but if we were doing it all again and had just been promoted to the Premier League (2019/20)….. some money should have been set aside then to build the new training ground & Cat 1 academy. Of course we all got excited about wanting to invest to try & establish ourselves in the Premier League - but the Prince did not have deep enough pockets to do that & at that time he was not strong enough to say no to Wilder re…. Big transfers.

As I say - hindsight is easy - but history will show we blew the chance to lay down that really game changing infrastructure. Now - apart from some stadium upgrades our legacy from that £400 million + is very poor.

I don't think we're run on a fag packet, but that also doesn't necessarily mean that we need a DoF. I'm not particularly opposed to a DoF to be honest, I think Wilder needs more support for the football side.

I think we're quite modern in many ways, but I think whether we're old fashioned or modern, that can be very subjective, but we've taken steps to keep up over the last 10 years and its been successful on the whole. We do need to have people in the club that know the club, we also have to bring fresh ideas, something that Wilder and his team aren't averse to either.

But the owners, for a year at the wheel, lets face it, have done fuck all to improve things. In fact, their decisions have set the club back and i worry that they know what they're doing to make the right decisions to take the club forward.

We do need to improve things across the business without changing the ethos in the club and the identity. We don't really need big flags and rail seating / standing if we're not having a whole club approach to the whole club... But there is a business that needs more than Bettis, Wilder and a few others.

Bettis is clueless

 

[Champagneblade]

It boils down to me, to an infrastructure thing and investing properly in getting people who can make whatever it is they want, to work.

Based on just handing the job to Selles, no due diligence or interview process seemed to exist and if that's the case with the bloke meant to be in charge of the team, heaven knows what else goes on. Fair enough if we handed the job to Mourinho but not to a bloke with a chequered at best track record of results.

Having people who have an understanding of football at the top would be a start but we can't just inject that into the brains of the owners so from that side, what'll be will be. It goes back to having someone as a competent day to day figurehead to run the show on their behalf, especially when it comes to on-field matters, not just Bettis, CWAK, Prestridge, the kit man, groundsman and the tea lady.

We have an identity and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's how we choose to embody that and exploit it to its best. If we want to have a team of up and at em shithouses, then recruit the best ones available using the best resources to find them. Tony Pulis' Stoke team are the embodiment to me of working out who you've got already, what they're good at and building on it.

Taking Brentford and Brighton as key examples, I'd be pretty certain that they have extensive scouting networks around the world and some of the best data analysts and sports scientists money can buy. If we want to be where they are, we'd have to pay money for it and perhaps not expect any return from it immediately.

Every season, Brentford seem to lose their main men, only to continue to unearth more and more gems to keep them going, make a huge profit then they go and get the next one.

Looking not too far back into the past, these clubs were on the bones of their arses, now look where they are. We've had some decent foreign players in the recent past and the Wilder team we know and love from his first stint were mostly signed from the lower leagues. loanees or were free agents. Its how you blend it all together rather than just having one approach and relying solely on it.

At the end of the day, as much as we might try, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

We don’t know what goes on behind closed doors but I would have expected Bettis to be able to have made a sufficiently compelling case for keeping a current manager with a history of promotions in lieu of one with none and whom a team, that almost got relegated, didn’t wish to keep.

He is the one who should understand the ins and outs of football and the history of what makes good in the Championship. With exceptions, it’s continuity and know how. Sellés represented neither. Whether you like him or not, Wilder represented both.

 

[Champagneblade]

It’s not healthy when most teams within this league also operate at a higher staff level than we do. I’d be amazed if we didn’t run at the lowest staff level (outside Wednesday and the recently promoted teams) we’re a team who’ve been up in the premier league relatively recently.

When’s the time for us to grow naturally? Because we’ve been up in the premier league, surely that’s the right time to invest into the staffing levels? We’re managed by someone who wants most of the control (he’s given answers in interviews that he’d “be open to a DOF model” but let’s be real.. he wouldn’t be.

How do you know he wants most of the control?

He’s never said that. There’s never been an infrastructure in place to help him out to even find out.

Did Wilder stand on your prize geraniums? I usually always play the post and not the poster but you don’t ever miss a chance to get a rabbit punch in on poor old Wilder!

 

[Danetheblade]

How do you know he wants most of the control?

He’s never said that. There’s never been an infrastructure in place to help him out to even find out.

Did Wilder stand on your prize geraniums? I usually always play the post and not the poster but you don’t ever miss a chance to get a rabbit punch in on poor old Wilder!

https://archive.ph/q2uwN

This were when he left in 2021 “grew frustrated with us wanting to go down a director of football model”.

He didn’t. My Geraniums are dying in the cold weather.

 

[Lower Drop Blade]

And where does the new training ground and cat 1 status for academy fall into this chat? We can talk about culture changes and DOF till the cows come home if we aren't pushing this project then tells you everything about how this set of owners see the future.....short term

 

[Kenilworth]

Brighton - Jason Ayto, Mike Cave
Bournemouth - Tiago Pinto
Brentford - Phil Giles
Nottingham Forest - Ed Henderson (appointed 2021) also Edu.
Sunderland - Florent Ghisolfi

That's all the teams you've mentioned. All occupy a DOF/Sporting Director role.

A DOF is the answer. Modernises the club and takes decisions outside the first team playing staff away from someone who shouldn't really have any say in it. But hey.. Let's just continue on this fag packet level of running the club.

It’s not the answer, with one man in isolation as so many bang on about.
Have you seen Roygbiv info on the Sunderland structure?
It’s so much more than one man as a DoF and all those clubs have had a massive injection of cash.

My main point is that you cannot just look at Wilder and his core team and expect a DOF to be the utopian, panacea to change the world in an instant. It’s cuckoo.

Money is king and allus will be.

Good research, though

 

[Kenilworth]

I think his point was that 400 million plus due to our 3 seasons in the top flight wasn't really used to lay any foundations ( resources) for change and development

Really?
Paid off a load of debt
Loads went on wages
Club now owns all the land around the ground.
Purchased Dore site.
Funded some transfers
Paid for policing and match day security.
Upgraded the ground
Installed media centre
Funded the academy.

£400m is peanuts in the world of top flight football these days. It wouldn’t wipe the hairy area of most Prem clubs.

 

[Danetheblade]

It’s not the answer, with one man in isolation as so many bang on about.
Have you seen Roygbiv info on the Sunderland structure?
It’s so much more than one man as a DoF and all those clubs have had a massive injection of cash.

My main point is that you cannot just look at Wilder and his core team and expect a DOF to be the utopian, panacea to change the world in an instant. It’s cuckoo.

Money is king and allus will be.

Good research, though

Million percent agree there. However you’d typically employ a DOF to then recruit the remainder of staff such as Sunderland.

I dont think it’d change things in a matter of weeks, but it’d go a long way if we were able to set a plan, follow a plan and stick ourselves on some form of a vision.

 

[Kenilworth]

Hindsight is wonderful….. but if we were doing it all again and had just been promoted to the Premier League (2019/20)….. some money should have been set aside then to build the new training ground & Cat 1 academy. Of course we all got excited about wanting to invest to try & establish ourselves in the Premier League - but the Prince did not have deep enough pockets to do that & at that time he was not strong enough to say no to Wilder re…. Big transfers.

As I say - hindsight is easy - but history will show we blew the chance to lay down that really game changing infrastructure. Now - apart from some stadium upgrades our legacy from that £400 million + is very poor.

I think it was one or the other and still not enough wedge to do either - not both.

 

[Kenilworth]

It’s a bit strong to suggest we’re ’broken’. We are what we are!

I was hoping that there was a possibility that we would be able to elevate ourselves to compete at a higher level. It seems though that we can’t do this and therefore we’ll stick to what we know and leave other clubs to try and take the next step.

Broken is a euphemism for not minted.
But the DoF will magically sort that

 

[Kenilworth]

Million percent agree there. However you’d typically employ a DOF to then recruit the remainder of staff such as Sunderland.

I dont think it’d change things in a matter of weeks, but it’d go a long way if we were able to set a plan, follow a plan and stick ourselves on some form of a vision.

I don’t see the plan. Just adding a DoF is a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.

 

[Kenilworth]

I don't think we're run on a fag packet, but that also doesn't necessarily mean that we need a DoF. I'm not particularly opposed to a DoF to be honest, I think Wilder needs more support for the football side.

I think we're quite modern in many ways, but I think whether we're old fashioned or modern, that can be very subjective, but we've taken steps to keep up over the last 10 years and its been successful on the whole. We do need to have people in the club that know the club, we also have to bring fresh ideas, something that Wilder and his team aren't averse to either.

But the owners, for a year at the wheel, lets face it, have done fuck all to improve things. In fact, their decisions have set the club back and i worry that they know what they're doing to make the right decisions to take the club forward.

We do need to improve things across the business without changing the ethos in the club and the identity. We don't really need big flags and rail seating / standing if we're not having a whole club approach to the whole club... But there is a business that needs more than Bettis, Wilder and a few others.

I applaud the safe standing upgrade

 

[Balham]

I don’t see the plan. Just adding a DoF is a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.

It is if we stop there. What a DoF does though, and this is echoing what has been said to you a lot on this thread, is set the agenda and strategy for the club from top to bottom, identifying the gaps and filling them as appropriate.

If the alternatives are Chris Wilder trying to do everything or a DoF taking the reins for everything above the first team then I know what I’d prefer.