Lack of critical thinking regard the manager situation

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Feeling a bit deflated at recent developments I’ve withdrawn a bit from day to day happenings so not bang up to date. Surely the priority is for the Prince to find a new buyer as he seems to want out in the best interests of himself and the club. If recent weeks have taught us anything it’s the massive ( sorry) financial gap between the vast majority in the division and us and Hecky/Wilder whoever can’t change that
 

Sheffsteel said:
Think most people expected us to be in the bottom 3, they expected us to be better than Luton, who have spent less than us.
They expected us to lose many matches but like in previous seaons when we were relegated with Warnock and Wilder, they expect us to compete
have a fee attacks every now and then, create a fee chances and have a fee shots virtually every game,

I expected us to have a similar season we had under Warnock where we are in and around relegation all season.
My view we would either stay up orgs down based on the last match of the season.

Blades didn't expect us to have our biggest ever record defeat
They didn't expect us to be so bad, that we seriously threatren the Derby low points records.
They didn't expect the team to not compete and at times look like they're not even trying,

You say we've bought Championship players but no Championship team (not even Sheff Wed) would lose 8-0 at home to Newcastle.
The other promoted teams Burnley and Luton won't even loose 4-0 to Newcastle.
That game wasn't a case of they had 8 shots and it's was just one of the them days, where all 8 shots went in.
Newcastle could and maybe should've scored 10 or 11 goals, amazing really, would never ever have believed.

A manager can't control results but a manager can control tactics, substations and performance and also should be able to effect confidence and desire/ effort.
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That was just one of those days.

They happen from time to time, and I'm not one for knee jerk reactions.

Luton have won one game btw I'm pretty sure we'll win the odd one or two along the way as well, although we couldn't beat Luton in two attempts last season so it may not be against them.

If your players aren't good enough on the day it doesn't matter what tactics you instruct or how many substitutions you make you're still going to lose 9 times out of 10.

If there was any lack of effort/desire on that day it was from the players.

Maybe we could sack them if only we had some better players to come in.
 
Whatever the question is with Hecky I don't think the answer is Wilder. I would stick with him for now but he needs to try something different. Wilders problem in his last season was he played the same way every week and got the same results. Hecky at the moment is falling into the same trap. The obvious limitations on the squad are not mainly down to him but we are not really competing despite the apparent closeness of most of the results. We could have easily conceded more in every game but I cannot recall any real clear cut chances or opportunities we have missed. On balance an average 3-4 goal defeat would not have been unreasonable. He needs to try a different formation / tactics. We may end up with the same or even worse results but he will at least have tried something. Consistently repeating the same thing is not going to produce a different outcome.
 
Maidenhead said:
That was just one of those days.

They happen from time to time, and I'm not one for knee jerk reactions.

Luton have won one game btw I'm pretty sure we'll win the odd one or two along the way as well, although we couldn't beat Luton in two attempts last season so it may not be against them.

If your players aren't good enough on the day it doesn't matter what tactics you instruct or how many substitutions you make you're still going to lose 9 times out of 10.

If there was any lack of effort/desire on that day it was from the players.

Maybe we could sack them if only we had some better players to come in.
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Record club defeats happen roughly every 100 years or so....so how can it be a knee jerk reaction?
Also as said normally when a team loses 5 or 6 nil, it's usually one of them days when every shot goes in, it does happen.
However Newcastle had 22 shots with an amazing 15 shots on target, with decent finishing they could have won 10 or 11 nil.

Forget our or Luton's results, it's still too early to judge based on results. Focus on performances as their are normally an indicator of future results.
Luton's first 2 matches shows a massive gap in quality but since then they've competed well having a few shots and decent chances every match.
Looks like they are consistently just falling short and will likely be relegated but they are competitive and they will pick up points.

Regards lack of effort, it can happen for the odd match but can't happen for a series of matches
unless the players have little respect for the manager and the manager has lost the dressing room.
Obviously could be a confined or morale issue but again it's the manager job to resolve that too.

Does't work like that regards managers can't affect players. You only have to look at Warnock, goes to Rotherham and Huddersfield who were crap heading for relegation. However when he arrives the players almost instantly work 20% harder and have a clear team structure, they instantly become hard to beat and fairly quickly start picking up points.

Find it kind of bizarre that so many of our fans don't rate our team and have thrown the towel in.

I suppose the bottom line is

Pre season expectation with a dose of realism.....does this equal current performance levels?

I'd say 90% of fans feel we're currently underperforming however of course Hecky does have some excuses regards a lack of real pre-season.
but he's eventually been supported given the players he targeted. Think a factor that's changed which hasn't bee discussed is the onus on squad, not first 11.
So the owner has insured we have a decent first 11 that's capable of competing but around the 70 minute mark when teams make wholesale changes, then it does becomes like a league 1 side against a PL side. Altho we're even unconvincing in the 1st half of matches, when we're full strength.

Also it's not a normal situation, the club is up for sale, so there's more onus on the Prince to think short term instead of long term.
If we're very close to a club sale then the decision to sack Hecky is effected. May as well keep him and left the new owner sack him bringing in their own man.
Really don't think the Prince will spend money bringing in a decent manager, when he's not here for the long run and trying to keep financial commitments to a minimum.

The Princes only option is to offer the job to Wilder on a really low basic wage just for 8 months, with a £1 million bonus if he keeps us up.
Wilder might not take it because the contract is weighted in our favour, if he says no, then may as well keep Hecky and accept relegation.
The Prince might wait until it becomes embarrassing and we're on course to be the worse PL team ever, then surely the crowd will turn and call for his head.
Maybe that's the point we do another Kevin Blackwell, ask Wilder or Warnock, who know the job and players to slot in as caretaker until the end of the season.

Hopefully Hecky will turn it around. I'd allow him the Fulham game, the result doesn't matter so much, so won't judge/ criticise him if we lose, I'm looking for a Nottingham Forest type away performance (which should be the minimum) where we're half decent regards general looking threatening.

As I said, if Wilder won't accept a pretty crap (short term low paid with massive bonus) contract then I'd probably stick with Hecky until the crowd turn.
 
I think we will be relegated regardless of who’s the manager or if we spend 250m in January on a new team. We are probably a mid table championship team if we’re being honest. We have barely competed and it’s a damage limitation set up every game. Think the penny finally dropped on Saturday, especially in the away end. It’s horrible going into every game knowing the outcome before a ball is kicked. There is no identity to us and player’s currently don’t look arsed. Lose at Fulham and I think Hecky will be clearing his desk when he’s back.
 
Sheffsteel said:
Agree Mark Robins is a reasonable alternative.
Very experienced, know the Championship really well, knows Hamer and has Coventry playing decent football.
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The alternate viewpoint might say he is a mardy arsed Manc, who has walked out of a couple of jobs and that most of his managerial career has been at League One or lower.
 
Nicesheffielder said:
Mark Robins done wonders with nowt and been pissed about,re no having a home ground several times
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It only there was manager who has took a team through the leagues then took them one step further and did well in the Prem


Hmmmmmmmm
 
I should coco said:
The alternate viewpoint might say he is a mardy arsed Manc, who has walked out of a couple of jobs and that most of his managerial career has been at League One or lower.
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Mentioned this earlier and it wouldn't surprise me if it's a really significant factor.

The Prince wants out and you would expect him to sell the club sometime this season.
So he can't be that bothered about our long term, he's only focussing on the short term and staying up
but he doenst want to spend any money, especially not financially commitment.

So regards a replacement his preference is to offer cheap wages, give out a 1 season contract
and tell the new man they can't bring in any backroom staff and must work with McCall and Lester.
This happened when we sacked Robson, we rang Blackwell (knowing he was desperate) and asked him if he fancied a 1 year low paid, on trial, 1 year contract.

Blackie accepted, so which manager now would even consider accepting such a crap contract?
Of course you would expect the Prince to insert a bonus clause "prevent relegation and you receive a £1 or £2 million bonus", whatever..
Only an out of work manager with nothing to lose, little chance of finding another job would accept those terms.

Can only think of Alludyce or Wilder, or anyone else who used to be good but is now on the scrap heap. Think Allydyce would say no and want too much, not sure about Wilder, he might say yes, depends on his other options. If we can't bring in someone with PL experience who isn't prepared to accept a 1 year cheap contract then the owner might have no choice but to stick with Hecky until it turns toxic.

For all we know the Prince might be very close to a sale (wishful thinking), the new people might be ambitious and have big ideas (wishful thinking again).
So they instantly sack Hecky, which would be accepted if we're still struggling,
then they pay loads of money for someone like Graham Potter or a big name (like a Wayne Rooney), a rising young talent or more likely a top class foreign manager.
 
Sheffsteel said:
Record club defeats happen roughly every 100 years or so....so how can it be a knee jerk reaction?
Also as said normally when a team loses 5 or 6 nil, it's usually one of them days when every shot goes in, it does happen.
However Newcastle had 22 shots with an amazing 15 shots on target, with decent finishing they could have won 10 or 11 nil.

Forget our or Luton's results, it's still too early to judge based on results. Focus on performances as their are normally an indicator of future results.
Luton's first 2 matches shows a massive gap in quality but since then they've competed well having a few shots and decent chances every match.
Looks like they are consistently just falling short and will likely be relegated but they are competitive and they will pick up points.

Regards lack of effort, it can happen for the odd match but can't happen for a series of matches
unless the players have little respect for the manager and the manager has lost the dressing room.
Obviously could be a confined or morale issue but again it's the manager job to resolve that too.

Does't work like that regards managers can't affect players. You only have to look at Warnock, goes to Rotherham and Huddersfield who were crap heading for relegation. However when he arrives the players almost instantly work 20% harder and have a clear team structure, they instantly become hard to beat and fairly quickly start picking up points.

Find it kind of bizarre that so many of our fans don't rate our team and have thrown the towel in.

I suppose the bottom line is

Pre season expectation with a dose of realism.....does this equal current performance levels?

I'd say 90% of fans feel we're currently underperforming however of course Hecky does have some excuses regards a lack of real pre-season.
but he's eventually been supported given the players he targeted. Think a factor that's changed which hasn't bee discussed is the onus on squad, not first 11.
So the owner has insured we have a decent first 11 that's capable of competing but around the 70 minute mark when teams make wholesale changes, then it does becomes like a league 1 side against a PL side. Altho we're even unconvincing in the 1st half of matches, when we're full strength.

Also it's not a normal situation, the club is up for sale, so there's more onus on the Prince to think short term instead of long term.
If we're very close to a club sale then the decision to sack Hecky is effected. May as well keep him and left the new owner sack him bringing in their own man.
Really don't think the Prince will spend money bringing in a decent manager, when he's not here for the long run and trying to keep financial commitments to a minimum.

The Princes only option is to offer the job to Wilder on a really low basic wage just for 8 months, with a £1 million bonus if he keeps us up.
Wilder might not take it because the contract is weighted in our favour, if he says no, then may as well keep Hecky and accept relegation.
The Prince might wait until it becomes embarrassing and we're on course to be the worse PL team ever, then surely the crowd will turn and call for his head.
Maybe that's the point we do another Kevin Blackwell, ask Wilder or Warnock, who know the job and players to slot in as caretaker until the end of the season.

Hopefully Hecky will turn it around. I'd allow him the Fulham game, the result doesn't matter so much, so won't judge/ criticise him if we lose, I'm looking for a Nottingham Forest type away performance (which should be the minimum) where we're half decent regards general looking threatening.

As I said, if Wilder won't accept a pretty crap (short term low paid with massive bonus) contract then I'd probably stick with Hecky until the crowd turn.
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No blade I know wants Wilder, Hecky still plenty of credit…
 
I don't see a promotion for Hecky with this side. Last season he had Ndiaye, who won us games single handedly.
We have no style of play or 'culture'.

That's my worry.
 

The team has no strength.

Every game it seems it’s men against boys. Look when Traore plays. He looks about 12.

When we have the ball we pushed off it. Off the ball the opposition glides through us.

We also still seem to panic on the ball and our passing is terrible.

Wilders team seemed to be a bit more composed and went for it with some great play.
Heckys team is what I describe above.

I suppose on that Wilder is a better option but that last season of his was strange to say the least.

With all the above I’d say if a Hecky went and a new manager came in we’d need someone to give the team some real confidence and composure and get a couple of sizeable players for CD and CM.

With all the above above above in truth as much as I hate seeing us losing and looking pretty poor I expected it and would just be happy to see us pick a win or two this season. Next season in the Championship at least we can cheer a fair few wins.
 
Nice analysis Sheffsteel . Couple of points to temper it though: Luton's xG benefits from them receiving two penalties in their six games so far. Understat is blocked at work so I used Flashscore for my analysis but the themes are similar: our non-penalty xG per game is 0.70, Luton's 0.92 and Burnley's 0.80.

Separately, I'm not sure you can use the shots metric. We allowed Spurs (according to Flashscore) 28 shots but those amounted to 1.68 xG. That tells me that Spurs were getting increasingly desperate as the game went on at 0-0 and then 0-1. In fact, looking at xG per shot against (excluding penalties) we're actually better than either of the other two sides (SU 0.09 vs LT 0.12 and B 0.12) which suggests that we're frustrating teams into taking a lot of pot shots.

Don't get me wrong, we're not doing well at all this season but neither are those other teams. Burnley are particularly porous (conceding 2.5 goals per game); Luton appear to be targeting specific games and sometimes getting the rub of the green (Wolves down to 10 at 39 minutes, really soft penalty awarded for the equaliser; Everton smash and grab).

I also wonder whether retaining the spine of the team which got relegated so humiliatingly in 2020/21 is having an impact. An interesting one for the sports psychologists: Burnley effectively have a completely new team since they went down in 2021/22 and Luton have no top flight experience (good or bad).
 
Sheffsteel said:
There's been plenty of discussion regards whether we should keep Hecky, go for an easy replacement like Wilder or risk an outsider.

However I'm finding more and more how, where there's differences of opinion, it becomes almost impossible to rationally have a discussion.
Jimmy (form the Bladesramble YouTube channel) mentioned this week, that his opinion is to replace Hecky with Wilder if we lose to West Ham
and instead of receiving counter arguments, he's just received out and out abuse over social media for preferring Wilder.

Noticed in recent years, more and more, if you disagree with someone, instead of having a rational/ logical debate the fashion is to at best be sarcastic or at worse abuse or even threaten the poster who dares have a different opinion. Not sure whether the blame lies with social media, the newspapers, even programmes and news on TV who have encouraged division, exaggeration and controversial (wind up) opinions. An outrageous/ disrespectful reaction does seem to attract more views, more clicks, more likes = more money, however society as a whole seem to be influenced by it so everything becomes divisive.

There's this necessity to put a label on someone, put them in a box.
So it's a straight choice of, are you in the Pro Chris Wilder gang, the Pro Hecky gang or you a bit odd and prefer someone else?

Then once you choose your gang, it weirdly it becomes part of your identity, it's becomes an emotional bond and you're not allowed to change or be disloyal. It's the same with Brexit/ EU, vax/ anti vax, pro Donald Trump/ anti Trump, pro Ched/ anti Ched, pro global warming/ global warning conspiracy.....instead of appreciating nuance and considering or even agreeing points on both sides of the argument, people have this necessity to put you in a box, then you are either on their side and against them, so deserve abuse.

On social media I've seen comments like
"The media are trying to bully SUFC and Hecky into appointing Wilder, well in my view Hecky can lose every remaining match, we still want him here all season" and
"That Wilder bloke is a nasty traitor, he left us for a big pay off, he's an old has been, so don't want him anywhere near our club"
"We just lost 8-0, so obviously Hecky is rubbish....Hecky out"
"If we lose to West Ham today then that's it....Hecky should be gone"

Is anyone able to look at the bigger picture, consider the pro's and con's of Hecky and Wilder and accept there are nuances regards a decision for the owner.
Also in order to make the correct decision, it's important to de-personalise it. Shouldn't make any difference if you personally like/ dislike Hecky or like Wilder.
I'm more bothered about Sheff United than either Hecky or Wilder, who are both just servants to the club, it's nothing personal.

Always say one-off results can't be controlled, so when we win I can sometimes be concerned and be negative where as if we play really well but lose...I'm generally optimistic however tactics/ substitutions/ performances and effort given by the players can be controlled by the manager and this is what we should judge.
Also performances, tactics, structure are generally an indicator of future results. So let's have a look at some facts relating to performance.

H Palace Our possession 32% shots 8 with 1 on target, corners 5 Palace possession 68% shots 24 with 8 on target, corners 5
A Forest Our possession 50% shots 7 with 3 on target, corners 7 Forest possession 50% shots 16 with 4 on target, corners 6
H Man C Our possession 20% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 1 Man City possession 80%, shots 30 with 9 on target, corners 12
H Everton Our possession 45% shots 13 with 8 on target, corners 4 Everton possession 55%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 6
A Spurs Our possession 30% shots 7 with 5 on target, corners 2 Spurs possession 70%, shots 28 and 10 on target, corners 15
H Newcastle possession 42% shots 9 with 1 on target, corners 2 Newcastle possession 58%, shots 22 with 15 on target, corners 6
A West Ham possession 47%, shots 16 with 2 on target, corners 4 West Ham possession 53%, shots 20 and 9 on target, corners

If you take an average of those matches
Sheff United possession averages 38%, shots 9 with 3 shots on target
Opposition possession averages 72%, shots 22 with 9 shots on target

Looking at those facts, can understand someone might say we were unlucky to lose in the last minutes against Man City and Spurs but the stats show we were totally outclassed. Our 3 shots on target per game is really poor. Also the opposition having 9 shots on target every single game is shockingly bad, could be argued we've been lucky to only lose by 1 goal in most matches.

Pro's regards Hecky
1: Achieved promotion as recently as last season, so deserve some loyalty and respect.
Although this isn't the fantastic/ unbelievable achievement some suggest because he had one of the best, most expensively assembled squads in the league so it was a good achievement.
2: Has a a calm, mild mannered personality, visually seems to be able to handle pressure, no controversy with the media , tends not to be salty and complain all the time like a Warnock.
3: Generally popular and well liked amongst the fanbase, this is important because fan harmony/ disharmony can affect results and effect the clubs future.
4: Has a great record in the Academy developing youngsters
5: He has a popular. likeable backroom staff on Stuart McCall and Jack Lester, you would imagine these SUFC people would have to leave if we replaced Hecky.

Negative regards Hecky
1: The style of play last season was often unconvincing, it was more pragmatic, keeping things tight, relying on a piece of magic from N'Diaye or McAtee, then sitting back last 20 minutes hanging on, which to be fair we did fairly comfortably. The defence was always under pressure and overworked but our goalie usually had little to do.,
2: Inconsistency in style of play and tactics, in many matches we did have 15 minute spells of playing some really good quick passing possession football, where we looked a top two team but then in the same game we had 20 minute spells, usually towards the end where, alarmingly, we couldn't bring 3 passes together and we were just booting out the ball into row Z.
3: Is he too nice? Never seems to criticise the team or any player in public. This could be a positive but looks like the players aren't giving him 100%.
Maybe he needs to come down like a ton of bricks to motivate certain individuals.
4: His media profile is very low, which in the PL world is important. Noticed that when we had Wilder we received loads of attention on Talksport radio.
Where as this season we've hardly received any attention, it's as though we don't exist. This is because the media aren't interested in Hecky as he gives them nothing.
Where as Wilder was always worth a rant and an interesting or controversial quote.

My view is that we should TRY to remain loyal to Hecky because he deserves it.
Even though we were promoted last season did anyone notice how opposition fans consistently said we are an average team and only won because of N'Diaye, taking off my red and white glasses, I could see their point, however last season we had to be promoted at any cost, so Hecky wisely took the pragmatic approach of finding a formula to grind out unconvincing wins, due to our fragile finances the performances were irrelevant.

I've heard people say....."we don't want to be in the Premier League....we don't belong here and would prefer the Championship it's real football there"
or "we've no chance of staying in the PL...so should keep Hecky to develop us in the Championship"

Not sure I go with "let's just give up" mentality. Think the players are good enough to give these PL teams a much better more competitive game.
Also no owner is going to just accept relegation, it's obvious they are going to hold a manager as accountable and will swap at some stage.

Regards Wilder
It's a controversial one because the positives are very strong, stronger than Hecky's positives, he's proven he can perform miracles in making below average players challenge for a Champions League position, so I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if we starting moving up the table with Wilder.
However Wilders negatives are also very strong, again stronger than Heck's negatives, so if we continue to lose it could turn toxic and this wouldn't be a massive surprise either.

So I do have reservations about Wilder but logically speaking if things don't perk up soon, then we have little to lose in taking a risk with Wilder.
Alternatively we could bring in someone else and tell them they are here for the long term to bring us back up from the Championship, like a Graham Potter type.
If we are relegated with Potter, the fans will still be in side to mount a promotion push where if we're relegated with Wilder, think half the fanbase will want him sacked.

Hecky at the club is like the fire is close to going out with a few burning embers,
If Wider joins, it makes big news in the media as it's an interesting story for the neutral, it would be like throwing a barrel of paraffin on the fire.
Really confident he would provide a massive shot in the arm of the club and the players but it could be short lived and things gradually return back to the burning mbers.

Who knows?
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Yes, I hope the owners take your lead and do a pros and cons list regarding Hecky’s future…But sadly, nobody can make the same list to seal their fate.
 
I have to admire the Prince in regards to there isn’t a knee jerk reaction. After the 8-0 a lot wanted him out and he kept his cool.

Few more performances and he’s still kept it.

I think he’s planning his options carefully weighing up everything.

I beleive that ends with Wilder coming back but I am open to others as well.
 
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