Merging - it makes sense!

[shorehamview]

There is a case for the merging of the two Sheffield clubs, and by that of course I mean United and Wednesday. The case is based on logical reasoning, and not raw emotions, and given that neither Sheffield club is going to win a big trophy any time soon might be the only way forward. I know it's been discussed before, but I thought it timely that the matter be brought up again.

The main reason, indeed some may say the only reason, is economical. Given that both clubs have an overdraft or debt one one kind or another it will help with debt straight away in that they will only need one stadium, one squad, one training facility and one of everything else that there are currently two of. The spending power of two sets of fans would also be combined, and this is a massive source of potential revenue for the new merged club.

A shiny new stadium could be built, or even Don Valley purchased and extensively redeveloped, freeing Hillsborough and Bramall Lane to be sold for property development, selling properties in areas that can command high prices and purchasing a plot in a relatively cheaper area of Sheffield such as Don Valley. There would only be the need for one training ground freeing funds to run only one.

The main saving would be on the playing and managerial staff. Rather than spreading an amount of money, both investment and payments from the league between two set-ups there would be only one to fund, with the potential of bigger spends on both transfer fees and wages.

Such a large city as Sheffield, with a large fan-base to draw upon, would easily be able to fill a 50,000+ capacity stadium along the lines of the Emirates, given that a merged team should be able to compete for promotion to and survival in the Premier League. While there would of course be objections from the fans of both teams within a relatively short period of time a new merged Sheffield City team would be able to command a level of support both current teams would only be able to dream of. It's highly likely that there may be spin-off teams, rather in the vein of FC United of Manchester, but these will probably not be supported by many fans, as most would prefer to watch football in a stadium with top facilities supporting a team competing for honours. It would be harder to get the older supporters to change allegiances, but younger ones would easily want to support a successful local team rather than a mediocre local team or a team from elsewhere like Chelsea or Man Utd. No more Blades, no more Owls, we will all be Cutlers. Or Steelmen. Or Don Valleyists. Or something else...




This is a hypothetical argument, as it's a pretty far-fetched subject, and I for one would be against it. But it's certainly possible to envisage some businessmen thinking purely about having a Sheffield team in the Premier League and competing for trophies, and a merger would probably be the easiest way to do it. United won't be looking at Premier League glory any time soon and Wednesday are more likely to be in the Blue Square in a few years than Europe, unless there's another world war.

Think about it coldly, and it makes perfect sense. Think about it with any degree of passion and you'll certainly never want it to happen. I'd rather see United where they are rather than merge into a super-club. If I wanted to see a team spunk money away just for the hell of it in a shiny new stadium I'd go and watch Man City.

 

[sheffielder]

I used to say if it happened I would watch Man City. They have lost their appeal to me now though. I think unless a big take over happens to either Sheffield club the more likely it will happen say 10/15 years down the line. Let's face it, god know where both clubs could be then...

 

[de g.]

There is a case for the merging of the two Sheffield clubs, and by that of course I mean United and Wednesday. The case is based on logical reasoning, and not raw emotions, and given that neither Sheffield club is going to win a big trophy any time soon might be the only way forward. I know it's been discussed before, but I thought it timely that the matter be brought up again.

The main reason, indeed some may say the only reason, is economical. Given that both clubs have an overdraft or debt one one kind or another it will help with debt straight away in that they will only need one stadium, one squad, one training facility and one of everything else that there are currently two of. The spending power of two sets of fans would also be combined, and this is a massive source of potential revenue for the new merged club.

There is a case, but I think it is based on fundamentally flawed reasoning actually. I know it is the logical thing to do, but the assumption is based on the idea that football fans are somehow reasonable. We aren't, which is why hundreds of thousands of people every week are happy to keep backing a loser.

A shiny new stadium could be built, or even Don Valley purchased and extensively redeveloped, freeing Hillsborough and Bramall Lane to be sold for property development, selling properties in areas that can command high prices and purchasing a plot in a relatively cheaper area of Sheffield such as Don Valley. There would only be the need for one training ground freeing funds to run only one.

Unfortunately, if it came down to a merger between the two clubs, the only place it would take place would be at Hillsborough. While it needs more spent on it to bring it up to standard, there is far more value in the use of BDTBL for another purpose such as housing. Hillsborough would also be very difficult to dispose of in that it has a degree of architectural interest, their South Stand being an Archibald Leitch design and the Spion Kop also being of some historic interest. Land in Don Valley would likely not be terribly desirable for a stadium, and the COuncil wouldn't be particularly keen - the last thing you want is a stadium int he middle of nowhere which is impossible to get to.

The main saving would be on the playing and managerial staff. Rather than spreading an amount of money, both investment and payments from the league between two set-ups there would be only one to fund, with the potential of bigger spends on both transfer fees and wages.

Except that this would not be much of a saving once you take into account the need to compete at the highest level. Unless the newly merged club were a Premier League club, there would also be half the revenue to sustain half the playing and managerial staff.

Such a large city as Sheffield, with a large fan-base to draw upon, would easily be able to fill a 50,000+ capacity stadium along the lines of the Emirates, given that a merged team should be able to compete for promotion to and survival in the Premier League.

I actually agree with this. However...

While there would of course be objections from the fans of both teams within a relatively short period of time a new merged Sheffield City team would be able to command a level of support both current teams would only be able to dream of.

I don't think the irrational football fans of Sheffield are likely to 'buy' this approach. They'll simply cease to bother and bemoan the loss of their clubs, rather than throwing their weight behind the new club; people don't change their support easily if at all. Remember what happened to Sheffield Eagles when they merged with Huddersfield?

It's highly likely that there may be spin-off teams, rather in the vein of FC United of Manchester, but these will probably not be supported by many fans, as most would prefer to watch football in a stadium with top facilities supporting a team competing for honours. It would be harder to get the older supporters to change allegiances, but younger ones would easily want to support a successful local team rather than a mediocre local team or a team from elsewhere like Chelsea or Man Utd. No more Blades, no more Owls, we will all be Cutlers. Or Steelmen. Or Don Valleyists. Or something else...

See above about the irrationality of football fans! People want to watch a team that is 'theirs', and that matters far more than baubles and star players.

This is a hypothetical argument, as it's a pretty far-fetched subject, and I for one would be against it. But it's certainly possible to envisage some businessmen thinking purely about having a Sheffield team in the Premier League and competing for trophies, and a merger would probably be the easiest way to do it. United won't be looking at Premier League glory any time soon and Wednesday are more likely to be in the Blue Square in a few years than Europe, unless there's another world war.

It's already been thought and acted upon - why else do you think Mike McDonald even looked at Sheffield United?

Personally, I think that the upper leagues of English football are going to change soon. In order to reduce fixture congestion but improve the quality of the top fixtures, I think that there will be a larger, two-tier Premier League of 28-32 teams which is a much more closed shop, and which will give clubs chance to play their reserve teams in the rump of the football league as well. Sheffield United need to ensure that we are in a position to be one of the clubs which makes up an extended PL, something which will be decided not just on position but on factors like the location of the club (in practical terms - we need to retain the upper hand in Sheffield). But we're not on a course for football outside the league, not by a long shot.

Think about it coldly, and it makes perfect sense. Think about it with any degree of passion and you'll certainly never want it to happen. I'd rather see United where they are rather than merge into a super-club. If I wanted to see a team spunk money away just for the hell of it in a shiny new stadium I'd go and watch Man City.

It makes sense, but it will never happen.

If we and they want to save or make more money, there would be a certain scope for having a shared approach to some things. We could, for instance, share the management of business functions such as HR and accounting. A future shared stadium a lá Inter and Milan could be viable with profits from non-matchday uses shared between the clubs. Joint sponsorship deals would give a greater exposure to brands and raises into a different league in terms of the types of sponsors we can attract - and it attracts sponsors who don't wish to alienate half a city (see Celtic and Rangers for how this works). Joint kit deals would enable us to get a better deal on replica shirts meaning more profit.

However much joint we do though, I cannot ever see a situation where, when it comes to the pitch, Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday fans would stand alongside one another week-in-week-out and cheer the same local team.

 

[2ndtenorblade]

I read it to the end expecting a punch line.

 

[JohnDenver]

I read it to the end expecting a punch line.

Yeah, where's the funny bit? Now I'm just miserable!

 

[Wards]

I'd never watch a merged team, I think most Blades would be of the same opinion.

I'd rather see us in the same division for the next 30 years than watch a soulless entity like a merged club.

Shudder.

 

[moDtheGod]

I don't think the irrational football fans of Sheffield are likely to 'buy' this approach. They'll simply cease to bother and bemoan the loss of their clubs, rather than throwing their weight behind the new club

This is the thing. People say the club would get 50 or 60 thousand a week, but it's not a case of just adding the fans together. I think the team would probably get the same sort of weekly attendance - 25-30,000.

I wouldn't be too fussed by it personally - I was brought up with United and all its history and I wouldn't want any part of a plastic, manufactured team. It wouldn't feel like "my" club and I'd struggle to affiliate with it.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

In theory it makes sense and is possibly the only way either club will ever succeed at the highest level. Sadly though whilst it is practical in theory, it isnt in reality.

In terms of attracting fans, its like MtG says....a merged club would still only attract between 20-30k tops at first. In reality, adding the two sets of fans together wouldnt happen immediately. You could probably double that figure if they started doing well/winning things as people will flock towards success like sheep. But how is a merged club supposed to achieve the required pulling power if it is trying to move forward on average championship gates????

Like I said, it makes sense in theory but it would probably be more difficult to get it going than people think as at least 50% of Sheffield football fans (probably more) wouldnt buy into it....certainly not at first. I know I wouldnt and thats not because Im not open minded. It is simply because my allegiance to United comes from my heart and I just wouldnt be able to get interested in a merged club with no history.

 

[Ollessendro]

Interesting post SV. Shockingly I find that we are in agreement again. Perhaps there is some clapper in me, some sunshine in you, or there is not that much difference between the 2 'polar' camps

There is also a case for a United Ireland, but you tr saying that to the Unionists and the Protestant population living in the North. From an ideological stand point then having one club in Sheffield makes sense, but from a practical stand point it makes no sense whatsoever. If we doing things all over again i'd fiercly argue for only one club in Sheffield, but now I'd hate to be joined with Wednesday.

Having one clun in Sheffield would have massive advantages. Think of the crowds we could get. With the piggies filling the sty when they were in the prem and us filling BDTBL when we were in the Prem you are talking about easily filling a 50/60k stadium week in week out. Think about Leeds fands base. They were getting 35k a week for second tier football. It's no conincidnce that they only have one team. Similar story with Norwich. Abroad I would cite Marseille (where I've just been). They are the only (top tier) team in the whole of Provence. Not sure what the population of Provence is, but everyone in Provence supports L'OM.

However (a mighty big one) with both clubs having proud historys, being established and absolutely hating each other any merge would be completely out of the question. I'd be throughly opposed to any merger on these grounds. Simple as. For this reason I can never see it happening.

 

[Highbury_Blade]

In theory it makes sense and is possibly the only way either club will ever succeed at the highest level. Sadly though whilst it is practical in theory, it isnt in reality.

In terms of attracting fans, its like MtG says....a merged club would still only attract between 20-30k tops at first. In reality, adding the two sets of fans together wouldnt happen immediately. You could probably double that figure if they started doing well/winning things as people will flock towards success like sheep. But how is a merged club supposed to achieve the required pulling power if it is trying to move forward on average championship gates????

Like I said, it makes sense in theory but it would probably be more difficult to get it going than people think as at least 50% of Sheffield football fans (probably more) wouldnt buy into it....certainly not at first. I know I wouldnt and thats not because Im not open minded. It is simply because my allegiance to United comes from my heart and I just wouldnt be able to get interested in a merged club with no history.

I strongly suspect that if a merger was to happen then within 20 years Sheffield FC would be competing at the same level as the merged club, through the amount of disenchanted fans swapping their allegiance.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

It would make a convenient break with Sheffield for me if the clubs merged. I no longer live there and I keep in touch largely through United. There would be nothing for me to connect to in any merged club - this would probably be the case for many long-term exiles. Why make a 100+ mile round trip to see a club that is no longer yours?

I also don't think that the merged side would be anything like as 1+1=2 as it is made out. Unless the new merged club swept all before them the cynicism that pervades both clubs supporters would lead to complete apathy and we'd end up with one mediocre Sheffield club instead of two.

In terms of character, there are hard-core of supporters of both clubs who would relish the "us against the world" of a pheonix from the flames side - AFC United of Manchester are probably a one-off in terms of following, but Wimbledon have shown it's possible to get back to something like. For all of the oldies who bemoan the lack of loyalty from those who didn't experience the travelling, drinking and larking about of the fourth division days - this could be your chance to get it back - AND YOU COULD HAVE THE ADDED BENEFIT OF IT FEELING LIKE IT WAS SUCCESS!

 

[Kenilworth]

Factions

An ersatz Sheffield team? I wouldn't go any where near it. I'm with Wards on this one.

Imagine if it did happen, though, there would be factions within the crowd on match day and outside where pockets of Pigs and Blades would chant for their team and the fighting would soon follow.

Imagine if it did happen and the team was still shit. No guarantee of success in this game. Where would anyone go then?

MK Dons and AFC Wimbledon is your benchmark - look at that situation. Wimbledon now back within spitting distance of the league and if they get their own stadium back in Merton as opposed to sharing Kingstonian's ground they will be back where they were when they folded/transformed into a franchise.

Imagine if it did happen, it would be the death of football for me and thousands of others -and it's already riddled with a cancer of greed and elitism.

The only way one team should come out on top is by a process of natural selection. The fittest survives. Football isn't like that anymore though with the benefactors that take up a club as an executive toy. Unfortunately becuase of a lack on money in Sheffield in general compared to the Jack Walkers and the Dave Wheelan's of this world the Blades and the Pigs, to a lesser extent, have always struggled to compete.

Look at the contrast between Lancashire clubs abd Yorkshire clubs and ask yourself why there are so many clubs in the prem from the North West and none from Yorkshire. My consideered opinion is that it comes down to brass and balls. We have, and never have had either.

 

[Jim Chimmerney]

I mentioned this on BU a few years ago and was shot down in flames but I can see a situation similar to American Football in years to come (and I said at the time that I didn't think the increasing number of American investors was a coincidence).

Obviously this is very simplistic and far from a blueprint but one team in each city (more for the major cities, and whether Sheffield is included is debatable) and a whole new approach to the transfer system to tie in with that used in American Football. Obviously this would completely re-hash football as we know it and needs the backing of Sky etc but long term, to have an elite league where, in theory, every team has a chance of winning does have its plus points.

Whether all the other changes such as teams merging etc would work and be accepted is another question altogether. Unfortunately, with finance as it is, crowds dwindling again, clubs merging, plenty folding and a whole new approach might be the only option in years to come.

 

[SheepdipBlade]

If a merged club gained promotion to the PL within 3 seasons it would IMO succeed as there are plenty of "glory hunters" in Sheffield. The increase in our attendance in the PL season demonstated that. If the new club failed to get promoted it would become another unloved MK Dons. Sheffield FC are unlikely to pick up the mantle due to their cherished amateur status but a new "Blades FC" or "Oink" club could work it's way up the leagues given enough decades.

Anyway - football on a national or international level is likely to change more quickly than football in Sheffield, so there's probably no need for a merger to happen.

 

[beightonblade]

merging ......................bang on the button !

red from the Blades, white from the pigs....................United from the Blades, Sheffield from the pigs............. swillborough is a dump and out in the sticks so BDTBL it is.

Job done.

 

[de g.]

merging ......................bang on the button !

red from the Blades, white from the pigs....................United from the Blades, Sheffield from the pigs............. swillborough is a dump and out in the sticks so BDTBL it is.

Job done.

And therein lies part of the problem - how do the clubs merge where it is not a takeover by one of the other?

 

[Moosie]

Anyway - football on a national or international level is likely to change more quickly than football in Sheffield, so there's probably no need for a merger to happen.

And what do you mean by that?

The only way football will change if no clubs are to be run without debt, or big sugar daddys in charge. And i for one can't see that happening in the near future can you?

The way united or that shower from the other side of the city will succeed is the way Man City, and Chelsea have gone about it. A rich sugar daddy in charge of them.

 

[lenners]

Currently in the Prem:
Stoke
Blackpool
Wigan
Birmingham
Blackburn
Bolton
Wolves
West Brom

And yet we need to merge?
Underlines everything that's wrong with Sheffield thinking in so many ways.

 

[raul]

If we ever get a European League - which we will the day the G18 clubs work out they'll earn £1 more than under the current formats - then to keep Sky/Sponsorships high for the rest of us there will be big changes to try and retain the TV audiences. The Old Infirm will be one and old traditional clubs being encouraged to merge will be another. There will be no room for something called Coventry AND something called Leicester. There will be a combined Bristol team. And, if both clubs continue to drift toward the edge of the waterfall........

If, in 10 years time, both of us are in similar positions to now, with 10,000 lost souls between us, it'll be on the agenda.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

Currently in the Prem:
Stoke
Blackpool
Wigan
Birmingham
Blackburn
Bolton
Wolves
West Brom

And yet we need to merge?
Underlines everything that's wrong with Sheffield thinking in so many ways.

You have a point lenners. Looking at it from that angle it makes the idea look desperate and pathetic sadly. Its definately the only way this city will ever have a massively succesful club though (im talking on the level of Spurs/Arsenal etc.). Gave up on that a long time ago though. Success for me is getting to the PL and staying there.

 

[JohnDenver]

Looking at it from that angle it makes the idea look desperate and pathetic sadly.

On that note, please can we draw a line under it? This one will do:

________________________________________________________

 

[Bath Blade]

One of the many reasons why United are my team is that we are about the right size club that I enjoy. That's not to say I don't want success but I don't think I'd enjoy supporting a club at the top end of the Premiership as much, and if Sheikh Mansour had decided on us instead of Man City, Ithink my enthusiasm would have waned significantly. Therefore I certainly wouldn't be one for following a merged Sheffield City FC in a 50,000 seater stadium with players on £100k a week and completely detached from the fans.

 

[SteelCity Blade]

One of the many reasons why United are my team is that we are about the right size club that I enjoy. That's not to say I don't want success but I don't think I'd enjoy supporting a club at the top end of the Premiership as much, and if Sheikh Mansour had decided on us instead of Man City, Ithink my enthusiasm would have waned significantly. Therefore I certainly wouldn't be one for following a merged Sheffield City FC in a 50,000 seater stadium with players on £100k a week and completely detached from the fans.

I know exactly where you're coming from. Its about the identity of the club and the traditions/social aspect. We're a northern club with traditional working class values and that is the loveable thing about SUFC....sadly its probably also the reason we never win anything but hey-ho!

Its true though, it wouldnt be the same if a rich benefactor came in and turned us into a global entity. I grew up with my old fella taking me on the Kop and then a little later in the South Stand when all we had to stare at was a work site over in John Street. We have always been a skint suffering club in my time and it made promotions all the sweeter because of it.

We can moan and bleet all we want about other clubs having it all and it not being fair but you could pick any one of the top 7 or 8 clubs in the Premier League (5 of which who tend to just co-exist year in year out) and I wouldnt swap with a single one of them

UTB :thumbup:

 

[BornOnShorehamStreet]

Everyone talikng about a merger seem to concetrate on the red and whites and the blue and whites merging and I agrre that people wouldn't "feel" for the new merged club because it wasn't their club.

What about a merge that included Sheffield FC so that Sheffield FC was the new club? Everbody could get behind that I would think and even thjouigh we would have to start a couple of rungs below the league we'd set records for crowds in the lower leagues as we marched upwards!

Unless, of course, Sheffield FC could take over one of the places vacated by us or them. And they could play in red and blue stripes - bit like Barcelona (yeah I know, or Palace!!!!

 

[GRUMPY BLADE]

Whilst it makes sense to an accountant.......











...BOLLOCKS

 

[de g.]

And what do you mean by that?

The only way football will change if no clubs are to be run without debt, or big sugar daddys in charge. And i for one can't see that happening in the near future can you?

The way united or that shower from the other side of the city will succeed is the way Man City, and Chelsea have gone about it. A rich sugar daddy in charge of them.

Events dear boy...

Sheepdip is right, there are going to be changes. The FA want fewer games in the top flight, as do most of the clubs - they want to be able to focus on the European competitions and accommodate a mid-season break. The larger clubs want better matches for their reserve team players, and are very keen on the idea of them playing in the lower leagues. The lower leagues are a financial basket-case and the PL are eventually going to get sick of subsidising them out of their TV revenue.

I think we will see something to the following effect:

- A two-tier Premier League of 28 clubs. This will be drawn from among the 20 existing clubs, plus 8 of the larger or geographically more important non-PL teams, choosing from: Us/Wendy, Middlesbrough, Cardiff, Leeds, Derby, Forest, Bristol City, Portsmouth/Southampton, Leicester, Reading, Hull, Ipswich, Norwich, Preston, Charlton, QPR, Palace etc.

- Clubs in each tier play each other once, home and away, giving a league programme of 26 games per team. TV monies are more evenly split across all clubs, with promotion and relegation between tiers of three per season.

- Promotion to the second tier will be by a play-off at the end of the season, and it will be restricted to a club finishing top of the rest of the Football League with a stadium to a certain standard and with a capacity of more than 30,000 seats (thereby restricting prospects of promotion to the top level to only a few clubs as happens in Super League).

- The league cup to be cancelled. Its replacement will be a Premier League Cup played at mid-season, before or after the mid-term break. Seven groups of four clubs (with top teams seeded in the draw) play each other home and away with the top from each group plus best second-placed finisher completing a knockout competition (no replays). This gives a cup programme of between 6 and 9 games.

- Champion’s League places earned by the Premier League winner and runner up, with a place in qualifying to the winner of the Premier League Cup. A place in the Europa League goes to the winner of Premier League 2.

- The FA Cup continues broadly as it does already, with Premier League clubs entering in the third round. No replays to be held from the fourth round onwards reducing the scope for extra fixture congestion.

- The Johnson’s Paint Trophy opened up to all Football League clubs. The Europa League qualifying place for the winner of the League Cup to go to the winner of the JPT as a sweetener for their acceptance of the changes.

- The Football League reorganised on a regional basis for lower league clubs as a means of minimising costs for teams and supporters. A salary cap to be introduced. A place in Europa League qualifying goes to the winner of the Football League.

- Youth and/or reserve teams from the Premier League can enter the Football League but are ineligible for promotion to the Premier League and are bound by the same salary-cap rules as other Football League clubs. Premier League clubs can have formal ‘feeder club’ arrangements with Football League clubs or may even be permitted to own them.

For Premier League teams, this would give a maximum domestic programme of 42 games, and as few as 33 depending on cup success (or lack of). Currently, a Premier league team going to the final of both domestic knockout cups would play at least 50 games and as many as 57 depending on cup replays, with all clubs play at least 40 games currently.

 

[DP8789]

no it doesnt.....

 

[davidpinder]

We couldn't make a good team between us anyway and why would it help finance when both have massive debt

 

[kop_blade9]

Will never happen, thank god.
You won't get 50000 plus crowds because a lot of fans would turn their back on the new club.

 

[shorehamview]

I started this thread with the intention of it being something we could discuss in a reasoned manner. Most of us have managed that, which is remarkable in itself considering the extreme views we can hold. I don't agree with it, I was merely playing devil's advocate, and I'd probably be one of those swapping to Sheffield FC if it were to happen. I was just trying to make a case for debate rather than sticking up for it.

I can see that if accountants were solely responsible for the footballing decisions that it might well happen, but given the huge partisan support for the two clubs I can't see it ever happening. Many fans of both clubs take great delight in the misfortune of the other, after all, how many of us laughed ourselves silly when Wednesday went down? There aren't many football fans of either us or Wednesday who are of the "two successful clubs is good" mentality - I know lots of Blades whose second club is whoever beats Wednesday each week. It's a bit like the Scottish supporting whoever England play.

Sheffield football is too divided, too tribal for it to work. I do think that if we weren't as fierce about our rivalry then it might stand an outside chance, but there's no way I'd be happy following Sheffield City in my red and blue stripes. I just put it forward as a theoretical subject for debate. Someone else can do the next one....