Midfield.

[Esablade]

Again, pure revisionism on your part. I don't recall you defending last seasons squad to the hilt, or saying "Mark my words Paul Coutts will be the next Michael Brown this time next season" as it happens.

Wilder presided over the biggest clearout in recent memory, bigger than even I expected actually, thereby confirming what I knew all along. Some retained players surprised me yes, I was wrong about Freeman for instance and I'm glad I was.

However, I'm not the one who started out making daft comparisons to players from 14 years ago on the basis of three months work. Which was the founding premise of this whole debate.

I think the there are two things re: Coutts.

1. He's fitter.
2. He's been giving a role in a set up that suits him.

...being part of the 'select few' to single out Coutts last season as 'quality when the ball was near him', I feel fully qualified to comment on this subject

 

[Tyler Durden]

I think the there are two things re: Coutts.

1. He's fitter.
2. He's been giving a role in a set up that suits him.

...being part of the 'select few' to single out Coutts last season as 'quality when the ball was near him', I feel fully qualified to comment on this subject

Fuck off back to the off-topic board, I like you better on there

 

[NE Blade]

So to say Coutts would be behind Sharp in any thoughts about player of the season or having an impact is laughable. Because simply Sharp is not in any position to influence the game as Coutts and now Fleck.

I'll have to remember that Sharp isn't in a position to influence games next time we get a penalty or he's through one on one with the keeper.

Likewise, Ched Evans scoring 30+ goals had no influence on us finishing third. Once he got sent down thankfully our midfield continued to create and we saw no apparent downturn in results.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Again, pure revisionism on your part. I don't recall you defending last seasons squad to the hilt, or saying "Mark my words Paul Coutts will be the next Michael Brown this time next season" as it happens.

Wilder presided over the biggest clearout in recent memory, bigger than even I expected actually, thereby confirming what I knew all along. Some retained players surprised me yes, I was wrong about Freeman for instance and I'm glad I was.

However, I'm not the one who started out making daft comparisons to players from 14 years ago on the basis of three months work. Which was the founding premise of this whole debate.

I wasn't here last season so no you wouldn't.
But to put you in the picture....I didn't believe that the squad we had last season was as bad as Adkins made it look. Adkins succeeded in making the squad worse, rather than better. I didn't believe all the players we had were shit, although I did think we had some pretty average dross in defence and goal.
As for Coutts.....from the first time I saw him in the flesh shortly after his arrival the words I used to my brother was "Rolls Royce" oozed class, glided past players and showed glimpses of quality. What I couldn't figure out was why we weren't making the most of that. I did get frustrated at his lack of fitness, and often his desire to work harder but rather than blame the player I would look at the manager and question why he couldn't get that ability to perform regularly.
Seems it was a huge failing of that manager with the benefit of seeing what Wilder has done! I wouldn't say he was ever going the be the next Brown....because they are totally different players. Would I like Coutts to be scoring like Brown did for that season....of course. But that's not his game. Would I want him committing silly fouls, or the physical assaults Brown often did? No I wouldn't.

As a pair, I prefer Fleck and Coutts to the pairing of McCall and Brown. No direct individual comparisons, or saying one was better then the other. I jus prefer the way they work, compared to them. Tha is my belief, and I believe going forwards it would be a more productive partnership than that of Brown and McCall. Assuming we can keep it together that is.

 

[NE Blade]

Time for some facts.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-league-one/25/statistics/assists

John Fleck - 7 assists
Billy Sharp - 3 assists

I kept scrolling down but I couldn't find Paul Coutts. Whoever complies the stats for League One is obviously tainted by his anger at watching the performances Coutts turned in last season when he was not deployed in the right system under Nigel Adkins.

 

[sitwell]

I wasn't here last season so no you wouldn't.
But to put you in the picture....I didn't believe that the squad we had last season was as bad as Adkins made it look. Adkins succeeded in making the squad worse, rather than better. I didn't believe all the players we had were shit, although I did think we had some pretty average dross in defence and goal.
As for Coutts.....from the first time I saw him in the flesh shortly after his arrival the words I used to my brother was "Rolls Royce" oozed class, glided past players and showed glimpses of quality. What I couldn't figure out was why we weren't making the most of that. I did get frustrated at his lack of fitness, and often his desire to work harder but rather than blame the player I would look at the manager and question why he couldn't get that ability to perform regularly.
Seems it was a huge failing of that manager with the benefit of seeing what Wilder has done! I wouldn't say he was ever going the be the next Brown....because they are totally different players. Would I like Coutts to be scoring like Brown did for that season....of course. But that's not his game. Would I want him committing silly fouls, or the physical assaults Brown often did? No I wouldn't.

As a pair, I prefer Fleck and Coutts to the pairing of McCall and Brown. No direct individual comparisons, or saying one was better then the other. I jus prefer the way they work, compared to them. Tha is my belief, and I believe going forwards it would be a more productive partnership than that of Brown and McCall. Assuming we can keep it together that is.

Stop wasting your time ,some have decided that Coutts will never be a player because they base it all on their' view of him last season. They have to find a negative ,anyone who tries to find a negative at the moment is a fool.

 

[Grizzly blade]

I'll have to remember that Sharp isn't in a position to influence games next time we get a penalty or he's through one on one with the keeper.

Likewise, Ched Evans scoring 30+ goals had no influence on us finishing third. Once he got sent down thankfully our midfield continued to create and we saw no apparent downturn in results.

No...but you could do well to remember why we have a penalty in the first place or he's one on one with the keeper. It certainly won't be because Sharp has picked up the ball off the centre half in his own half and run the length of the field to win a penalty, or woven a path through midfield and defence to be one on one with the keeper!

Or that despite scoring 30 plus goals it wasn't enough to gain any success that season.....kinda suggests that we didn't win enough games? Or lost too many? Maybe we couldn't keep hold of the ball in midfield to see games out? Maybe the midfield didn't defend well enough when we didn't have the ball?

 

[sitwell]

Time for some facts.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-league-one/25/statistics/assists

John Fleck - 7 assists
Billy Sharp - 3 assists

I kept scrolling down but I couldn't find Paul Coutts. Whoever complies the stats for League One is obviously tainted by his anger at watching the performances Coutts turned in last season when he was not deployed in the right system under Nigel Adkins.

Get back to football manager ,its obviously how you see a game of football. It pisses me off that good players have to win over the likes of you who have no idea about football in my opinion.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Time for some facts.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-league-one/25/statistics/assists

John Fleck - 7 assists
Billy Sharp - 3 assists

I kept scrolling down but I couldn't find Paul Coutts. Whoever complies the stats for League One is obviously tainted by his anger at watching the performances Coutts turned in last season when he was not deployed in the right system under Nigel Adkins.

Thanks for that....not sure what point it makes other than Fleck is doing well with assists.

 

[Tyler Durden]

I wasn't here last season so no you wouldn't.
But to put you in the picture....I didn't believe that the squad we had last season was as bad as Adkins made it look. Adkins succeeded in making the squad worse, rather than better. I didn't believe all the players we had were shit, although I did think we had some pretty average dross in defence and goal.
As for Coutts.....from the first time I saw him in the flesh shortly after his arrival the words I used to my brother was "Rolls Royce" oozed class, glided past players and showed glimpses of quality. What I couldn't figure out was why we weren't making the most of that. I did get frustrated at his lack of fitness, and often his desire to work harder but rather than blame the player I would look at the manager and question why he couldn't get that ability to perform regularly.
Seems it was a huge failing of that manager with the benefit of seeing what Wilder has done! I wouldn't say he was ever going the be the next Brown....because they are totally different players. Would I like Coutts to be scoring like Brown did for that season....of course. But that's not his game. Would I want him committing silly fouls, or the physical assaults Brown often did? No I wouldn't.

As a pair, I prefer Fleck and Coutts to the pairing of McCall and Brown. No direct individual comparisons, or saying one was better then the other. I jus prefer the way they work, compared to them. Tha is my belief, and I believe going forwards it would be a more productive partnership than that of Brown and McCall. Assuming we can keep it together that is.

Fair enough, but for Fleck and Coutts to be a more productive partnership than McCall and Brown, that would require us to be at the top-end of the 2nd tier.
Given the incredible upturn in quality of the Championship in recent years, I can't see how any of our current squad would cope at that level. The overhaul required to make us competitive at that level will be as big as, if not bigger than the one required to make us decent again at this one.

 

[Grizzly blade]

Fair enough, but for Fleck and Coutts to be a more productive partnership than McCall and Brown, that would require us to be at the top-end of the 2nd tier.
Given the incredible upturn in quality of the Championship in recent years, I can't see how any of our current squad would cope at that level. The overhaul required to make us competitive at that level will be as big as, if not bigger than the one required to make us decent again at this one.

Agreed regarding the upturn in quality in the Championship, which kinda negates the point about Brown and zmcCall success up there. In that I mean 38-40 year old McCall wouldn't have coped in the play off sides now. A
So interesting that after leaving us Brown never had any position in a side where he took the free kicks, was the creative player. He was a destroyer generally.
Take the piss if you like, but I see enough quality in both Fleck and Coutts to go higher. Coventry fans were always talking about Fleck going missing....well it seems their managers maybe didn't get the best from him much like our past managers didn't get the best from Coutts!

I might be wrong....we might sell the pair before we get there.

 

[NE Blade]

Stop wasting your time ,some have decided that Coutts will never be a player because they base it all on their' view of him last season. They have to find a negative ,anyone who tries to find a negative at the moment is a fool.

Thanks for that....not sure what point it makes other than Fleck is doing well with assists.

I was pointing out that Billy Sharp has created more goals than Coutts. As well as scoring them. Last time I checked (on Football Manager) it was goals that win matches.

The team is performing great. I honestly think this is our year. I don't think Coutts and Fleck are even close to being as good as McCall and Brown were.

Up the Blades.

 

[Slim Man]

The signing of Fleck was our key to promotion.

We were winning games without him but he's taken us to a whole new level. Dare I say... a championship level?

 

[Tyler Durden]

Agreed regarding the upturn in quality in the Championship, which kinda negates the point about Brown and zmcCall success up there. In that I mean 38-40 year old McCall wouldn't have coped in the play off sides now. A
So interesting that after leaving us Brown never had any position in a side where he took the free kicks, was the creative player. He was a destroyer generally.
Take the piss if you like, but I see enough quality in both Fleck and Coutts to go higher. Coventry fans were always talking about Fleck going missing....well it seems their managers maybe didn't get the best from him much like our past managers didn't get the best from Coutts!

I might be wrong....we might sell the pair before we get there.

I can't argue with that. Don't get me wrong, Fleck has impressed me so far and Coutts does have the ability to take us higher.
The only point I remain sceptical on is whether he'll maintain the level of application needed throughout the next 6 months, but if I'm proven wrong on that then I'll be delighted, because the overall progress of the club is always the number one priority.

 

[Revolution]

I was pointing out that Billy Sharp has created more goals than Coutts. As well as scoring them. Last time I checked (on Football Manager) it was goals that win matches.

The team is performing great. I honestly think this is our year. I don't think Coutts and Fleck are even close to being as good as McCall and Brown were.

Up the Blades.

That's the point.

No one is arguing that Coutts has not improved.
No one is disputing that the midfield is doing well

People are arguing how much Coutts has improved, I suppose.

But the statement people really have a problem with is the idea that McCall and Brown are a worse pairing than Coutts and Fleck. That does not stand up to serious scrutiny.

 

[sitwell]

I can't argue with that. Don't get me wrong, Fleck has impressed me so far and Coutts does have the ability to take us higher.
The only point I remain sceptical on is whether he'll maintain the level of application needed throughout the next 6 months, but if I'm proven wrong on that then I'll be delighted, because the overall progress of the club is always the number one priority.

Obviously Wilder does ,it was a statement yesterday making him captain. I just love watching him play ,as I do them all at the moment ,I think making him captain is a show of faith that I hope will result in a new contract. Also Duffy should get a mention because as a 3 they are fluid and great to watch. I must admit I had doubts about Duffy after his first 6 games but he has won me round ,great player.

 

[Grecian2000]

Time for some facts.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/english-league-one/25/statistics/assists

John Fleck - 7 assists
Billy Sharp - 3 assists

I kept scrolling down but I couldn't find Paul Coutts. Whoever complies the stats for League One is obviously tainted by his anger at watching the performances Coutts turned in last season when he was not deployed in the right system under Nigel Adkins.

FACTS? You claim people counting assists amounts to FACTS? Couldn't be further from the truth.

They are the most ridiculous statistics in football (might be more accurate in Ice Hockey) and represent the last player to touch the ball prior to the goal scorer, whether this is a George Best style run down the wing beating 5 players and laying it on a plate for the CF, or the goalkeeper rolling out to Best before he goes on the mazy run but decides to score himself instead of pass.
Take Sharps winner against MK. Assist goes to Scougall (and a good effort from him) but the goal comes about because Coutts picks him out from 40 yards away. No assist awarded (or indeed needed if you watch the game instead of reading the stats).

We had this discussion whilst Kev Mc was playing (indeed Highbury Blade spent an unfeasible amount of time working out who was actually involved in each goal we scored) because he got few actual assists but played a key part in quite a few.
Assists? Statistics for the sake of it and not to be trusted.
.

 

[sitwell]

FACTS? You claim people counting assists amounts to FACTS? Couldn't be further from the truth.

They are the most ridiculous statistics in football (might be more accurate in Ice Hockey) and represent the last player to touch the ball prior to the goal scorer, whether this is a George Best style run down the wing beating 5 players and laying it on a plate for the CF, or the goalkeeper rolling out to Best before he goes on the mazy run but decides to score himself instead of pass.
Take Sharps winner against MK. Assist goes to Scougall (and a good effort from him) but the goal comes about because Coutts picks him out from 40 yards away. No assist awarded (or indeed needed if you watch the game instead of reading the stats).

We had this discussion whilst Kev Mc was playing (indeed Highbury Blade spent an unfeasible amount of time working out who was actually involved in each goal we scored) because he got few actual assists but played a key part in quite a few.
Assists? Statistics for the sake of it and not to be trusted.
.

Wasn't George Long second in our assists around this time last season. Its a stupid stat used by idiots.

 

[Fraggle Blade]

His poor positional awareness means he can't quite play CB, and although I like his commitment and grit in midfield, his poor vision, slow speed-of-thought and frankly shocking passing lets him down. It makes him look like a 'headless chicken' type of player, which frustrates me.

That's just my opinion, though.

I agree with the above.

For all his grit and commitment in midfield........have you ever noticed how many challenges he dives in for with a committed tackle......but the opponent still comes out with the ball at the end of it?
For his height he is still a bit powder puff.

I'd keep him as the utility man value, but he wouldn't get in above the other players we have for me.

 

[Bladesthorpe]

I agree with the above.

For all his grit and commitment in midfield........have you ever noticed how many challenges he dives in for with a committed tackle......but the opponent still comes out with the ball at the end of it?
For his height he is still a bit powder puff.

I'd keep him as the utility man value, but he wouldn't get in above the other players we have for me.

Rubbish, most tackles he comes away with the ball.

 

[Kevincarterversion2.0]

Is it really less than 12 months ago when we were watching the likes of Baxter, Hammond and Woolford lumbering around?

Only listend to the commentary and saw the highlights today but the movement of Fleck, Duffy, Coutts and co is like watching football from another planet to what we have put up with for the last few seasons.

Wilder deserves promotion this season on the dramatic turn around In the football he's brought to the Lane.

Well the midfield in stronger now for sure - we still perhaps need an endorcer in there, when things get really physical (or when Basham is injured).

Think it's a bit harsh on Baxter though - he was never a natural midfielder - his best position was in the hole, and he contributed way more then the other jokers you mention there (and others). Had he not been a moron off the field, he is the only player out of the lot let go in the summer that I'd have wanted to keep.

But he was a moron, and we moved on.

 

[NE Blade]

Get back to football manager ,its obviously how you see a game of football. It pisses me off that good players have to win over the likes of you who have no idea about football in my opinion.

I think you're getting a little carried away here Sitwell. It's OK for people to have different opinions without getting pissed off. I enjoy watching the Blades and using this forum. I do have something of an idea about football.

Coutts doesn't have to worry about winning me over, just winning games for United. He's improved drastically this season. Long may it continue!

 

[JohnDenver]

Think it's a bit harsh on Baxter though - he was never a natural midfielder - his best position was in the hole

Aye, the hole in Shawshank High Security....

 

[Fraggle Blade]

Rubbish, most tackles he comes away with the ball.

Rubbish....no he doesn't....watch again