Lack of critical thinking regard the manager situation

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Sheffsteel said:
There's been plenty of discussion regards whether we should keep Hecky, go for an easy replacement like Wilder or risk an outsider.

However I'm finding more and more how, where there's differences of opinion, it becomes almost impossible to rationally have a discussion.
Jimmy (form the Bladesramble YouTube channel) mentioned this week, that his opinion is to replace Hecky with Wilder if we lose to West Ham
and instead of receiving counter arguments, he's just received out and out abuse over social media for preferring Wilder.

Noticed in recent years, more and more, if you disagree with someone, instead of having a rational/ logical debate the fashion is to at best be sarcastic or at worse abuse or even threaten the poster who dares have a different opinion. Not sure whether the blame lies with social media, the newspapers, even programmes and news on TV who have encouraged division, exaggeration and controversial (wind up) opinions. An outrageous/ disrespectful reaction does seem to attract more views, more clicks, more likes = more money, however society as a whole seem to be influenced by it so everything becomes divisive.

There's this necessity to put a label on someone, put them in a box.
So it's a straight choice of, are you in the Pro Chris Wilder gang, the Pro Hecky gang or you a bit odd and prefer someone else?

Then once you choose your gang, it weirdly it becomes part of your identity, it's becomes an emotional bond and you're not allowed to change or be disloyal. It's the same with Brexit/ EU, vax/ anti vax, pro Donald Trump/ anti Trump, pro Ched/ anti Ched, pro global warming/ global warning conspiracy.....instead of appreciating nuance and considering or even agreeing points on both sides of the argument, people have this necessity to put you in a box, then you are either on their side and against them, so deserve abuse.

On social media I've seen comments like
"The media are trying to bully SUFC and Hecky into appointing Wilder, well in my view Hecky can lose every remaining match, we still want him here all season" and
"That Wilder bloke is a nasty traitor, he left us for a big pay off, he's an old has been, so don't want him anywhere near our club"
"We just lost 8-0, so obviously Hecky is rubbish....Hecky out"
"If we lose to West Ham today then that's it....Hecky should be gone"

Is anyone able to look at the bigger picture, consider the pro's and con's of Hecky and Wilder and accept there are nuances regards a decision for the owner.
Also in order to make the correct decision, it's important to de-personalise it. Shouldn't make any difference if you personally like/ dislike Hecky or like Wilder.
I'm more bothered about Sheff United than either Hecky or Wilder, who are both just servants to the club, it's nothing personal.

Always say one-off results can't be controlled, so when we win I can sometimes be concerned and be negative where as if we play really well but lose...I'm generally optimistic however tactics/ substitutions/ performances and effort given by the players can be controlled by the manager and this is what we should judge.
Also performances, tactics, structure are generally an indicator of future results. So let's have a look at some facts relating to performance.

H Palace Our possession 32% shots 8 with 1 on target, corners 5 Palace possession 68% shots 24 with 8 on target, corners 5
A Forest Our possession 50% shots 7 with 3 on target, corners 7 Forest possession 50% shots 16 with 4 on target, corners 6
H Man C Our possession 20% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 1 Man City possession 80%, shots 30 with 9 on target, corners 12
H Everton Our possession 45% shots 13 with 8 on target, corners 4 Everton possession 55%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 6
A Spurs Our possession 30% shots 7 with 5 on target, corners 2 Spurs possession 70%, shots 28 and 10 on target, corners 15
H Newcastle possession 42% shots 9 with 1 on target, corners 2 Newcastle possession 58%, shots 22 with 15 on target, corners 6
A West Ham possession 47%, shots 16 with 2 on target, corners 4 West Ham possession 53%, shots 20 and 9 on target, corners

If you take an average of those matches
Sheff United possession averages 38%, shots 9 with 3 shots on target
Opposition possession averages 72%, shots 22 with 9 shots on target

Looking at those facts, can understand someone might say we were unlucky to lose in the last minutes against Man City and Spurs but the stats show we were totally outclassed. Our 3 shots on target per game is really poor. Also the opposition having 9 shots on target every single game is shockingly bad, could be argued we've been lucky to only lose by 1 goal in most matches.

Pro's regards Hecky
1: Achieved promotion as recently as last season, so deserve some loyalty and respect.
Although this isn't the fantastic/ unbelievable achievement some suggest because he had one of the best, most expensively assembled squads in the league so it was a good achievement.
2: Has a a calm, mild mannered personality, visually seems to be able to handle pressure, no controversy with the media , tends not to be salty and complain all the time like a Warnock.
3: Generally popular and well liked amongst the fanbase, this is important because fan harmony/ disharmony can affect results and effect the clubs future.
4: Has a great record in the Academy developing youngsters
5: He has a popular. likeable backroom staff on Stuart McCall and Jack Lester, you would imagine these SUFC people would have to leave if we replaced Hecky.

Negative regards Hecky
1: The style of play last season was often unconvincing, it was more pragmatic, keeping things tight, relying on a piece of magic from N'Diaye or McAtee, then sitting back last 20 minutes hanging on, which to be fair we did fairly comfortably. The defence was always under pressure and overworked but our goalie usually had little to do.,
2: Inconsistency in style of play and tactics, in many matches we did have 15 minute spells of playing some really good quick passing possession football, where we looked a top two team but then in the same game we had 20 minute spells, usually towards the end where, alarmingly, we couldn't bring 3 passes together and we were just booting out the ball into row Z.
3: Is he too nice? Never seems to criticise the team or any player in public. This could be a positive but looks like the players aren't giving him 100%.
Maybe he needs to come down like a ton of bricks to motivate certain individuals.
4: His media profile is very low, which in the PL world is important. Noticed that when we had Wilder we received loads of attention on Talksport radio.
Where as this season we've hardly received any attention, it's as though we don't exist. This is because the media aren't interested in Hecky as he gives them nothing.
Where as Wilder was always worth a rant and an interesting or controversial quote.

My view is that we should TRY to remain loyal to Hecky because he deserves it.
Even though we were promoted last season did anyone notice how opposition fans consistently said we are an average team and only won because of N'Diaye, taking off my red and white glasses, I could see their point, however last season we had to be promoted at any cost, so Hecky wisely took the pragmatic approach of finding a formula to grind out unconvincing wins, due to our fragile finances the performances were irrelevant.

I've heard people say....."we don't want to be in the Premier League....we don't belong here and would prefer the Championship it's real football there"
or "we've no chance of staying in the PL...so should keep Hecky to develop us in the Championship"

Not sure I go with "let's just give up" mentality. Think the players are good enough to give these PL teams a much better more competitive game.
Also no owner is going to just accept relegation, it's obvious they are going to hold a manager as accountable and will swap at some stage.

Regards Wilder
It's a controversial one because the positives are very strong, stronger than Hecky's positives, he's proven he can perform miracles in making below average players challenge for a Champions League position, so I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if we starting moving up the table with Wilder.
However Wilders negatives are also very strong, again stronger than Heck's negatives, so if we continue to lose it could turn toxic and this wouldn't be a massive surprise either.

So I do have reservations about Wilder but logically speaking if things don't perk up soon, then we have little to lose in taking a risk with Wilder.
Alternatively we could bring in someone else and tell them they are here for the long term to bring us back up from the Championship, like a Graham Potter type.
If we are relegated with Potter, the fans will still be in side to mount a promotion push where if we're relegated with Wilder, think half the fanbase will want him sacked.

Hecky at the club is like the fire is close to going out with a few burning embers,
If Wider joins, it makes big news in the media as it's an interesting story for the neutral, it would be like throwing a barrel of paraffin on the fire.
Really confident he would provide a massive shot in the arm of the club and the players but it could be short lived and things gradually return back to the burning mbers.

Who knows?
Click to expand...
Long winded way of nailing your colours to Hecky out.
 

Sheffsteel said:
There's been plenty of discussion regards whether we should keep Hecky, go for an easy replacement like Wilder or risk an outsider.

However I'm finding more and more how, where there's differences of opinion, it becomes almost impossible to rationally have a discussion.
Jimmy (form the Bladesramble YouTube channel) mentioned this week, that his opinion is to replace Hecky with Wilder if we lose to West Ham
and instead of receiving counter arguments, he's just received out and out abuse over social media for preferring Wilder.

Noticed in recent years, more and more, if you disagree with someone, instead of having a rational/ logical debate the fashion is to at best be sarcastic or at worse abuse or even threaten the poster who dares have a different opinion. Not sure whether the blame lies with social media, the newspapers, even programmes and news on TV who have encouraged division, exaggeration and controversial (wind up) opinions. An outrageous/ disrespectful reaction does seem to attract more views, more clicks, more likes = more money, however society as a whole seem to be influenced by it so everything becomes divisive.

There's this necessity to put a label on someone, put them in a box.
So it's a straight choice of, are you in the Pro Chris Wilder gang, the Pro Hecky gang or you a bit odd and prefer someone else?

Then once you choose your gang, it weirdly it becomes part of your identity, it's becomes an emotional bond and you're not allowed to change or be disloyal. It's the same with Brexit/ EU, vax/ anti vax, pro Donald Trump/ anti Trump, pro Ched/ anti Ched, pro global warming/ global warning conspiracy.....instead of appreciating nuance and considering or even agreeing points on both sides of the argument, people have this necessity to put you in a box, then you are either on their side and against them, so deserve abuse.

On social media I've seen comments like
"The media are trying to bully SUFC and Hecky into appointing Wilder, well in my view Hecky can lose every remaining match, we still want him here all season" and
"That Wilder bloke is a nasty traitor, he left us for a big pay off, he's an old has been, so don't want him anywhere near our club"
"We just lost 8-0, so obviously Hecky is rubbish....Hecky out"
"If we lose to West Ham today then that's it....Hecky should be gone"

Is anyone able to look at the bigger picture, consider the pro's and con's of Hecky and Wilder and accept there are nuances regards a decision for the owner.
Also in order to make the correct decision, it's important to de-personalise it. Shouldn't make any difference if you personally like/ dislike Hecky or like Wilder.
I'm more bothered about Sheff United than either Hecky or Wilder, who are both just servants to the club, it's nothing personal.

Always say one-off results can't be controlled, so when we win I can sometimes be concerned and be negative where as if we play really well but lose...I'm generally optimistic however tactics/ substitutions/ performances and effort given by the players can be controlled by the manager and this is what we should judge.
Also performances, tactics, structure are generally an indicator of future results. So let's have a look at some facts relating to performance.

H Palace Our possession 32% shots 8 with 1 on target, corners 5 Palace possession 68% shots 24 with 8 on target, corners 5
A Forest Our possession 50% shots 7 with 3 on target, corners 7 Forest possession 50% shots 16 with 4 on target, corners 6
H Man C Our possession 20% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 1 Man City possession 80%, shots 30 with 9 on target, corners 12
H Everton Our possession 45% shots 13 with 8 on target, corners 4 Everton possession 55%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 6
A Spurs Our possession 30% shots 7 with 5 on target, corners 2 Spurs possession 70%, shots 28 and 10 on target, corners 15
H Newcastle possession 42% shots 9 with 1 on target, corners 2 Newcastle possession 58%, shots 22 with 15 on target, corners 6
A West Ham possession 47%, shots 16 with 2 on target, corners 4 West Ham possession 53%, shots 20 and 9 on target, corners

If you take an average of those matches
Sheff United possession averages 38%, shots 9 with 3 shots on target
Opposition possession averages 72%, shots 22 with 9 shots on target

Looking at those facts, can understand someone might say we were unlucky to lose in the last minutes against Man City and Spurs but the stats show we were totally outclassed. Our 3 shots on target per game is really poor. Also the opposition having 9 shots on target every single game is shockingly bad, could be argued we've been lucky to only lose by 1 goal in most matches.

Pro's regards Hecky
1: Achieved promotion as recently as last season, so deserve some loyalty and respect.
Although this isn't the fantastic/ unbelievable achievement some suggest because he had one of the best, most expensively assembled squads in the league so it was a good achievement.
2: Has a a calm, mild mannered personality, visually seems to be able to handle pressure, no controversy with the media , tends not to be salty and complain all the time like a Warnock.
3: Generally popular and well liked amongst the fanbase, this is important because fan harmony/ disharmony can affect results and effect the clubs future.
4: Has a great record in the Academy developing youngsters
5: He has a popular. likeable backroom staff on Stuart McCall and Jack Lester, you would imagine these SUFC people would have to leave if we replaced Hecky.

Negative regards Hecky
1: The style of play last season was often unconvincing, it was more pragmatic, keeping things tight, relying on a piece of magic from N'Diaye or McAtee, then sitting back last 20 minutes hanging on, which to be fair we did fairly comfortably. The defence was always under pressure and overworked but our goalie usually had little to do.,
2: Inconsistency in style of play and tactics, in many matches we did have 15 minute spells of playing some really good quick passing possession football, where we looked a top two team but then in the same game we had 20 minute spells, usually towards the end where, alarmingly, we couldn't bring 3 passes together and we were just booting out the ball into row Z.
3: Is he too nice? Never seems to criticise the team or any player in public. This could be a positive but looks like the players aren't giving him 100%.
Maybe he needs to come down like a ton of bricks to motivate certain individuals.
4: His media profile is very low, which in the PL world is important. Noticed that when we had Wilder we received loads of attention on Talksport radio.
Where as this season we've hardly received any attention, it's as though we don't exist. This is because the media aren't interested in Hecky as he gives them nothing.
Where as Wilder was always worth a rant and an interesting or controversial quote.

My view is that we should TRY to remain loyal to Hecky because he deserves it.
Even though we were promoted last season did anyone notice how opposition fans consistently said we are an average team and only won because of N'Diaye, taking off my red and white glasses, I could see their point, however last season we had to be promoted at any cost, so Hecky wisely took the pragmatic approach of finding a formula to grind out unconvincing wins, due to our fragile finances the performances were irrelevant.

I've heard people say....."we don't want to be in the Premier League....we don't belong here and would prefer the Championship it's real football there"
or "we've no chance of staying in the PL...so should keep Hecky to develop us in the Championship"

Not sure I go with "let's just give up" mentality. Think the players are good enough to give these PL teams a much better more competitive game.
Also no owner is going to just accept relegation, it's obvious they are going to hold a manager as accountable and will swap at some stage.

Regards Wilder
It's a controversial one because the positives are very strong, stronger than Hecky's positives, he's proven he can perform miracles in making below average players challenge for a Champions League position, so I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if we starting moving up the table with Wilder.
However Wilders negatives are also very strong, again stronger than Heck's negatives, so if we continue to lose it could turn toxic and this wouldn't be a massive surprise either.

So I do have reservations about Wilder but logically speaking if things don't perk up soon, then we have little to lose in taking a risk with Wilder.
Alternatively we could bring in someone else and tell them they are here for the long term to bring us back up from the Championship, like a Graham Potter type.
If we are relegated with Potter, the fans will still be in side to mount a promotion push where if we're relegated with Wilder, think half the fanbase will want him sacked.

Hecky at the club is like the fire is close to going out with a few burning embers,
If Wider joins, it makes big news in the media as it's an interesting story for the neutral, it would be like throwing a barrel of paraffin on the fire.
Really confident he would provide a massive shot in the arm of the club and the players but it could be short lived and things gradually return back to the burning mbers.

Who knows?
Click to expand...
Well written and a bit more detailed to my reply last night on another thread

Its a hard one ... we had a transfer embargo when we got promoted so we knew this season was going to be hard even when we could spend we sold our best 2 players.
Did I think we would stay up - nope ... so I am not shocked by this season at all. We have 1 more point than I thought we would have at this time of the season .......... but saying that, he is miles away from being a PL manager and we may end up with a lower points total than Derby and that would be a disaster.
What would b the alternatives?
Wilder? - nope never really worked for Bassett when he came back
Giggs ? - he is desperate for a new job ........ but he will want £100m to spend on ex Man U players or Welsh players
Warnock? He will at least get us past 11 points ... but someone nearly 80??

In summary keep him and let him walk away before his MH is crushed.
 
Tough to see Hecky go but I don't see how he can change it, we can't continue down this same path. The team needs a huge lift from somewhere.
 
ghandi said:
Long winded way of nailing your colours to Hecky out.
Click to expand...

Short answer YES, reluctantly it's heading that way.
I'd give him the Fulham game then see where we are, look at the options.
If the options aren't up to much or are too expensive, then I'd keep Hecky until the timing is better, other managers will become available.
The Prince is in a funny situation, if he's hoping to sell, he doesnt want to tie the new owner to financial commitments
besides a lot of new owners like to bring in a new manager asap, so the Prince might just let things ride.

Also it's not untenable for Hecky yet and he does generally have support of the fanbase, which is a big positive.

I hear comments about how the PL has massively improved since the last time we were here
and the gap between the PL and Championship has never been bigger, might be true, looks that way in our matches. We did look like an average league 1 side when playing Palace, Man City and Newcastle. Hecky says we could have got more points, true but we could have lost 4-0 in all these games too. We might have edged the chances against Everton but they looked a level above us, better passing, composure and steam structure, draw was a fair result.

I suppose a good way to prove the above is to compare how Burnley and Luton are coping compared to us.
Not neccesarily in their results but in their performances, Burnley and Luton are also losing but are they competing?
Do their matches look like 2 closely matched teams playing each other from the same league or is there a gulf in quality?
I recently saw the 1-1 draw between Forest and Burnley and based on overall play Burnley looked slightly the more accomplished higher quality team.
 
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United aren't the greatest team the world have ever seen. But we still sing it. Applying critical thinking to football? No thanks. It's where I direct all my emotional outbursts. I don't need to be right, it doesn't matter
 
This issue has arisen because the Prince in a clumsy type of way chose to mention Wilder in a favouable light.

It's led to confrontation. Blade v. Blade.

The OP has brought politics into the argument - this is a tactic adopted by politicians. It leads to Divide and Rule.
I cannot understand the reasoning behind the Prince's comments. Surely he's not happy with this Divide and Rule unless it's taking pressure off him.

It's chaotic and not helpful.

If Hecky leaves then he'll be mote than happy working in football somewhere. As long as it's with players. One of his strengths is developing young players.

He truly believes that the youth set-up at the Lane is a major part of the overall development of the club. He's sincerely shown faith in the youngsters. A real football man.

Wilder is a little different. He left us and wanted to get back into the top role. He failed at MIddlesbrough and Watford. That's the most important part of his CV. Not what he did with us 2016 - 2021. He is a recent failure.

As far as youth is concerned, one game sticks in my mind. January 2nd 2021 away at Crystal Palace. Two days in to the transfer window. On the bench was 16 year old Antwoine Hackford.
Was this Wilder showing faith in the Blades youth system?

My 'old fart cynical point of view' was Wilder trying to show the Prince that if he didn't put his hands in his pocket then this is what we'll be relying upon.

Disrespect to the travelling fans and possibly disrespect to young Hackford.

Thanks for the memories Chris but I think we've all moved on.
 
As mentioned earlier there is a way to compare whether we've gone forward since last season or gone backward.

Some use the excuse that compared to 4 years ago the standard has massively improved, so now there's a massive gap between the PL and Championship.
This suggests most promoted clubs can't get anywhere near competing, so let's compare our in-game stats to Burnley and Luton.
Over the season you would expect Burnley stats to be slightly better than ours and Luton slightly worse.

United
H Palace possession 32% shots 8 with 1 on target, corners 5 XG 0.42 Palace possession 68% shots 24 with 8 on target, corners 5 XG 2.28
A Forest possession 50% shots 7 with 3 on target, corners 7 XG 0.37 Forest possession 50% shots 16 with 4 on target, corners 6 XG 1.37
H Man C possession 20% shots 6 with 2 on target, corners 1 XG 0.76 Man City possession 80%, shots 30 with 9 on target, corners 12 XG 3.85
H Everton possession 45% shots 13 with 8 on target, corners 4 XG 1.57 Everton possession 55%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 6 XG 2.74
A Spurs possession 30% shots 7 with 5 on target, corners 2 XG 0.79 Spurs possession 70%, shots 28 and 10 on target, corners 15 XG 2.16
H Newcastle possession 42% shots 9 with 1 on target, corners2 XG 0.58 Newcastle possession 58%, shots 22 with 15 on target, corners 6 XG 5.11
A West Ham possession 47%, shots 16 with 2 on target, corners 4 XG 0.91 West Ham possession 53%, shots 20 and 9 on target, corners 7 XG 3.2

Burnley
H Man City possession 34%, shots 6 with 1 on target, corners 6 XG 0.31 Man City possession 66%, shots 17 with 8 on target, corners 5 XG 2.4
H Aston Villa possession 57%, shots 9 with 2 on target, corners 4 XG 0.63 Villa possession 43%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 6 XG 2.84
H Spurs possession 46%, shots 16 with 4 on target, corners 7 XG 1.67 Spurs possession 54%, shots 21 with 11 on target, corners 4 XG 2.4
A Forest possession 54%, shots 10 with 3 on target, corners 4 XG 0.81 Forest possession 46%, shots 14 with 4 on target, corners 5 XG 0.71
H Man Utd possession 62%, shots 12 with 4 on targets, corners 5 XG 0.94 Man Utd possession 38%, shots 11 with 4 on targets, corners 5 XG 0.84
A Newcastle possession 47% shots 8 with 2 on target, corners 3 XG 0.8 Newcastle possession 53% shots 20 with 8 on target, corners 5 XG 3.09

Luton Town
A Brighton possession 29% shots 9 with 3 on target, corners 7 XG 1.89 Brighton possession 71% shots 27 with 12 on target, corners 6 XG 4.37
A Chelsea possession 33% shots 11 with 1 on target, corners 4 XG 0.47 Chelsea possession 67% shots 19 with 8 on target, corners 6 XG 3.41
H West Ham possession 39% shots 16 with 1 on target, corners 9 XG 2.02 West Ham possession 61% shots 9 with 3 on target, corners 6 XG 1.23
A Fulham possession 22% shots 7 with 2 on target, corners 2 XG 1.46 Fulham possession 78% shots 13 with 2 on target , corners 6 XG 1.76
H Wolves possession 56% shots 20 with 4 on target, corners 10 XG 2.24 Wolves possession 44% shots 3 with 3 on target, corners 1 XG 0.76
A Everton possession 32% shots 9 with 2 on target, corners 6 Xg 1.51 Everton possession 68% shots 23 with 5 on target, corners 3 XG 3.65

Comparing the average shows
SUFC possession averages. 38%, shots 9 with 3 on target, corners 4 Opposition possession 62%, shots 22 with 9 on target, corners 8
Burnley possession averages 50%, shots 10 with 3 on target, corners 6 Opposition possession 50%, shots 17 with 7 on target, corners 5
Luton possession averages 35%, shots 12 with 2 on target, corners 6. Opposition possession 65%, shots 16 with 6 on target, corners 5

Burnley as expect have by far the best possession average of the 2 promoted teams.
However what is surprising is that both Burnley and Luton have slightly better attacking stats that us
and also slightly better defending stats that us, basically their matches are more closely contested.
The opposition are currently averaging 22 shots every match at our goal, that is a shockingly bad stat.

The XG (taken from Understat.com) is a formula to provide the most fair result based on not just the number of chances but the quality of chance created.
Basically when fans say "we played well and deserved to win", the XG with zero bias follows a formula and advises which team deserved to win.

We can see that during every match we were easily the worse team based on the number and quality of chance created.
So when Hecky said in his post match interview after West Ham we should have more points taking points off both Man City and Spurs, the above shows
both teams outclassed us and it would have been day light robbery if we finished with any points from those games.
Where as Burnley based on chances were better on the day than both Forest and Man Utd.
Luton were outclassed in their first 2 matches but should have beat West Ham and Wolves, however the XG shows they were lucky to draw against Everton.

The average expected goals scored compared are
Luton 1.6 goal (impressive that they create so many chances)
Burney 0.86 goals
Sheff United 0.77 goals, so we're not quite doing enough (chance wise) to get anywhere near averaging ONE goal per match.

The average goals based on chances, the opposition was expected to score
Burnley 2.05 goals
Luton 2.53 goals
Sheff Utd 2.96 goals

So we are currently not comparing well to our fellow promoted rivals.
Luton seem to have no issues creating plenty of good chances every match, with an impressive 1.6 goals, far better than both Burnley and United.

So United are struggling to create chances to enable them to score (the worse in the league)
and when it comes to the defence, based on the number and quality of chances we should be conceding 3 goal every game (again worse in the league).

This proves we can't blame our current points total and position on bad luck.
If anything we've bee slightly lucky and should be on 0 points.

Also if things are so tough due to a lack of funds etc, then why are Luton currently competing better than us, when last season we were better than them?

Before the season I expected a similar season to Warnock's last season, thought we'd be in and around relegation all season and either just stay up or just go down.
So it's not the likely relegation that's the issue. My issue is that at the moment indicators show we could be challenging Derbys record low points record
...where as Luton and Burnley are still losing but at least they're competing and indicators suggest they will pick up points.....sorry for the long post.
 
Perhaps the answer lies in the future. A possible compromise. Heckinbottom has two big problems.

1. He has been dealt a very bad hand by the Prince, and his only outlet is to moan to Lester and MCall.

He is not an experienced manager and has no real experience at Premier leadue level.

Two potential solutions: -

Appoint an older, more experienced father figure type as Director of football. (In the same mould as Hodgson or Ferguson).

Employ a joint coach who is someone who he can get good advice from, and turn to for options when shit goes wrong. Someone young with a growing reputation, (like Beale who was just sacked by Rangers).
 
Surely the lack.of critical thinking is questioning the manager's position in the first place? He's been sent into WW3 with a water pistol and has made us competitive in every game bar one. A new manager won't get better players or a competitive budget so what's the point in replacing him? If we were in the Championship Hecky would be close to the top of the list of incoming managers. It seems like a massive waste of already limited money.
 
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July / August. Look we all know it’s going to be hard. We’re going to struggle big time and more then likely come straight back down. We’ve just not got the money or the players. That’s not the manager’s fault. He’s done well under difficult circumstances and I’d like to see him given the chance to rebuild and go again when we do get relegated. Sacking mangers isn’t the answer.

September / October. He’s got to go.
 
I think it’s reasonable and rational to question if we should really stick with Hecky regardless of performances or results.

I was there at Spurs and West Ham and it was pretty poor. Yes, we nearly got something at Spurs. But this side is struggling with basic stuff. They can’t keep possession and at times it looks like they’re not even trying to. They invite pressure onto themselves all game and seem to be constantly panicking. They also look incredibly vulnerable at set pieces and crosses. All that stuff, more than the results, I find concerning.

Having said that, in my personal opinion, I don’t think replacing Hecky with Wilder is a rational move and I’m strongly against it.

Some of our support point to the glory years under Wilder, which were obviously great. But that was a while ago now. You have to consider what he’s done since then. He was a disaster our last season in the Prem. Plus he failed dismally both at Watford and Boro.

He had one great season in the Prem and one shocking one. Then he’s failed to recreate any of the success he had with United in two attempts since. I’m not saying he’s become a bad manager overnight but I am saying you can’t just recreate what happened before.

You also have to consider the context. Is our current side suited to Wilder’s style? Can you really see him coming in and working well with these players? People will point to how he came in before, but that was in League One and most of those players are gone now or are considerably older.

I feel like getting Wilder in is a pretty desperate move and not based on any real logic other than well it worked well once before and he’s a hero to many fans. It just seems like a total punt rather than a well thought out decision.
 
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If you take the sentiment out of the potential for a wilder return, and look at it as though he never managed us and wasn't a supporter, not in a million years would we consider him. His record since his final season with us has been terrible, his press appearances haven't done him any favours either.

Although he was successful with us in the top two divisions, his record elsewhere suggests he's a league one manager at best. Especially if you take Alan Knill out of the equation.
 
We sold our best two players without replacements, the team and squad overall doesn’t seem like it’s improved for the step up. Transfer business done far too late, looks poor so far and because of that we threw away an easier run of games at the start of the season. We’ve been playing catch up ever since.

Hecky isn’t absolved from blame, but our preparations for a season in the toughest league on the planet couldn’t have been mismanaged in a more tinpot way by the club if they tried.
 
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crazyblade1889 said:
Hypothetically what would we think of Luton if they sacked Rob Edwards now to appoint Nathan Jones?
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Not checked their forum but a Luton fan rang Talksport last week
and he said the mood in the camp is actually quite good, he said they're gradually getting used to the standard and competing well.
He was quite optimistic they would stay up but said even if they fail they will give it a good go.

My issue isn't so much about us being relegated under Hecky, it's more about attitude and performance, we're not giving it a go.
Fair enough it's still early but it's concerning and we should at least be competing better.
 
Sheffsteel said:
Excellent post, can agree with all of that. Hence why I’m not 100% on Wilder, we should acknowledge it's a risk
but I’ve had some doubts on Hecky too since last year. Of course I’ll fully support whoever is manager (whether it's Hecky, Wilder or someone else) and accept Hecky is a decent guy.Also altho I have doubts on Hecky, everyone has strengths and weakness and I accept Hecky has some strengths too. Glad I'm not making the decision.


Agree with the sentiment however when ever we show ambition and go for someone for an outsider, big name with a good CV.
It's weird, the fanbase never seem to accept them and they usually struggle.

We had big Blade Neil Warnock with his pashun for the club.
McCabe wanted to make us more "big time" and link us to a world wide impressive name, his 1st choice was Kenny Dalglish, he approached ex England manager Graham Taylor to become director of football, both turned us down.

Eventually he brought in Captain Marvel Brian Robson as front man with his links and the very highly rated Brian Kidd as assistant to sort out the tactics.
We changed to a keep possession passing style, the fans didn't like it because it was too slow with hardly any goal mouth action.

We reverted to the cheap option, bringing back Blackwell, to revert back to Warnock more direct % football style and we were instantly much better.

In league 1 we showed massive ambition bringing in the best CV available, with the highly rated Nigel Atkins.
He promised good passing football, it never worked, so he was gone.

Then we choose the cheap option bringing in big Blade Chris Wilder, what a story, one of the most impressive rise up the table in recent English history.
Cheltenham Town are currently bottom on league 1, imagine if someone said, in 4 years time they'll be 5th in the PL trying to finish up in the Champions League

Chris left and we showed big ambition, paying loads of money for the best, we brought in Slavisa Jukanovic and his backroom team.
Again the football appeared good, lots of controlled passing keeping possession football, but it was so similar to Robsons early games, too slow allowing defences time to re-organse, so we didn't create much and struggled to gain results.

Slav was sacked and again we choose the cheap in-house option in Hecky.
We reverted to a more direct, give 100% style. We didn't look cultured but it was effective football and we started moving up the table.

Hecky seems to have lost his touch and its decision time.
It's almost like it's written, show ambition going for someone like Graham Potter and he'll struggle and be quickly sacked.
So for the cheap option, who has links to Sheff Utd, like a Wilder or ever a Stuart McCall and it'll be a short term success.
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"...McCabe wanted to make us more "big time" and link us to a world wide impressive name, his 1st choice was Kenny Dalglish, he approached ex England manager Graham Taylor to become director of football, both turned us down..."

Wasn't it the other way round, or am I misremembering this? I thought Dalglish had offered to come in for one season, to steady the ship and get things set up for a better future, and McCabe wanted Robson.
 
Why can't the club chairman come out with a statement regarding the manager, he's either got the job, even if we go down or not, none of these rumours are helping Hecky or the players imo
 
Grappler said:
"...McCabe wanted to make us more "big time" and link us to a world wide impressive name, his 1st choice was Kenny Dalglish, he approached ex England manager Graham Taylor to become director of football, both turned us down..."

Wasn't it the other way round, or am I misremembering this? I thought Dalglish had offered to come in for one season, to steady the ship and get things set up for a better future, and McCabe wanted Robson.
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I think it was Terry Robinson who was more instrumental in bringing Robson to the club.
 
Silent Blade said:
I think it was Terry Robinson who was more instrumental in bringing Robson to the club.
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But am I right in saying that Dalglish didn't turn us down, Silent?

I could be wrong, but seem to think he made the offer to come to us and we decided to look elsewhere.
 
Grappler said:
But am I right in saying that Dalglish didn't turn us down, Silent?

I could be wrong, but seem to think he made the offer to come to us and we decided to look elsewhere.
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There were papers reporting about Dalglish being our target but I don't know what happened in the talks.
 
Pintor75 said:
Why can't the club chairman come out with a statement regarding the manager, he's either got the job, even if we go down or not, none of these rumours are helping Hecky or the players imo
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Unlike Chansiri at SWFC the protocol is club statements are rare and only done as a last resort to clarify unrest and instability.

Can’t see any positives in releasing a club statement. They are hardly going to say “we trust Hecky and he’s here for the full season no matter what”. If there’s zero performance management, accountability or consequence then it removes the motivation to work and try and improve.

The default position is still the same, Hecky will have been asked about expectations and he will have agreed these as being fair. He’s been reasonably backed too regards his targets. So the owner may well be asking for an explanation why his targets aren’t firing. These discussions should remain private. Also as mentioned by others it’s not a case of “let’s sack Hecky”, you need a replacement already lined up to replace him where you’re the repkacemenr is better. Then you need to weight short term with long term. Hecky appears to be ooor for the short term but is ur worth sacrificing this season, writing it off, giving up because you believe Hecky is the right man for the long term?

There’s 2 issues here.
The norm is judge players and managers on results, this can be unfair because circumstances should be taken into account. Many expected us to probably be relegated, so it shouldn’t be about being relegated.

The sensible issue is to judge the manager on performance over a number of games and for some reason we look way off PL standard and the signs are we will challenge Derby’s low points total. No one expected that, so it looks like this season has broken records for our worse ever defeat and could be our worse ever attempt at competing in a league. The players don’t even seem to be trying, which isn’t acceptable.

Surely any intelligent/ normal owner would look to make changes. A new manager might also struggle for points but performances will improve.

Ironically the issue that might save Hecky and keep him in a job is the club up for sale situation. If a sale is close then the Prince might deliberately sleep at the wheel and allow us to stay bottom of the table knowing new owners always like to appoint new owners asap.

They’ll have the perfect excuse if the owners arrive in December, we’re bottom of the league, so they instantly sack Hecky and show ambition by bringing in a big name manager with a good CV. It’s like a fresh start, a new dawn and everyone is excited again .

In the Princes situation he can’t afford to commit to financial expenditure as he’s hoping to sell soon. I reckon either Hecky stays for the new owners to instantly sack him or he managers to persuade Wilder to accept a low paid 8 month context with say a 1 million keep us up bonus and tells him he must work with McCalk and Lester.
 
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It doesn't matter who the manager is if the players aren't good enough and unfortunately that's the position we're in.

We could change managers but I don't think it would make any difference if we can't afford experienced premier league players, which we can't.

So for now I say stick with what we have unless performances show a continual decline.

In the summer many fans seemed to expect the situation we now have and were expressing the view that if we get relegated, which I fully expect we will, at least we would go down with a better team than the one which came up.

Now that it is becoming reality panic is setting in and the realistic outlook of the summer is lost as we head into the gloom of winter.

Surely no one can tell me that they're surprised that we are bottom of the league and still winless?

If you buy Championship players, which we did, you end up with a Championship team.

Nothing to do with the manager, it's just the way it is.
 
Good post but you've got way too much time on your hands. Football is a much simpler game than a lot of people think.
We're getting relegated whether we play with a back 4 or 5. It'll make little difference who the manager is either.
We've got a collection of players who are neither good enough or even fit enough to survive the Premier League. They know it themselves, its evident from their body language. They look such a sorry bunch, devoid of confidence or belief.
We need an injection of cash from the board to provide better players and inspiration from the manager to lift them.
Our board and Heckingbottom are incapable of providing either.
 
Maidenhead said:
Surely no one can tell me that they're surprised that we are bottom of the league and still winless?

If you buy Championship players, which we did, you end up with a Championship team.

Nothing to do with the manager, it's just the way it is.
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Think most people expected us to be in the bottom 3, they expected us to be better than Luton, who have spent less than us.
They expected us to lose many matches but like in previous seaons when we were relegated with Warnock and Wilder, they expect us to compete
have a fee attacks every now and then, create a fee chances and have a fee shots virtually every game,

I expected us to have a similar season we had under Warnock where we are in and around relegation all season.
My view we would either stay up orgs down based on the last match of the season.

Blades didn't expect us to have our biggest ever record defeat
They didn't expect us to be so bad, that we seriously threatren the Derby low points records.
They didn't expect the team to not compete and at times look like they're not even trying,

You say we've bought Championship players but no Championship team (not even Sheff Wed) would lose 8-0 at home to Newcastle.
The other promoted teams Burnley and Luton won't even loose 4-0 to Newcastle.
That game wasn't a case of they had 8 shots and it's was just one of the them days, where all 8 shots went in.
Newcastle could and maybe should've scored 10 or 11 goals, amazing really, would never ever have believed.

A manager can't control results but a manager can control tactics, substations and performance and also should be able to effect confidence and desire/ effort.
 
Sheffsteel said:
Unlike Chansiri at SWFC the protocol is club statements are rare and only done as a last resort to clarify unrest and instability.

Can’t see any positives in releasing a club statement. They are hardly going to say “we trust Hecky and he’s here for the full season no matter what”. If there’s zero performance management, accountability or consequence then it removes the motivation to work and try and improve.

The default position is still the same, Hecky will have been asked about expectations and he will have agreed these as being fair. He’s been reasonably backed too regards his targets. So the owner may well be asking for an explanation why his targets aren’t firing. These discussions should remain private. Also as mentioned by others it’s not a case of “let’s sack Hecky”, you need a replacement already lined up to replace him where you’re the repkacemenr is better. Then you need to weight short term with long term. Hecky appears to be ooor for the short term but is ur worth sacrificing this season, writing it off, giving up because you believe Hecky is the right man for the long term?

There’s 2 issues here.
The norm is judge players and managers on results, this can be unfair because circumstances should be taken into account. Many expected us to probably be relegated, so it shouldn’t be about being relegated.

The sensible issue is to judge the manager on performance over a number of games and for some reason we look way off PL standard and the signs are we will challenge Derby’s low points total. No one expected that, so it looks like this season has broken records for our worse ever defeat and could be our worse ever attempt at competing in a league. The players don’t even seem to be trying, which isn’t acceptable.

Surely any intelligent/ normal owner would look to make changes. A new manager might also struggle for points but performances will improve.

Ironically the issue that might save Hecky and keep him in a job is the club up for sale situation. If a sale is close then the Prince might deliberately sleep at the wheel and allow us to stay bottom of the table knowing new owners always like to appoint new owners asap.

They’ll have the perfect excuse if the owners arrive in December, we’re bottom of the league, so they instantly sack Hecky and show ambition by bringing in a big name manager with a good CV. It’s like a fresh start, a new dawn and everyone is excited again .

In the Princes situation he can’t afford to commit to financial expenditure as he’s hoping to sell soon. I reckon either Hecky stays for the new owners to instantly sack him or he managers to persuade Wilder to accept a low paid 8 month context with say a 1 million keep us up bonus and tells him he must work with McCalk and Lester.
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Agree on all but the Wilder theory, he did great for us but got too big for his boots yet he'd no plan b when under pressure, wouldn't guve him another million,rather take a chance on Potter or Hessenhuttl if we're spending that sort of money
 

ChrisDysonHT said:
Well written and a bit more detailed to my reply last night on another thread

Its a hard one ... we had a transfer embargo when we got promoted so we knew this season was going to be hard even when we could spend we sold our best 2 players.
Did I think we would stay up - nope ... so I am not shocked by this season at all. We have 1 more point than I thought we would have at this time of the season .......... but saying that, he is miles away from being a PL manager and we may end up with a lower points total than Derby and that would be a disaster.
What would b the alternatives?
Wilder? - nope never really worked for Bassett when he came back
Giggs ? - he is desperate for a new job ........ but he will want £100m to spend on ex Man U players or Welsh players
Warnock? He will at least get us past 11 points ... but someone nearly 80??

In summary keep him and let him walk away before his MH is crushed.
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Mark Robins done wonders with nowt and been pissed about,re no having a home ground several times
 
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