Neil Warnocks selective memory/talking out of his arse

[snootyfenooty]

Wrong again? Where was I first wrong?

How do you know about the deal McCabe and Warnock had together by the way?

It was well publicised at the time. But along with all the other good stuff Warnock did for the club, selective amnesia tends to kick in.

Anyway, I would have thought your photographic memory as an 8 year old would have no problem recalling this.

 

[Steve Mackan]

Well we've brought a few good younsters through under crap managers.

We were losing money under Warnock as well. I'm not blaming him for that but the idea that he improved the club's finances in some way save for the promotion season, is aclaim of Warnockesque proportions.

Okay, it was less a claim and more description of the trajectory but I know FA about the numbers, truth be told. You are abstracting a small point of my wider point that the Warnock Era ended better than it started.

He's still, to my mind, the only manager of the past twenty-five years to successfully develop players from 17/18 year olds, to established football league players. Even those that didn't make it have gone on to have good careers. (Not saying that was all down to him at all, but it happened under his watch.)

 

[Eric Cartman]

He looks a lot like Tony Soprano's mum.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Okay, it was less a claim and more description of the trajectory but I know FA about the numbers, truth be told. You are abstracting a small point of my wider point that the Warnock Era ended better than it started.

He's still, to my mind, the only manager of the past twenty-five years to successfully develop players from 17/18 year olds, to established football league players. Even those that didn't make it have gone on to have good careers. (Not saying that was all down to him at all, but it happened under his watch.)

You can't say stuff like that. "Everyone" knows that taking a dying club to the play-off finals, cup semis, Premiership, ground redevelopment, academy development, development of players like Jags and a sound financial footing had nothing to do with him.

Edit: PS and I forgot, doubling of attendances.

 

[Steve Mackan]

You can't say stuff like that. "Everyone" knows that taking a dying club to the play-off finals, cup semis, Premiership, ground redevelopment, academy development, development of players like Jags and a sound financial footing had nothing to do with him.

Haha.

In the same way as saying he had nothing to do with any of those things, it would be wrong to say he had everything to do with those things. The truth of it lies somewhere in between and I'd be lying if I said I hated him or didn't enjoy those years.

 

[Sean Thornton]

It was well publicised at the time. But along with all the other good stuff Warnock did for the club, selective amnesia tends to kick in.

Anyway, I would have thought your photographic memory as an 8 year old would have no problem recalling this.

I personally have no recollection of that formula being suggested. That's not saying it didn't happen btw. The problem with Warnocks academy claim and that we had no youth policy is shown to be false by the 1999 accounts - to June before he was even here - that the club did in fact have a youth policy and the aim was academy status.

 

[Chali 2na]

It was well publicised at the time. But along with all the other good stuff Warnock did for the club, selective amnesia tends to kick in.

Anyway, I would have thought your photographic memory as an 8 year old would have no problem recalling this.

If it was well publicised, then I would've thought you could back up your claim?

I'm assuming, like the dig at me being young, your comment about selective amnesia is aimed at me too? I'm not sure why you can't discuss the point without snide remarks and insults.
I'm not married to my point of view in regards to Warnock's influence off the pitch, so if someone can provide a well reasoned argument, outlining Warnock's contribution, I'd be all ears.
I still maintain that Wilder's transfer record is better than Warnock's.

If you actually want to talk like adults, then I'm prepared to forget our arguments in the past and call it water under the bridge: Up to you now.

 

[Chali 2na]

Warnock's book?

I don't remeber that, but I haven't read the book in years tbf.

 

[JohnDenver]

Warnock gets loads of stick for the Villa game. But I think we’d have lost that no matter what. They were miles better than us, even if tactics and selection could have been better.

Whilst I’m very grateful for his achievements, my gripe is that our methods were too often those of a perpetual and limited underdog. In a game like Wigan where we needed to take the initiative we simply didn’t know how to.

At some point a team needs to evolve into something more sophisticated, but his teams don’t appear to do so.

 

[snootyfenooty]

I'm not married to my point of view in regards to Warnock's influence off the pitch, so if someone can provide a well reasoned argument, outlining Warnock's contribution, I'd be all ears.

See my post #64. As Steve says in the post below, it would be naive to suggest it was all his work but equally so to dismiss that he had nothing to do with it.

 

[snootyfenooty]

I'm assuming, like the dig at me being young, your comment about selective amnesia is aimed at me too? I'm not sure why you can't discuss the point without snide remarks and insults.

You're equally adept at dishing it out otherwise I would go easy on you. I was under the impression you wasn't averse to a bit of verbal jousting and as far as I can recall there's been a few digs (both ways) but no insults. But then again I do realise that "insult" has a different definition, especially when two people are two generations apart.

 

[Sean Thornton]

You can't say stuff like that. "Everyone" knows that taking a dying club to the play-off finals, cup semis, Premiership, ground redevelopment, academy development, development of players like Jags and a sound financial footing had nothing to do with him.

Edit: PS and I forgot, doubling of attendances.

Don't forget healing the sick and the lame, paving the way for Obama, ending the Cold War and solving the Irish question.

I know you like to exaggerate but the club wasn't "dying", ground redevelopment wasn't paid for by him or his efforts, but shareholders - unless he did all the brickwork and brought his tractor up for the club to use - John Warnock was much more involved in youth development and prepared the likes of Jags for first team football, amongst others. Sound financial footing? Losses every year until PL, share issues made the difference. And McCabes money.

 

[snootyfenooty]

Don't forget healing the sick and the lame, paving the way for Obama, ending the Cold War and solving the Irish question.

I know you like to exaggerate but the club wasn't "dying", ground redevelopment wasn't paid for by him or his efforts, but shareholders - unless he did all the brickwork and brought his tractor up for the club to use - John Warnock was much more involved in youth development and prepared the likes of Jags for first team football, amongst others. Sound financial footing? Losses every year until PL, share issues made the difference. And McCabes money.

You forgot to add.......then when he left, we spent 12 years outside the Prem (and counting) including 6 years dicking around in L1. Do you honestly believe that would have been the case had he stuck around? Serious question.

 

[bornablade]

He was given far more time than most modern managers are afforded. Patience from the board could have been wearing thin as from December 1999 until the 2003 season he achieved very little.

He could have been dismissed at the end of 2004 and 2005 seasons. His achievements in 2003 gave him more time and I would imagine Derek Dooley was a strong ally in the boardroom.

I think Chris Wilder will achieve more in 7+ seasons.

 

[Foody]

I will always love Warnock. I grew up watching a team that always seemed to be over achieving, a team that was hard to write off and a team that would graft. I've Warnock to thank for that.

I remember trips to: Wembley, Millennium stadium, Anfield, Highbury and Old Trafford. I watched us win promotion to the premier league! I've Warnock to thank for that.

When I was 16 I used to see him in my work most weeks. He couldn't have been any nicer; friendly, a good laugh and surprisingly humble.
Sure he chats some amount of shit. But as long as you don't take him too seriously, you can forgive it .

 

[Sean Thornton]

You forgot to add.......then when he left, we spent 12 years outside the Prem (and counting) including 6 years dicking around in L1. Do you honestly believe that would have been the case had he stuck around? Serious question.

Neither of us know for sure maybe he would've taken us back up but a lot of fans wanted him out as well. But he'd shot his bolt with McCabe who was never going to renew his contract anyway.

Not keeping Warnock has nothing to do with the last twelve years in reality though. The ridiculous decision to appoint Robson and let him waste millions is why we were struggling for so long.

 

[snootyfenooty]

He was given far more time than most modern managers are afforded. Patience from the board could have been wearing thin as from December 1999 until the 2003 season he achieved very little.

He could have been dismissed at the end of 2004 and 2005 seasons. His achievements in 2003 gave him more time and I would imagine Derek Dooley was a strong ally in the boardroom.

I think Chris Wilder will achieve more in 7+ seasons.

When he took over in December 1999 United were relegation fodder and playing in front of paltry crowds. The 2002 season (not 2003 as you state) was his 3rd full season and the triple assault season. I would challenge your assertion that in 3 full seasons he achieved very little. It then took him 6 full seasons not 7 to get to the Premiership.

 

[Sean Thornton]

When he took over in December 1999 United were relegation fodder and playing in front of paltry crowds. The 2002 season (not 2003 as you state) was his 3rd full season and the triple assault season. I would challenge your assertion that in 3 full seasons he achieved very little. It then took him 6 full seasons not 7 to get to the Premiership.

Triple assault was 2002/2003

 

[snootyfenooty]

Triple assault was 2002/2003

Read the full post, it's clear what I'm saying.

 

[itsinyerblood]

Neither of us know for sure maybe he would've taken us back up but a lot of fans wanted him out as well. But he'd shot his bolt with McCabe who was never going to renew his contract anyway.

Not keeping Warnock has nothing to do with the last twelve years in reality though. The ridiculous decision to appoint Robson and let him waste millions is why we were struggling for so long.

Amen to that!

 

[Chali 2na]

See my post #64. As Steve says in the post below, it would be naive to suggest it was all his work but equally so to dismiss that he had nothing to do with it.

I think this may be a combination of me understating Warnock's contributions off the pitch and you overstating them.

I still don't give him any real credit for the redevelopment of the ground and academy, but I accept your points about the increasing of attendences and development of players - he deserves plenty of credit there.

I don't quite agree with your assertion that he got us on a sound finacial footing, but I will concede that he did a better job at organising his finances than just about everyone of his successors, up until Wilder.

You're equally adept at dishing it out otherwise I would go easy on you. I was under the impression you wasn't averse to a bit of verbal jousting and as far as I can recall there's been a few digs (both ways) but no insults. But then again I do realise that "insult" has a different definition, especially when two people are two generations apart.

Whether we define it as a dig or an insult, I always make an effort to discuss the post and not get personal. If someone I'm talking to abandons their argument in favour of insulting me, then I'll return fire, like you said.

I'm coming to realise though, that unless your ego values winning arguments on a football forum, with people you've never met, then there's nothing to be gained.

It's not a matter of offence either (which I believe your last sentence alluded to). I just worry it makes me look like a tit.

 

[Sean Thornton]

Read the full post, it's clear what I'm saying.

It was his third full season. 20O2/2003. To me, 2002 would mean 2001/2002.

 

[JackSUFC]

I still think we'd have bounced straight back up if Warnock would've stayed another year but what followed was a decade of decline (bar Blackwell's PO final season).

 

[snootyfenooty]

Neither of us know for sure maybe he would've taken us back up but a lot of fans wanted him out as well. But he'd shot his bolt with McCabe who was never going to renew his contract anyway.

Not keeping Warnock has nothing to do with the last twelve years in reality though. The ridiculous decision to appoint Robson and let him waste millions is why we were struggling for so long.

You've put it in a nutshell in your last paragraph. Mr McCawber is the reason for our ills in the last 11 years, not Warnock as many on here would have us believe.

 

[Sean Thornton]

I think this may be a combination of me understating Warnock's contributions off the pitch and you overstating them.

I still don't give him any real credit for the redevelopment of the ground and academy, but I accept your points about the increasing of attendences and development of players - he deserves plenty of credit there.

I don't quite agree with your assertion that he got us on a sound finacial footing, but I will concede that he did a better job at organising his finances than just about everyone of his successors, up until Wilder.



Whether we define it as a dig or an insult, I always make an effort to discuss the post and not get personal. If someone I'm talking to abandons their argument in favour of insulting me, then I'll return fire, like you said.

I'm coming to realise though, that unless your ego values winning arguments on a football forum, with people you've never met, then there's nothing to be gained.

It's not a matter of offence either (which I believe your last sentence alluded to). I just worry it makes me look like a tit.

The season before he was appointed we averaged over 16000. The following season 13000+. Until the PL season of 30000+ the only doubling was 1999/2000, when he was appointed in December 1999. We never averaged more than 23000+ in the championship. The "doubling gates" is another Warnock fallacy.

 

[Sean Thornton]

You've put it in a nutshell in your last paragraph. Mr McCawber is the reason for our ills in the last 11 years, not Warnock as many on here would have us believe.

I've never blamed Warnock for anything but PL relegation. He went, rightly, so anything that happened after wasn't affected by him.

 

[I should coco]

Mr McCawber is the reason for our ills in the last 11 years,

He is also the reason why we still exist.

 

[Sean Thornton]

He is also the reason why we still exist.

That's done it........

 

[snootyfenooty]

Whether we define it as a dig or an insult, I always make an effort to discuss the post and not get personal. If someone I'm talking to abandons their argument in favour of insulting me, then I'll return fire, like you said.

I'm coming to realise though, that unless your ego values winning arguments on a football forum, with people you've never met, then there's nothing to be gained.

It's not a matter of offence either (which I believe your last sentence alluded to). I just worry it makes me look like a tit.

I don't recall answering one of your posts with a pure insult, if I've chucked a jibe in with it, it's been part of the process of continuing the dialogue. Anything directed back at me is water off a ducks back and if a bit of humour is built in to it then I also see the funny side of it too. I quite enjoy your posts by the way.

 

[snootyfenooty]

He is also the reason why we still exist.

He's spent the last 11 years bailing himself out of the mess he got himself into. Boo hoo. His latest escapade with the Prince is his latest in a long line of fuck ups.