Munneh

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Nothing makes me laugh more than whenever we discuss the clubs finances, some people come out the woodwork to claim the Prince is stealing from the club.

On a more focused note - I think signing a few cheap young players for the future, a couple of more expensive starting 11 replacements and ensuring the club is as close to debt free as it can be is the perfect way to spend the money we have, and then add a few loans to try and fight for survival
 

Tarqs said:
We have one of the most successful academies we've had in my lifetime, is not THE most.

Cat 1 status will cost us millions and millions to build and structure, it will cost us millions and millions per season in upkeep.

What guarantees will it give us, over what we already have?

I'll tell you, none!
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Yes that's how we'll move forward, by standing still.

What guarantee will buying another Brewster instead bring us?
 
Tarqs said:
We have one of the most successful academies we've had in my lifetime, is not THE most.

Cat 1 status will cost us millions and millions to build and structure, it will cost us millions and millions per season in upkeep.

What guarantees will it give us, over what we already have?

I'll tell you, none!
Click to expand...

Nothing ever gives guarantees. If the question is changed to do Cat One Academies produce more top players than other academies? the answer is obvious.

Nobody would argue that investing less in the transfer market will, on average, yield lesser quality players either. The positive correlation is obvious. This is a similar thing.

That said there's a trade off. United do have a successful system within a lower cost model. There was a dormant period pre DCL/Ramsdale and changes were made then. Quite a bit was made of it in the media and people were talking about it being a waste of money on here. It has been successful since then, certainly amongst Cat Two systems. A bit of an outlier.

I suppose the trade off is "will the extra money be more useful there than spent in the transfer market?" The productivity levels will determine that. Personally I'd also question how sustainable the current productivity levels are within a Cat Two system (see "outlier"). I don't think current success levels can be taken for granted within a Cat Two framework.

Ownership is a consideration. If United ever get ambitious owners then the SCMP/FFP advantages of the higher productivity levels likely under Cat one are obvious. The benefits to the accounts which allow a higher level of investment in the first team in the transfer market are there for all to see. It's one method of legalised financial doping within the game. Sell an academy player or progress one to the first team and you benefit enormously account wise, as they cost nothing initially.

Another factor is facilities. You can build the facilities without having the Cat one status. Then you can move within categorisations depending on the current financial situation of the club. The facilities aren't there and you are locked into a lower categorisation. It's possible to support big academy investment without necessarily supporting a move to Cat One. If a great site was on the market suitable for Cat One specs United should get it, imo, even if we remain Cat Two.
 
Isn't all of this discussion pretty much total fucking bollocks. The numbers quoted aren't much more than made up. The money doesn't actually exist. Outgoings which often are in fact real are greater than incomings which isn't. Bloviating on where to spend all this non-existent money seems a lot to me like playing Monopoly and thinking you're actually an internationally-feared Dark Money London Property Developer rampaging through Mayfair like Godzilla, when in fact you're sitting in your front room having chewy Tesco Value Custard Creams with your grandma.

Who was that accountant chap who explained all this pretty clearly a few weeks ago.
 
bladesmanluke said:
Yes that's how we'll move forward, by standing still.

What guarantee will buying another Brewster instead bring us?
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Can you tell me how the likes of Reading moved forward with a cat 1 academy?
 
nopigfansintown said:
Nothing ever gives guarantees. If the question is changed to do Cat One Academies produce more top players than other academies? the answer is obvious.

Nobody would argue that investing less in the transfer market will, on average, yield lesser quality players either. The positive correlation is obvious. This is a similar thing.

That said there's a trade off. United do have a successful system within a lower cost model. There was a dormant period pre DCL/Ramsdale and changes were made then. Quite a bit was made of it in the media and people were talking about it being a waste of money on here. It has been successful since then, certainly amongst Cat Two systems. A bit of an outlier.

I suppose the trade off is "will the extra money be more useful there than spent in the transfer market?" The productivity levels will determine that. Personally I'd also question how sustainable the current productivity levels are within a Cat Two system (see "outlier"). I don't think current success levels can be taken for granted within a Cat Two framework.

Ownership is a consideration. If United ever get ambitious owners then the SCMP/FFP advantages of the higher productivity levels likely under Cat one are obvious. The benefits to the accounts which allow a higher level of investment in the first team in the transfer market are there for all to see. It's one method of legalised financial doping within the game. Sell an academy player or progress one to the first team and you benefit enormously account wise, as they cost nothing initially.

Another factor is facilities. You can build the facilities without having the Cat one status. Then you can move within categorisations depending on the current financial situation of the club. The facilities aren't there and you are locked into a lower categorisation. It's possible to support big academy investment without necessarily supporting a move to Cat One. If a great site was on the market suitable for Cat One specs United should get it, imo, even if we remain Cat Two.
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But the majority of cat 1 academies are ran by the countries most successful clubs. So naturally they have the bigger draw anyway, irrespective of status.

There was a piece that put us in the top 10 of clubs in the country for Premier league academy graduates.

Yep it's not the norm, but we've managed to do something right.

Plenty of cat one don't produced anything.
 
Money initially has to be used to reduce debt and the mortgage on the assets. It would be a dereliction of duty to get into the same financial mess of last season that nearly tipped us over the precipice. No more unpaid bills that affect first team preparation would be a start.

Secondly infrastructure has to be invested in. Shirecliffe needs an upgrade, no more leaky roofs. You can spend as much as you like on players but if they are sat on the treatment table for months due to a lack of post injury recovery support and facilities then you are defeating the object. We have a league1 standard off field infrastructure that requires investment. A hydro chamber in a portacabin and players being sent to private practice physios because the Club couldn't cope with the number of injuries tells its own story.

The derelict hotel is an eyesore and requires investment to enable another revenue stream to be opened.

A number of players will have their wages doubled as a contractual consequence of getting promoted back to the EPL. That will be a significant draw on monies available and is reflected in the rumours of a much smaller transfer pot.

Recruitment will have to bring much better value for money results than last time we were in the EPL. Keeping up to date with evolving data analysis in this field is critical. Hopefully the CEO now has this at the top of his list of bills to pay for along with the heating for the pitches.

Mitchells number two, lost to Reading, has not been replaced so it looks like we will be buying in more UW consultancy services at an increased cost in this field along with the additional cost of any consultancy fee sales. Steven Vanharen is identified as the Football and Recruitment Director for United World having responsibility for all 5 clubs including SUFC. He lists one his achievements as completely restructuring recruitment and scouting across all. Presumably there will be a cost for his services so it will be interesting to see whether we delve into the overseas market or not.

All of this requires a dynamic forward thinking plan supported not only by TV revenue but new investment and EPL standard sponsorship deals. We were paid a pittance for our shirt deal last time in the EPL compared to other clubs. Unfortunately whilst we are in new buyer drift mode this is unlikely to happen and continuing with the 2 plate spinners back in Sheffield in a CEO and PH is likely to result in the same problems resurfacing. PH will have to borrow JOC's magic hat again to pull out a few rabbits.

For the Club to move forward imo a sale has to take place asap. That doesn't mean the current Board absolve themselves of their duties whilst the process is ongoing. It will be interesting to see whether this enthusiasm for all things Sheffield United lasts amongst United World employees should we hit a fork in the road on our impending EPL journey.
 
I agree with almost all of that Addison except the first sentence. We only need to repay debts due or overdue, there's no onus on us repaying the mortgage for example if it's not due yet. That said, United do have a fiduciary duty to our creditors to ensure that we can pay the debts when they become due and that will be part of the multi-year planning which is standard practice for any business the size of United.

The off-field stuff has been rank amateur recently though so I'm not overly confident that will actually happen.
 

If we're relatively successful as a CAT 2 Academy, logic would suggest that stepping up to CAT 1 would see us being even more successful. Better facilities, better staff, holding onto better players combined with what we're already doing so well, suggests to me, that any investment needed would be a relatively low risk gamble. Not sure I buy the idea of investing purely with the aim of staying in the PL or bust. Building for the long term has to be on an equal footing with PL Survival.
 
nopigfansintown said:
Another factor is facilities. You can build the facilities without having the Cat one status. Then you can move within categorisations depending on the current financial situation of the club. The facilities aren't there and you are locked into a lower categorisation. It's possible to support big academy investment without necessarily supporting a move to Cat One. If a great site was on the market suitable for Cat One specs United should get it, imo, even if we remain Cat Two.
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This is how I want us to go. I don't think we need half the things that are required for a Cat 1 academy but we need to ensure that we're the best of the Cat 2 academies and that we can develop our young players (both within the first team and through loans). The top academies are a huge draw for both young players and their parents who are often 'bought off'. The downside is that opportunities are usually limited. Look at Chelsea. So much talent wasted every single year. They spend their money scooping up talent like Salah and KDB and then seeing them make their rivals successful. They still get young players because they offer them an obscene amount of money but ambitious players must now be thinking twice due to the lack of chances in the first team.
 
Tarqs said:
We have one of the most successful academies we've had in my lifetime, is not THE most.

Cat 1 status will cost us millions and millions to build and structure, it will cost us millions and millions per season in upkeep.

What guarantees will it give us, over what we already have?

I'll tell you, none!
Click to expand...
Leicester have a Cat 1 academy and look at what's just happened to them, I wonder how long they could sustain that for if they don't go straight back up. I agree we do need to improve the academy, but lets not chuck everything at it
 
Tarqs said:
Can you tell me how the likes of Reading moved forward with a cat 1 academy?
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Reading failed so let's not try and build on our successful academy. Staying the same is going backwards.

Now can you tell me how spending £24m on a striker moved us forward? It didn't.

Doesn't mean the next expensive signing will flop anymore than Reading's academy flopping means ours would. There's no logic to either line of thinking
 
Davalon said:
I've heard (from someone high up at the club) that the Prince will syphon off half of that.
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Always makes me laugh comments like that how in gods name do you take out half of the money I run my own business and trust me it’s impossible
 
Fish Head Blade said:
Always makes me laugh comments like that how in gods name do you take out half of the money I run my own business and trust me it’s impossible
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It was a pisstake on those always say the owner is taking money out and those who always know someone 'high up' at the club
 
Green7361 said:
Leicester have a Cat 1 academy and look at what's just happened to them, I wonder how long they could sustain that for if they don't go straight back up. I agree we do need to improve the academy, but lets not chuck everything at it
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Do you not thinking having a world class training ground and academy might be more beneficial than instead having two £20 million signings on £100k per week who aren't making the first team?

I'm going to suggest it will serve them well.

Considering they've got Barnes, Dewsbury-Hall, Luke Thomas, Choudhury and Iversen playing for their first team at the moment, That's half a very good Championship side.
 
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Green7361 said:
Leicester have a Cat 1 academy and look at what's just happened to them, I wonder how long they could sustain that for if they don't go straight back up. I agree we do need to improve the academy, but lets not chuck everything at it
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Different scenarios really, they've just spent 100m on it.

Different ball park to us financially.
 
bladesmanluke said:
Reading failed so let's not try and build on our successful academy. Staying the same is going backwards.

Now can you tell me how spending £24m on a striker moved us forward? It didn't.

Doesn't mean the next expensive signing will flop anymore than Reading's academy flopping means ours would. There's no logic to either line of thinking
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We haven't ever been cat 1...

Has our academy gone backwards in that period?

This aint football manager whereby better academies automatically produce better regens.

There seems to be a demand for us to be cat 1 and most don't even understand the difficulties and financials behind it.

We can't afford it, it's pretty simple really.
 
Abdullah's trousering fund??
Does such a thing exist? Does SUFC have any familiarity with the notion of transparency? Or do we follow time honoured excuses where waffle and plausability are stretched to the nth degree??

Dipping one's fingers into the company till isn't a new pastime, but if that's a perception held by some of the club's hierarchy perhaps we're viewed as ripe for stuffing? What I, and thousands of others, would appreciate is the acknowledgement that club funds are just that, not some sort one-off final payment that the good and the worthy imagine is theirs simply because.......well, you fill in the blank spaces.

Tugging the forelock with the utmost respect on the understanding that deniability is swallowed wholesale.
 
Nicolaus_Copernicus said:
So, at the very worst, that’s the best part of £200m we’re in for, and that’s not including the increase in sponsorship, ticketing and corporate revenues for at least 1 season.

Let’s use it wisely, eh?
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Hi Stegosaurus here

I'm sure the Prince has his eye on a new Dubai property and a new Rolls Royce as we speak.
 

Isn't the main argument for Cat 1 something to do with being able to cast our net wider. As a Cat 2 don't we have a geographical 'limit' on where we can scout? So although we have a good reputation as an academy there are certain youngsters that are simply out of our reach currently??
 
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