McCabe, still there

[metalblade]

You have surpassed yourself is saying contradictory things in consecutive sentences.

Care to explain ? Whether he makes £1m or £10m he is the only party making anything, SUFC get no benefit.

 

[Balham]

I don't know if you can answer this, but it seems that McCabe was taking the hotel off United and selling it to Copthorne to relieve United of an ongoing deby liability, unlikely to be covered by hotel revenue. That looks a bad deal for Copthorne. How could he legally do that consonant with his duties as a director of Copthorne?

I thought the hotel was transferred to Scarborough Property? I would have thought that the argument would be that Scarborough trades in property and property management and therefore is better placed to make a success of the hotel than a football club.

As metalblade says, the hotel was a long term project but unfortunately SUFC plc was going to struggle to cover its short term losses. I believe that there is an option for SUFC to buy the hotel back "at market value" if that is a viable option in the future.

NB "market value" in 2010 was £15,000,001 (I think).

Hartley Hare hasn't the debt-for-equity swap already started?

BB (ACMA)

 

[Darren]

Care to explain ? Whether he makes £1m or £10m he is the only party making anything, SUFC get no benefit.

I would suggest "not making a vast amount" and "making good" are contradictory.

 

[metalblade]

I would suggest "not making a vast amount" and "making good" are contradictory.

I'd suggest you are wrong then.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I don't know if you can answer this, but it seems that McCabe was taking the hotel off United and selling it to Copthorne to relieve United of an ongoing deby liability, unlikely to be covered by hotel revenue. That looks a bad deal for Copthorne. How could he legally do that consonant with his duties as a director of Copthorne?

It's a valid question but you're confusing Scarborough Partnerships with Copthorne.
Scarborough Partnerships is McCabe's own company that he sold the hotel to for £1.
Millenium/Copthorne is the hotel company who manage but don't own the hotel.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Transfers of assets between group companies can be undertaken at no gain/no loss. This is a standard procedure. Group companies are effectively treated as one for Corporation Tax.

Lots of clubs have developed their grounds incorporating hotels etc as a means to raise finance and cash nothing new here.

I might be wrong but I don't think Scarborough Partnerships is part of the same group as SUFC.

How many clubs have built hotels to raise finance but ended up making a massive loss on them?

 

[Micalijo]

Bladesway, some of us, me included recognise the financial contribution the McCabe family have made to the club over the years. I am grateful for that. Yes, he may have made mistakes, but I can't believe this was by design or as part of some evil plan in mind to destroy the club. Why?

The company accounts which have been audited by Grant Thornton a well respected major accounting firm show how the owners of our club have lost over £24m in the last two years.

The fact that McCabe was born in Sheffield and is a local lad made good can only be a positive thing. Perish the thought that we would end by like Blackburn or Portsmouth. Owned by Indian chicken farmers, etc.

I just don't get it. Why do you Metal and Beighton continually carp on about the damage McCabe has done when without his resources we would be doomed.

Get with it, and don't call me any naughty names just because I oppose your negative view.

HH

Hey - Hartley, what about me??? Really offended me that has. Come on pal - I detest McCabe and what he has done to our beloved club. Cash obsessed, repulsive property speculator who nows zero about football - I love him.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

I thought the hotel was transferred to Scarborough Property? I would have thought that the argument would be that Scarborough trades in property and property management and therefore is better placed to make a success of the hotel than a football club.

Agreed. Therefore why didn't SUFC simply lease the land to a property company.
Thereby ensuring a steady regular income from the land without any of the risks involved?
As it is, we've lost the money invested, the land AND the regular income we could have had.

 

[Micalijo]

Fair enough. I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of the hotel shenanigans, but wouldn't whichever arm of the McCabe empire bought the hotel be obliged to pay the market rate for it? Wouldn't it be some kind of fraud if they didn't?

McCabe bought a company for £1. Jesus Chris - how many more times. The company was worthless because the property was worth less than the debt. McCabe used circa £4m of his/SUFC Ltd cash (ie Tevez wedge) to pay part of the mortgage off before he bought the shares for a £1. In other woprds, thje company he acquired had a propertyu where just about value equals borrowings - so shares worth £1.

 

[super_pig]

i wonder if the freehold on the land would cover his (supposed) 25 million outlay?
i don't think he's as daft/naive/unfortunate as some of you seem to think

 

[Balham]

Agreed. Therefore why didn't SUFC simply lease the land to a property company.
Thereby ensuring a steady regular income from the land without any of the risks involved?
As it is, we've lost the money invested, the land AND the regular income we could have had.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I genuinely believe that McCabe thought that this venture (and the office block, and the foreign clubs) would form part of SUFC's wide-ranging strategy and that this diversification would bring in millions while reducing the overall risk.

As we all know, none of the gambles even remotely came off (unless you count Central Coast Mariners taking Monty off us ) .

The outcome has been a case study in building without sorting out the foundations first. McCabe built on sand; sand which Robson ensured we sank into.

 

[Sothall_Blade]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I genuinely believe that McCabe thought that this venture (and the office block, and the foreign clubs) would form part of SUFC's wide-ranging strategy and that this diversification would bring in millions while reducing the overall risk.

As we all know, none of the gambles even remotely came off (unless you count Central Coast Mariners taking Monty off us ) .

The outcome has been a case study in building without sorting out the foundations first. McCabe built on sand; sand which Robson ensured we sank into.

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/keeping-it-in-the-family/3092768.article

(03/08/2007):- ‘We were a European company,’ McCabe tells Property Week. ‘OK, the UK has peaked, but Europe hasn’t, and Valad has bought a European company. Also, it has bought a business, not just a portfolio".

So is foresight. McCabe knew in August 2007 that the UK property market had peaked but he ploughed on gambling with United's future regardless.

I'm sure he genuinely believed that Robson would get us promoted but it doesn't make his appointment any less disastrous and that decision didn't require the benefit of hindsight either.

 

[alcoblade]

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/news/keeping-it-in-the-family/3092768.article

(03/08/2007):- ‘We were a European company,’ McCabe tells Property Week. ‘OK, the UK has peaked, but Europe hasn’t, and Valad has bought a European company. Also, it has bought a business, not just a portfolio".

So is foresight. McCabe knew in August 2007 that the UK property market had peaked but he ploughed on gambling with United's future regardless.

I'm sure he genuinely believed that Robson would get us promoted but it doesn't make his appointment any less disastrous and that decision didn't require the benefit of hindsight either.

But surely, the fortunes of the Hotel and Enterprise centre weren't linked directly to property prices? They were linked to the fortunes of the UK economy. At that point, everything looked good.

UTB

 

[Micalijo]

I thought the hotel was transferred to Scarborough Property? I would have thought that the argument would be that Scarborough trades in property and property management and therefore is better placed to make a success of the hotel than a football club.

As metalblade says, the hotel was a long term project but unfortunately SUFC plc was going to struggle to cover its short term losses. I believe that there is an option for SUFC to buy the hotel back "at market value" if that is a viable option in the future.

NB "market value" in 2010 was £15,000,001 (I think).

Hartley Hare hasn't the debt-for-equity swap already started?

BB (ACMA)

Balham, you do realise don't you that Hotel Ltd received a set fee per annum from Copthorne? The succes or otherwise of the hotel did not affect that income. The problem was the bank got wobbly about borrowings in a general climate of falling value of hotels,in places like Sheffield. So McCabe thoght he'd use 4m Tevez cash to reduce borrowings and buy the company for £1.

 

[Hartley Hare]

Hartley Hare hasn't the debt-for-equity swap already started?

BB (ACMA)

Yes, I think your right Balham. The June 2012 accounts include some commentary under the finance heading which explains how certain loans have been repaid, and an additional £8m of funds introduced to cover losses were converted into 10% Preference Shares.

The preference shares have been treated as equity (not as a debt). Which is the point you make.

The share capital was also reduced during the year and at the same time the share premium account was written off/down. These measures reduced the brought forward losses of circa £62m to £10m.

Net assets are only £1.3m for the group.

I would suspect that further preference or ordinary shares will be issued during this year as losses above 1.3m will move the balance sheet into the negative.

Mic, sorry I left you out of the list of doomsayers, carpers, and general anti-establishment mongers. An oversight on my part, as you are the Captain of that ship mate.

HH

 

[cooperblade]

Survey about the best and worst owners in British football

http://www.sportingintelligence.com...-and-worst-owners-in-english-football-311201/

 

[Grecian2000]

Survey about the best and worst owners in British football

http://www.sportingintelligence.com...-and-worst-owners-in-english-football-311201/

Wow, some of the stat lovers on this site will be off for a tug with all the stuff on there.

By my reckoning that leaves us somewhere between 45th to 64th in the best owner stakes. I wonder how many Blades had a crack at the survey. Zero to not many would be my estimate.

 

[Bladesway]

Bladesway, some of us, me included recognise the financial contribution the McCabe family have made to the club over the years. I am grateful for that. Yes, he may have made mistakes, but I can't believe this was by design or as part of some evil plan in mind to destroy the club. Why?

The company accounts which have been audited by Grant Thornton a well respected major accounting firm show how the owners of our club have lost over £24m in the last two years.

The fact that McCabe was born in Sheffield and is a local lad made good can only be a positive thing. Perish the thought that we would end by like Blackburn or Portsmouth. Owned by Indian chicken farmers, etc.

I just don't get it. Why do you Metal and Beighton continually carp on about the damage McCabe has done when without his resources we would be doomed.

Get with it, and don't call me any naughty names just because I oppose your negative view.

HH

Where am I calling you any naughty names out of interest?

Where we disagree is that I don't see the financial contribution KM has made. For every pound KM enterprises (in one form or another) have made it has been done with a view on KM enterprises recouping a profit from it. We didn't set up a club in China to benefit the first team of Sheffield United Football Club. Nor did we set one up in Belgium, Brazil, Australia, Hungary etc etc etc. Because if we did then surely one of those clubs would have benefitted us. We didn't take How High Dong on as a player because it was better for Sheffield United Football Club. It increased (supposedly) our exposure in China so that KM's ultimate holding company could make more profit. If it wasn't about property it was about exposure to new markets. Did anyone really think Sheffield United would be the club of choice for someone watching the EPL from afar? When you have the monsters of Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal etc etc in front of us?

Ultimately if Kevin McCabe had Sheffield United Football Club as his number one priority and interest he would have mantained his frugal blueprint that made us the envy of almost every club outside the Premiership. Well run, within our own limits and little to no unservicable debt. However, I argue that he got blinded by the lights, saw how he could make a fortune for himself (Europe in 5 years anyone?) and when we got booted out of the Premiership didn't know what the fuck to do. However, his personal fortune is locked away for his retirement, that I can guarantee you. The money he plays with is that of other people. Be it with SUFC, or some other PLC. Don't lets pretend good old uncle Kev digs into his pockets and doles out money to poor old SUFC. The great thing about being a director of a football club is the debt belongs to someone else and you can play around with someone elses money. If it makes a profit you can then pull a fat cheque out if you want to. Never do you play with your own cash.

As for getting on with it. I am, because there is nothing I can do about any of the above. But I refuse to blindly follow the great McCabe after some of the right royal bollocks he has dropped.

 

[Bladesway]

As an asides all the above, I hear Sheffield City council are mooting over the prospect of demolition for the DVS as they are desperate to offload in a cost cutting exercise. Now that would be a very good acquisition at a give away price for a local property developer. Pay £1m for DVS move the Blades there (not an ideal venue for football but fook the fans) and kerching re-develop the Bramall lane site and make£20m.

I bow at your alter of cynisism metal. Even I couldn't have dreamed that one up.

 

[metalblade]

I bow at your alter of cynisism metal. Even I couldn't have dreamed that one up.

Strange elsewhere the same scenario has been dreamt up .............................. just change McCabe for Mandaric

 

[TarquinDelouche]

As an asides all the above, I hear Sheffield City council are mooting over the prospect of demolition for the DVS as they are desperate to offload in a cost cutting exercise. Now that would be a very good acquisition at a give away price for a local property developer. Pay £1m for DVS move the Blades there (not an ideal venue for football but fook the fans) and kerching re-develop the Bramall lane site and make£20m.

He's no fool. He knows that people will go "Don Valley Stadium?? That's over 3miles from my home! I'm not going that far for home games!!" and attendances will plummet.